Peak Power

robrauy

I had a quick blast on a Wattbike at the London stage of the Tour of Britain. The idea was to see the maximum power you could reach over 30 secs or so.
I found it pretty discouraging to manage only 890 Watts, whereas most people seemed to manage 1100+ Watts - especially as I've been doing loads of hill reps recently

Next season I'm hoping to carry on the improvement in my sportive times and hopefully do a few races, and also spend more time on the front of our weekly club runs. I'm around 5ft 8 inches and 150 pounds BTW.

What I'd like to know is if this an important measurement of performance, and if so, what do I need to do to improve it ?

BeaconRuth

Your maximum power for 30 seconds is just about the most irrelevant measure if your aim is to be good at riding sportives and to improve on clubruns. Arguably it might help in the finishing sprint of a road race but you've got to get to the end of a race in the bunch or a break before that's going to come in useful.

The average power you can sustain for 20 minutes or an hour would be far more relevant.

Ruth

bompington

Yeah but we all want to know, don't we? I suspect for us guys that it's just a proxy for measuring testosterone, or certain other measures of manhood

robrauy

bompington wrote:

Yeah but we all want to know, don't we? I suspect for us guys that it's just a proxy for measuring testosterone, or certain other measures of manhood

Absolutely

Thanks Ruth, I was hoping someone would say that !

So is there no correlation between the maximum power output over a short period and the ability to mainitain a high sustained power output ?

Bronzie

robrauy wrote:

So is there no correlation between the maximum power output over a short period and the ability to mainitain a high sustained power output ?

There is................up to a point:
http://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

But the shape of your critical power curve will depend on your physiology and the type of training you do - ie a track sprinter will obviously have very high power outputs at short durations, but relatively less power at longer durations than someone who trains purely for longer events

Anonymous

My critical power curve isn't a curve at all but a flat line that starts at 1800 watts and stays there up to 2 hours where it slowly but imperceptibly starts to drop.

BeaconRuth

Bronzie wrote:

robrauy wrote:

So is there no correlation between the maximum power output over a short period and the ability to mainitain a high sustained power output ?

There is................up to a point:
http://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

But the shape of your critical power curve will depend on your physiology and the type of training you do - ie a track sprinter will obviously have very high power outputs at short durations, but relatively less power at longer durations than someone who trains purely for longer events

I don't think the article or the critical power curve described in it really have anything to do with a 30-second maximum power, Bronzie. Everything below 1-min in duration is almost wholly anaerobic and the article is predicting aerobic power outputs only.

It is possible for a world-class endurance athlete to be as weak as a kitten when asked to do a very short maximal effort - so to answer Robrauy, I would say there is extremely little (if not no) correlation.

Ruth

Murr X

robrauy wrote:

I had a quick blast on a Wattbike at the London stage of the Tour of Britain. The idea was to see the maximum power you could reach over 30 secs or so.
I found it pretty discouraging to manage only 890 Watts, whereas most people seemed to manage 1100+ Watts - especially as I've been doing loads of hill reps recently

I would guess that the accuracy of the bikes is suspect and were you using clipless pedals?

When you say most people do you mean other cyclists that regulary train or do you mean Joe public?There is no way the average man off the street could generate 1000+ Watts and there sure as heck aren't many that can average 1100 Watts for 30secs. 8)

robrauy

I think the Watt Bikes have a pretty good repuatation - was using toe clips, not straps..

There were plenty of Joe public there getting well over a 1000W, but this was for max power over 30 secs, not sustained !

Escargot

Did you manage to get the weights of these guys ?

You seem to be pretty lean so 1100watts could be poor if the other guys weighed something closer to 200lbs.

Alex_Simmons/RST

BeaconRuth wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

robrauy wrote:

So is there no correlation between the maximum power output over a short period and the ability to mainitain a high sustained power output ?

There is................up to a point:
http://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

But the shape of your critical power curve will depend on your physiology and the type of training you do - ie a track sprinter will obviously have very high power outputs at short durations, but relatively less power at longer durations than someone who trains purely for longer events

I don't think the article or the critical power curve described in it really have anything to do with a 30-second maximum power, Bronzie. Everything below 1-min in duration is almost wholly anaerobic and the article is predicting aerobic power outputs only.

It is possible for a world-class endurance athlete to be as weak as a kitten when asked to do a very short maximal effort - so to answer Robrauy, I would say there is extremely little (if not no) correlation.

Ruth

As Ruth suggest, the CP model doesn't apply too well for very short duration efforts. Nevertheless, it can be used to provide an estimate of your anaerobic work capacity (J) but you need two mostly aerobic duration maximal efforts, one of about 3-5 minutes and one of about 20-25 min.

The power the CP model does predict is a combination of your aerobic power and your AWC.

For different reasons, the CP model does not provide very good prediction of power for ride much longer than an hour.

