shamals vs ird/tune/cx-ray build

cookiemonster

I need a new pair of wheels for the cervelo as i'm shifting my current set (open pro's on dt240's laced 28/32) to my shiny new audax frame from roberts, when it arrives

The new wheels will be used for sportives, fast club runs (slow or wet and it'll be the roberts instead), some european stuff and the occasional crit / road tt / event. I'm 73kg, and live in London - so crappy road surfaces are part of the deal (as I guess most of us in the UK have to deal with). I've loved the open pro / dt240 combination; its been terrific - light enough for marmottes, cingle du ventoux's, etc, comfortable for 8 hour rides and generally unbustable. However I would like something different - bladed and fewer spokes, deeper rim, etc, mainly just because I can. Also, if I'm doing another week in the alps or something where I want comfort and servicability, then its easy enough to stick the open pros back on the cervelo.

Really down to two choices - Shamal Ultras at around £600 for a 1400g wheelset. Get great reviews, aero and reliable but the drawbacks are occasional reports of a fairly hard ride, and of course difficult to repair/service.

The alternative is a pair of IRD Niobium 30mm Aero rims laced up 20/24 with sapim cx-rays to Tune mig/mag hubs. Similar cost - around £600, and similar weight at around 1400g. Positives are they're probably more comfy than shamals, but the big downside is the Tune hubs - seems to be questions around their reliability for anything beyond an "event" wheel. I like to stay down at the 1400g mark (otherwise I should get the shamals) so would rather not go with a heavier hub.

I like handbuilts (like my open pros), but I dont think they have the mystical quality sometimes talked about - and I wonder at this level whether I'm best getting the shamals.

Any views?

jon

maddog 2

I've got two pairs of the mig/mags and though they are delicate and need setting up properly, if you're careful then they do last okay.

The two things I've found is 1) the alu freehub is soft - SRAM cassettes suit it better than Shimano ones I've found, and 2) the bearings are very sensitive to the correct preload. But get it right and they'll be fine.

I think my main issue would be whether the low spoke count and skinny spokes can build into something stiff enough. Weight isn't everything.... he says. I've not ridden the spec you describe but based on the wheels I have ridden - mostly handbuilts of various specs - I tend to prefer the stiffer/heavier builds over the really light ones myself.

cookiemonster

Yes - thats another negative against the handbuilts. The shamals are 16/21 or something, but plenty stiff whereas the niobiums at 20/24 may not be. I guess thats the big plus of the factory wheels.

Chip \'oyler

I wouldn't rule out the handbuilts. I suspect you're looking at wheelsmith's website.

If so I'd recommend the Novatec Lite hubs. I had a pair built onto the gigantex carbon rims. They're a good smooth hub, and would only be 70g heavier than the Tunes. And a lot cheaper too! In fact you'd probably be looking at nearly half the price

cswebbo

Campag whhels are virtually bombproof.
2nd in Paris Roubaix on Hyperon Carbons - Pozzato
1st in Paris Roubaix on Nucleon - Backstead
1st in Tour of Flanders on Proton- Ballan

Most of the people i know (me included) have never broke a spoke or needed to re-true a wheel in last 10 years.

Shamal Ultra/Euros/Nucleon/Proton user.

giant_man

Interesting thread, I've been thinking of a pair of handbuilts with tune hubs myself. Wanted a bling wheelset for the winter months, light as well of course, and bulletproof. Maybe the Tunes aren't as good as I previously thought.

The wheel pages on poshbikes do turn my head must say .......

nickd01

How about some of these:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Shima ... 360030874/

1380g I beleive.

I've got a pair and they're fantastic.

Chip \'oyler

I've used a pair of Zondas for years. They've been superb. However I ripped a few spokes in the front one in a crit (a rogue pedal!). Getting hold of replacement spokes has been a nightmare. In the end the LBS had to bend some plain gauge spokes in order to do some sort of repair.

It's for this fact that I'm now getting handbuilts in future. It's not that factory wheels are crap - in fact in my own experience and as other posters have pointed out, Campag wheels are superb and to a point, bombproof. But if you do end up needing to repair spokes then you're stuffed. Perhaps this is done for a reason by the big brands?

