If you start ahead of Fabian Cancellara

Langman
Langman Posts: 178
edited September 2009 in Pro race
Its a masive advantage to start just infron of Fabian Cancellara it a TT all you have to do to get silver it would a ppear is let him catch you and then draft him for as long as possibke and the medal is yours - this does seem unfair. Thoughts anyone?
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Comments

  • gavintc
    gavintc Posts: 3,009
    Have a look at the CW article on Wiggins

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... efeat.html
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    Drafting's illegal in TTs...
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    Garry H wrote:
    Drafting's illegal in TTs...

    I think that's the OP's point
    I like bikes...

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  • Langman
    Langman Posts: 178
    It is illegal and that is my point, but also if you have someone in your sight like Cancellara all you have to do is hang on to him. Larsson was caught quickly but held on well to him you can't tell me that he did not benefit by being passed so early.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    He did benefit, but he didn't draft him. Wiggins was benefitting too, and neither of them were doing anything that contravened the rules.
  • Langman
    Langman Posts: 178
    No but had he not started ahead on Cancellara then he may not have won a Silver - I think it makes a huge difference.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Yes and if my uncle was a woman she'd be my aunt

    It was daft starting them so close together but Larsson is the Olympic silver medalist so he ain't no slouch in the chrono.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Langman wrote:
    No but had he not started ahead on Cancellara then he may not have won a Silver - I think it makes a huge difference.
    He had to be able to hang onto Cancellara, which is no mean feat. It's racing, it happens, get over it.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    edited September 2009
    gavintc wrote:
    Have a look at the CW article on Wiggins

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... efeat.html

    "Wiggins accepts Worlds time trial defeat"

    Does he have any choice but to accept it ? He was getting thumped by Cancellara and Larsson and i think his comments re : Larsson are unfair to say the least. A rider cant magic himself out of the way when passed. From what i saw Larsson didnt draft any more than Wiggins.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:

    Does he have any choice but to accept it ? He was getting thumped by Cancellara and Larsson and i think his comments re : Larsson are unfair to say the least. A rider cant magic himself out of the way when passed. From what i saw Larsson didnt draft any more than Wiggins.

    I never thought this day would come but

    +1

    When I read the "accepts defeat" headline I thought exactly the same. Still, as I like to say, a good loser is still a loser. :P
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Blimey. Iain and MG in agreement.

    [looks outside to see if the sky is falling in]

    :D
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Moray Gub wrote:

    "Wiggins accepts Worlds time trial defeat"

    Does he have any choice but to accept it ? He was getting thumped by Cancellara and Larsson and i think his comments re : Larsson are unfair to say the least. A rider cant magic himself out of the way when passed. From what i saw Larsson didnt draft any more than Wiggins.

    To be fair to Wiggins, he didn't write the headline. That was some hack at CW and we know what high regard MG holds them in. :wink:

    Wiggins was fairly gracious, but the comment about Larsson reeks of sour grapes. He was doing much the same when Cancellara powered past him, why is acceptable for him but not for Larsson?
  • andyrr
    andyrr Posts: 1,823
    Wiggins appeared to immediately move to the side after being passed whilst Larson did not - he was trying to get as close to Cancellara as possible (and got a warning from the comm for it too)
    I think, but stand to be corrected, that it is not only illegal to draft but it is illegal to 'take pace' and, if that is the case then Larson was definately taking pace as he was trying to get as close as posslb e to Cancellara whilst not being penalised for being in his draft. Having a faster rider ahead of you but not disappear into the distance is a great carrot in an ITT.
    Wiggins seems to have been determined for his ride to be an ITT whilst Larson was happy to have the assistance of a faster man to, at least visually, hang on to.
    Certainly Larson was going well, no doubt there, but I'm not sure that had the riders been, say 2 or 3 minutes apart at the tail of the field, the result would have been the same.
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    if you have someone in your sight like Cancellara all you have to do is hang on to him.
    :D:D:D
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    andyrr wrote:
    I think, but stand to be corrected, that it is not only illegal to draft but it is illegal to 'take pace' and, if that is the case then Larson was definately taking pace as he was trying to get as close as posslb e to Cancellara whilst not being penalised for being in his draft. Having a faster rider ahead of you but not disappear into the distance is a great carrot in an ITT.
    .


    UCI TT regs - no slipstreaming but no prohibition on taking pace
    (mind you I've seen an ITT stage of a UCI race in the past where the "lesser mortals" rode in 2s and 3s!)

    Racing procedure
    2.4.017 If one rider is caught up by another, he may neither lead nor follow in the slipstream of the rider who caught up.

    2.4.018 A rider, upon catching up with another shall leave a lateral gap of at least 2 metres between himself and the other rider.
    After 1 km, the rider caught up shall ride at least 25 m away from the other.

    2.4.019 If necessary, the commissaire shall force the riders to leave the 2 metre lateral gap and the distance of 25 metres respectively, without prejudice to the penalties provided for in the scale of penalties (article 12.1.040, point 40).

    2.4.020 Riders may not help one another.
    2.4.021 The specific regulations for the event shall indicate if feeding is permitted and which conditions apply.
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Even if you can't draft, having someone ahead of you can help.

    Wiggins wasn't exactly gracious when he crossed the line. His head is getting bigger on a daily basis but the sport would be dull if everyone just said things like "I gave it my best, I prepared in calm and feel content with my ride. Time for a relaxing massage now".
  • bobtbuilder
    bobtbuilder Posts: 1,537
    I think Wiggo's comments are way out of order. He seems to be suggesting that Larsson should have sat up when Cancellara passed him.