When looking at components of fitness, one should always scale to body mass to some degree, e.g. W/kg or W/kg^0.67

Sound like that unit needs some calibration anyway.

Bronzie

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Sound like that unit needs some calibration anyway.

Interested as to why you think these figures are suspect Alex? Surely MAX power outputs of around 1000W achieved during a 30-sec all out effort would be pretty typical wouldn't they?

Robrauy, did you get an AVERAGE power figure for your 30 second effort as well? This would be a bit more useful to know (but still fairly irrelevant unless your are a track sprinter).

Alex_Simmons/RST

Bronzie wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Sound like that unit needs some calibration anyway.

Interested as to why you think these figures are suspect Alex? Surely MAX power outputs of around 1000W achieved during a 30-sec all out effort would be pretty typical wouldn't they?

Robrauy, did you get an AVERAGE power figure for your 30 second effort as well? This would be a bit more useful to know (but still fairly irrelevant unless your are a track sprinter).

Ah - I was thinking they meant > 1000W average for 30-seconds.

A peak of 1000W is no big deal.

bompington

NapoleonD wrote:

My critical power curve isn't a curve at all but a flat line that starts at 1800 watts and stays there up to 2 hours where it slowly but imperceptibly starts to drop.

Well if you're starting off at such a gentle cruise then that explains it doesn't it?

robrauy

Bronzie wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Sound like that unit needs some calibration anyway.

Interested as to why you think these figures are suspect Alex? Surely MAX power outputs of around 1000W achieved during a 30-sec all out effort would be pretty typical wouldn't they?

Robrauy, did you get an AVERAGE power figure for your 30 second effort as well? This would be a bit more useful to know (but still fairly irrelevant unless your are a track sprinter).

Sadly not.. The whole thing has got me thinking about how much better power is as an absolute performance measurement compared to hr...Just wish the cost of the kit wasn't so prohibitive...

Alex_Simmons/RST

Bronzie wrote:

robrauy wrote:

So is there no correlation between the maximum power output over a short period and the ability to mainitain a high sustained power output ?

There is................up to a point:
http://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

But the shape of your critical power curve will depend on your physiology and the type of training you do - ie a track sprinter will obviously have very high power outputs at short durations, but relatively less power at longer durations than someone who trains purely for longer events

Just to be a little pedantic....

There is only one Critical Power (as described in exercise physiology). There is no CP curve, or different CP values (as Friel often uses).

There is/are:
- a curve that shows our mean maximal power over various durations
- predictions of power output for various duration based on the Critical Power model

tri-sexual

i would be very interested to know how many watts a "pro" cyclist can generate in such a 30 sec test.

how would someone like chris hoy compare to someone like lance armstrong or contador in such a test?

how many watts can chris hoy generate when compared to victoria pendleton?

how does the weight of the athlete affect the result? a heavier more powerful rider can surely generate more power than a lighter rider but on equipment such as a wattbike the power of a rider does not take into account of a rider weight so a professional 18 stone rugby player may generate more watts than a 11 stone tour rider but the power to weight ratio would surely be in the pro riders favour.

Bronzie

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

There is/are:
- a curve that shows our mean maximal power over various durations
- predictions of power output for various duration based on the Critical Power model

Yes, thanks for the clarification - I'd already twigged that I was getting the 2 concepts mixed up :oops:

Bronzie

tri-sexual wrote:

i would be very interested to know how many watts a "pro" cyclist can generate in such a 30 sec test.

This spreadsheet answers most of those queries:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/694 ... ing_v4.xls

As I understand it, the 5 sec and 1 min "World Class" figures are from track sprinters rather than road riders, so it's quite possible that someone with an FTP of 6.4W/kg could not get near 24W/kg over 5 seconds. And vice versa!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Bronzie wrote:

As I understand it, the 5 sec and 1 min "World Class" figures are from track sprinters rather than road riders, so it's quite possible that someone with an FTP of 6.4W/kg could not get near 24W/kg over 5 seconds. And vice versa!

Actually I would say it's a physiological impossibility.

scherrit

Power measuring kit seems to be getting more affordable, not less....

Wired powertap hubs are coming in at around £550, I think? Prolly get a used set-up for a bit less, tho' I've seen wireless on the web for around £700?
Cheers,
S.

Bronzie

Hehee...........check out how you compare in the Wattbike Peak Power Rankings:
http://www.wattbikeranking.com/ranking?c=0

And from a recent blog entry:

WattBike wrote:

Jamie Staff introduced a whole new level of power, with a max power in the 200m sprint of 2080Watts and a time of 8.96 seconds

fnb1

if you can average 890 watts for 30 secs I think you must be pretty well placed for trying out for the sprint squad for 2012. if 'they' are averaging 1100 watts for 30 secs they probably already in the sprint squad. I guess given your height and weight you are peaking at 890 watts, which is entirely respecatble.