Handbuilts using traditional spokes are so much easier to sort out

cookiemonster

Nickd - I'm on campag otherwise the 7850's would be top choice

My take on the handbuilt vs factory debate is that handbuilt wheels are generally better performers on the qualitative measures, whereas factory wheels score higher on quantative. So, if you want comfort, resilience, serviceabiliy - all stuff thats hard to measure, then handbuilts are the way to go. For weight and aeroness then factory wheels have the edge. There's little difference in cost, at least at the high end (a strong sub-1400g ali clincher is tough to build - something has got to give, be it reliability or comfort)

Tune hubs - just considering them myself, but I definetly dont see them as a winter wheelset from what Ive read and the opinion of the various wheelbuilders. DT240's are 100g heavier for the pair and a better bet for more general use.

Got to say that I think its going to be the shamals....

cookiemonster

cswebbo

Any opinions on the shamals? anything worth knowing about before going down that path?

jon

magliaceleste

Another vote for Shamals. They've been great this year. Stiff, light and stayed true. The two previous years I used Zondas which were/are also perfect.

You can also pick them up at far less than RRP. If you don't want the 2-way version then they can be had for £560.

The 2010 version weill be available in black, whereas the (cheaper) 2009 version is gold or titanium only.

giant_man

cookiemonster wrote:

Nickd - I'm on campag otherwise the 7850's would be top choice

My take on the handbuilt vs factory debate is that handbuilt wheels are generally better performers on the qualitative measures, whereas factory wheels score higher on quantative. So, if you want comfort, resilience, serviceabiliy - all stuff thats hard to measure, then handbuilts are the way to go. For weight and aeroness then factory wheels have the edge. There's little difference in cost, at least at the high end (a strong sub-1400g ali clincher is tough to build - something has got to give, be it reliability or comfort)

Tune hubs - just considering them myself, but I definetly dont see them as a winter wheelset from what Ive read and the opinion of the various wheelbuilders. DT240's are 100g heavier for the pair and a better bet for more general use.

Got to say that I think its going to be the shamals....

No you're right. Tune hubs shouldn't be on a winter wheelset, they're far too nice for that. Perhaps I was being a little too generous with my wants there .....

neil_pcp

Had a pair of shamals for 4 months now and love them, stiff no flex out of the saddle and spin up quickly. When i first got them however I felt the ride was too harsh and wondered if i had made a mistake. I replaced the conti 4000 with hutchison tubeless which transformed the ride. Now get the benifits of a stiff wheelset with a ride similar to a 32 spoke wheel with clinchers on. I think it is worthwile paying the extra if buying these to get the 2 way fit to allow you this flexability.

neil

Monty Dog

I've had a pair of Shamals for 6 months - typical Campagnolo build quality - not as stiff (harsh) as Ksyriums SLs and no reason to expect they'll not last for years. In terms of the handbuild option, why not look at hubs from FRM or PMP?

aracer

Well I'd vote for the handbuilts. In fact I have something very similar myself - AC 420 rims (a little bit deeper than the IRD rims, but otherwise pretty similar) laced to an AC Micro front hub and a Campag Record rear hub with CX-Rays. 18/24 spokes. The hubs are a lot cheaper than Tune, but very slightly lighter between them - possibly a slight reliability worry with the Micro front hub, but it's a front so you just replace the bearings if need be (not that i've had to yet), whilst the rear is obviously bomb proof. You might wonder how I get a 24 spoke wheel with a Record hub - by triplet lacing in the same way a Shamal is! Total cost ~£350, though they'd probably be a bit more now what with the exchange rate.

Not that the Tune hubs are anything like as fragile as some are suggesting. I've got Tune hubs on my MTB which have seen all sorts of horrible conditions which must be far worse than anything you'd ever get on the road. Still going strong after over 3 years. Would happily have some on all weather wheels on the road bike - the only downside being the cost. I have to wonder whether all those on here criticising them have any direct experience or are simply relying on internet hearsay. Meanwhile my older set of MTB wheels have a DT240 rear hub, and that's needed a lot more maintenance than people seem to suggest is necessary for those!

If you do go for the IRD rims, it's worth pointing out that Halo Mercury rims are exactly the same thing and available in the UK probably for less money.

My take on the handbuilt vs factory debate is that handbuilt wheels are generally better performers on the qualitative measures, whereas factory wheels score higher on quantative.