    Why on Earth would you sit up with a Worlds medal on the line? He gave 100% effort (as he should). Cancellara catching him isn't his fault!
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    yeah, of course if I was in the worlds TT I just wouldn't let Cancellara catch up with me :D
  • OffTheBackAdam
    OffTheBackAdam Posts: 1,869
    Solution.
    Put Spartacus off 4 minutes after the penultimate rider starts!
    Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    I was watching - and when Spartacus went by Larssen - I thought for SURE Larssen was drafting him.

    No - you should not sit up when passed. And yes - it greatly helps to have someone in front of you as a carrot. I've done it myself and it helps no end.

    But I'm a little surprised that Larssen didn't get busted by the comms for staying in the slipstream for WAY too long. They were quite generous to him I thought.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    wiggo does appear to be getting ahead of himself somewhat...

    martin did the ride of the day ..both larssen and wiggo could pace themselves relative to fabian/each other

    martin was stuck out in front


    OTOH wiggo was unlucky stuffing his gears/chain/brakes? he was closing down on Martin rapidly towards the end
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    Solution.
    Put Spartacus off 4 minutes after the penultimate rider starts!

    They could have set him off the day after and he'd still have caught the man in front if he'd wanted to ;)
  • Roscobob
    Roscobob Posts: 344
    You have to feel for the guy that started after him! By the time he got back they'd dismantled the finish line etc :lol:
  • andyrr
    andyrr Posts: 1,823
    I feel that Larssen definately got a definite advantage which I would deem as unfair (but having said that I would probably be as tempted as he was to try to stay as close to the faster rider as I thought I could do)
    I thought that Larssen might have started to blow towards the latter stages but he didn't seem to - he's obviously one of the worlds top TT'ers plus the thought of a silver medal would have spurred him on.
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    iainf72 wrote:
    It was daft starting them so close together
    Why did they have the large time gaps (about 40 mins?) between the different groups?
    iainf72 wrote:
    Larsson is the Olympic silver medalist so he ain't no slouch in the chrono.
    Larsson also finished 4th in the 2004 WM TT and 5th in the 2008 WM TT.
    Langman wrote:
    Its a masive advantage to start just infron of Fabian Cancellara … Thoughts anyone?
    It could also be argued that Cancellara had an advantage in that he had all but one of his 4 main rivals just ahead of him. He said afterwards that to catch the rider in front very early on was both an intention and a motivation for him.
    One could also argue that Zirbel used McCann, and Brajkovic used Vino, as rabbit. Sometimes it's the luck of the draw and that's that.


    Of McCann, both him and France’s Peraud perhaps deserve a bit more recognition considering who they had around them during the race. If McCann had got off to a better start he might have pipped Vino for 8th place at the end.
  • SBezza
    SBezza Posts: 2,173
    It is unfortunate that they were set off so close to each other, a 2 minute gap would have been better.

    When McCann was passed, he immediately went to the side of Zirbel, he never rode in his slipstream, I can't say that was true for Larsson. He would have got an advantage just by staying with Cancellara, let alone the drafting he was doing, only if he did for a short while.

    Now staying with Cancellara isn't a problem, that is just nuance of time trialling, it is the riding directly behind him that is wrong, he should have moved to the side straight away to keep out of the slipstream.

    With TT, the faster riders always have an advantage of the chase, as you are normally seeded slow to fast, Wiggo had just as much as a carrot as Cancellara, he was just not as fast to catch his minute man
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    SBezza wrote:
    It is unfortunate that they were set off so close to each other, a 2 minute gap would have been better.
    from a fairness POV I tend to agree


    but from a spectacle POV it was amusing watching everyone trying to hold cancellara as he roared through...

    it was entertainment


    at the end of the day I think the medals went to the right(? caveat etc)guys...maybe wiggo for bronze but that was a mechanical... Larssen was well ahead enough that he would still probably have snatched the siver with out cancellaras pace setting..

    I tend to disagree that larssen got much of a real tow off fabian


    of all the riders gaining a real benefit of being paced by his minute man wiggo benefited the most! (until his bike broke)
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    Langman wrote:
    It is illegal and that is my point, but also if you have someone in your sight like Cancellara all you have to do is hang on to him. Larsson was caught quickly but held on well to him you can't tell me that he did not benefit by being passed so early.

    Ahhhh, I see. Didn't think he was drafting though, just taking pace.
  • claudb
    claudb Posts: 212
    You just have to look at the result to see how much of an advantage Larsson got.
    He was caught for a minute at Km16 by Cancellara and lost only another 37 Seconds in the next 32 Km's. Does that not suggest he got a BIG advantage (OK he did have to be strong enough to hold on). I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that they are SaxoBank teammates too !!!!
  • SBezza
    SBezza Posts: 2,173
    mididoctors wrote:
    [I tend to disagree that larssen got much of a real tow off fabian


    of all the riders gaining a real benefit of being paced by his minute man wiggo benefited the most! (until his bike broke)

    You are joking aren't you, the effects of drafting in a TT are massive. Wiggo never caught his minute man so had no advantage, Tony Martin was up on all of the splits to Wiggo , Wiggo was just narrowing down those splits towards the end, and probably would have overhauled Martin by the finish, though we will never know that now.

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