I'd disagree on at least some of that. Certainly on aero, the handbuilts with IRD rims will almost certainly be more aero than Shamals. Meanwhile I'm less than convinced that Shamals with 16/21 spokes will be any stiffer than the handbuilts with 20/24 on a pretty stiff rim. I don't suppose anybody will believe me that wheels have a negligible effect on comfort though :roll:

Don't get me wrong, the Shamals are fine wheels for factory wheels - nearly went for some myself. Just that I reckon the handbuilts are better,

Runoutofgears

NIckd01, from what I've seen of them, the Shimano carbon/alu clinchers are fine wheels and at that price reasonable value, problem is they are sold out! a familiar story as I tried to buy some at the previous price, (sub £500) earlier this year, ended up with Shamals, but will probably try DT240/OP's next time to see what all the fuss is about.

term1te

Interesting thread, I was thinking of doing something similar. I've got some OPs on DA hubs and have been very pleased with them, but also want something a little more bling for next year, looking to improve my pb on a very flat fast 180 km race around lake Geneva. I've looked into building up some AC420s on to DT240 hubs, but can't find the AC rims for sale anywhere. Anyone know of a supplier?

The IRDs were a second choice, so its good to know they are the same as the Halo Mercurys. It shows the power of marketing and pricing, I'd assumed the Halos where not as good as the IRDs. I'm tempted by the white rims, built up with white CX spokes, but can't decide if this would just look wrong.

Chip \'oyler

Are the Halo wheels built with 'normal' spokes?

If so they do look a very good buy.

nickd01

One quick note about the IRD rims, as I have a set of wheels built with them (IRD Niobiums, CX-Rays, American Classic 32H FH, PowerTap SL+ Rear, 32H - all up approx 1500g)

The rims are a pig to get tyres on and off, both my specific turbo-trainer tyre, and a couple of "normal" tyres are hard work! I lothe having to change them. Thought it's worth mentioning as I really find it an issue as I swap tyres a lot with them.

gelbvieh

My penny for what it's worth is that the Tune mig70/mag190 hubs are worth it. I have a pair built up on DT Swiss R1.1 rims with aero spokes, 26 front wheel radial, 32 rear wheel double laced. Been on the bike about 18 months. Used for racing and day to day riding. Never needed anything done to them.

I agree they are almost too good for the winter but they make my other wheels (shimano) seem like rubbish so I now use them all the time. I use them with Tune skewers and wouldn't change to anything else.

The Tune Mig70/Mag190 are designed for both road and mountain bike use.

cswebbo

Hello,

I've had the Shamal Ultra two years. Very rigid in comparison to the Nucleon. Also lighter despite deeper rim, they accelerate quicker when getting out the saddle. This was very noticable and not some marketing nonsence. The offset is a slight loss in comfort, although with a 23mm 'open tubular' type tyre, comfort is more than acceptable to me and i am very light.
I am going to go back to the Nucleons from this weekend (they have not been used since i got the Shamals) to see what difference feels like in reverse.

If you can still get them for under £600 then i would say that is reasonable. The rrp price is a joke- only carbon rimmed wheels justifiable at those prices.

giant_man

gelbvieh wrote:

My penny for what it's worth is that the Tune mig70/mag190 hubs are worth it. I have a pair built up on DT Swiss R1.1 rims with aero spokes, 26 front wheel radial, 32 rear wheel double laced. Been on the bike about 18 months. Used for racing and day to day riding. Never needed anything done to them.

I agree they are almost too good for the winter but they make my other wheels (shimano) seem like rubbish so I now use them all the time. I use them with Tune skewers and wouldn't change to anything else.

The Tune Mig70/Mag190 are designed for both road and mountain bike use.

Where did you get yours built if you don't mind me asking gelbvieh?

aracer

Term1te wrote:

I've looked into building up some AC420s on to DT240 hubs, but can't find the AC rims for sale anywhere. Anyone know of a supplier?

http://www.xx-light-bikes.de/shop/pi-37 ... egoryId=38

term1te

aracer wrote:

Term1te wrote:

I've looked into building up some AC420s on to DT240 hubs, but can't find the AC rims for sale anywhere. Anyone know of a supplier?

http://www.xx-light-bikes.de/shop/pi-37 ... egoryId=38

Vielen Dank!

Mozza1

I’m hijacking this thread slightly……..
Got 2 pairs of wheels DA Carbon Laminates (super; light, fast rolling & stiff but worries me about breaking a spoke on the road) & Open Pro/Ultegra hubs (not super; heavy, slow rolling but peace of mind with 36 spokes).
What I need is a halfway house wheelset maybe along the lines of IRD rims/DA hubs…..now then when I spoke to someone at Paul Hewitt he advised that Paul doesn’t like building wheels with none or only single eyeleted rims. This is because the spokes can pull through the rim which doesn’t happen with double eyeleted Open Pro rims. Aren’t the likes of IRD rims eyelet less & therefore not a long term proposition?

gelbvieh

Giant mancp I got my wheels from Starbike in Germany. They were good to deal with and my order arrived with no worries, www.starbike.com

Did look at getting Lifecycle UK in Bildeston, Suffolk to build up as below as they recommended the wheels to me but I got a much better exchange rate at the time with the Euro.

Got Tune Standard RR Shimano. Whoops note rear hub is Mag 180 not Mag 190. I also got Tune AC14 skewers. Run with Sram Red. Love them. Got red hubs, red skewers and red nipples with silver R1.1 rims and silver DT Swiss aero lite spokes.

Wheels look and run great on my Merida Target 6.

wildmoustache

aracer wrote:

Well I'd vote for the handbuilts. In fact I have something very similar myself - AC 420 rims (a little bit deeper than the IRD rims, but otherwise pretty similar) laced to an AC Micro front hub and a Campag Record rear hub with CX-Rays. 18/24 spokes. The hubs are a lot cheaper than Tune, but very slightly lighter between them - possibly a slight reliability worry with the Micro front hub, but it's a front so you just replace the bearings if need be (not that i've had to yet), whilst the rear is obviously bomb proof. You might wonder how I get a 24 spoke wheel with a Record hub - by triplet lacing in the same way a Shamal is! Total cost ~£350, though they'd probably be a bit more now what with the exchange rate.

Not that the Tune hubs are anything like as fragile as some are suggesting. I've got Tune hubs on my MTB which have seen all sorts of horrible conditions which must be far worse than anything you'd ever get on the road. Still going strong after over 3 years. Would happily have some on all weather wheels on the road bike - the only downside being the cost. I have to wonder whether all those on here criticising them have any direct experience or are simply relying on internet hearsay. Meanwhile my older set of MTB wheels have a DT240 rear hub, and that's needed a lot more maintenance than people seem to suggest is necessary for those!

If you do go for the IRD rims, it's worth pointing out that Halo Mercury rims are exactly the same thing and available in the UK probably for less money.

My take on the handbuilt vs factory debate is that handbuilt wheels are generally better performers on the qualitative measures, whereas factory wheels score higher on quantative.

I'd disagree on at least some of that. Certainly on aero, the handbuilts with IRD rims will almost certainly be more aero than Shamals. Meanwhile I'm less than convinced that Shamals with 16/21 spokes will be any stiffer than the handbuilts with 20/24 on a pretty stiff rim. I don't suppose anybody will believe me that wheels have a negligible effect on comfort though :roll:

Don't get me wrong, the Shamals are fine wheels for factory wheels - nearly went for some myself. Just that I reckon the handbuilts are better,

Is the rim assymetrically drilled to match what I assume is a 32 hole hub laced every other hole on DS and every third hold on the NDS?

Cranks

gelbvieh wrote:

Giant mancp I got my wheels from Starbike in Germany. They were good to deal with and my order arrived with no worries, www.starbike.com

Did look at getting Lifecycle UK in Bildeston, Suffolk to build up as below as they recommended the wheels to me but I got a much better exchange rate at the time with the Euro.

No wonder our financial situation is in a state.

SUPPORT UK BUSINESSES

wildmoustache

Cranks wrote:

gelbvieh wrote:

Giant mancp I got my wheels from Starbike in Germany. They were good to deal with and my order arrived with no worries, www.starbike.com

Did look at getting Lifecycle UK in Bildeston, Suffolk to build up as below as they recommended the wheels to me but I got a much better exchange rate at the time with the Euro.

No wonder our financial situation is in a state.

SUPPORT UK BUSINESSES

At what price differential would it be reasonable to buy from a non UK business?

juggler

I recently bought some Shamal Ultras, there have been various posts on forums saying they are too rigid and uncomfortable, must say have not found that at all, quite ok on 100 mile ride. May depend on tyres, frame, saddle etc.... but don;t be put of by anyone saying that in my view... and the roads round here a pretty rough.....

Yes light and they spin up nicely. I'm a fan of Bontrager at that price point, so may depend on whether you are running Campag or Shimano and want the wheels to 'match'.

gelbvieh

No wonder our financial situation is in a state.

SUPPORT UK BUSINESSES

I couldn't agree more Cranks but I am a kiwi and live, work and play in New Zealand. I would have brought here in New Zealand if Tune hubs were available here at that time. So please accept my apologises for not buying British.[