Has Lance used rEPO and Doping techniques in his career?

mfin

Vote away... just interesting to see what the bikeradar community of people think really.

This is all regardless of whether you like him or not, just whether you think he's ever doped, simple as that, just to see what the %s end up like, be good to see the votes, perhaps it will be dominated by the 'dont knows?'.

jim one

This really is not a thread you should have started

Pokerface

Yeah - cause it's been a few quiet days since a battle of Armstrong has been waged on the site.

mfin

Yeah... but its only a vote isn't it... rather than the discussion of the ins and outs of it all. Sure someone will feel the need to turn it into a discussion about it but it might just be interesting to see what people vote instead of all the 'trying to change people's minds'.

disgruntledgoat

Meanwhile in Aurelio's secret bunker...

"My Armstrong senses are tingling!"

The Prodigy

jim one wrote:

This really is not a thread you should have started

Might as well, it could be see some new and interesting debate

desweller

A vote is not far enough IMO.

Suggest bicycle jousting (using those annoying flags that recumbent riders have as lances) between members of the pro- and con-Armstrong camps as a means of settling the debate.

BikingBernie

Pity that the poll is probably skewed by the variation in terms used for each group. (I've read up on it. vs. I've read enough.)

I have a feeling that for the average Armstrongite, 'enough' means reading any article that is critical of their messiah! On the other hand to say that one has 'read up' on something implies that you have made a pretty thorough study of the available evidence. (And I would suggest that anyone who does this and still 'believes' Armstrong was clean is allowing blind faith to ride roughshod over rationality).

I bet most of those who have ticked 'no' and say the have 'read enough' haven’t read a fraction of the evidence that stands against him.

xraymtb

I ticked 'Don't Know' because I haven't read anything conclusive that says he did or did not dope.

That said, I get the feeling I've missed out on a lot - anyone got any pointers to online articles or reports?

Art Vandelay

xraymtb wrote:

That said, I get the feeling I've missed out on a lot - anyone got any pointers to online articles or reports?

What have you done!

BikingBernie

xraymtb wrote:

I ticked 'Don't Know' because I haven't read anything conclusive that says he did or did not dope. That said, I get the feeling I've missed out on a lot - anyone got any pointers to online articles or reports?

Here are two links for starters. Or you could just seach this very forum.

"So there is no doubt in my mind he (Lance Armstrong) took EPO during the '99 Tour."

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interview ... l-ashenden

UCI experts do not believe in Armstrong

It may be that Lance Armstrong never officially tested positive, but according to Robin Paris Otto, one of UCI's anti-doping experts and the man who in 2000 developed the first analytical method for the detection of EPO, there is evidence that the opposite is true.

...He adds that the results which showed that the American was doped in1999 must be considered to be valid from a scientific point of view . "The methods used were valid. It is clear that the question mark concerning whether Armstrong was doped really is more of a legal than scientific nature. So there is scientific evidence that he was doped in1999 and that he took epo. To deny it would be to lie. "

http://www.feltet.dk/index.php?id_paren ... yhed=17128

El Imbatido

Try this one

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16226502/Lance-Armstrong-Doping-History

Or this

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2132106/m/gregstef.mp3

Second link is an mp3 of the call Greg Lemond had with Stephanie McMahon (unsure on last name, it escapes me at the moment) who worked for oakley and was apparently in the hospital room when he admitted to usings PEDs


Read and listen to them and then draw your own conclusions based on them and everything else you have heard.

redddraggon

12 naive people so far

BikingBernie

El Imbatido wrote:

Try this one

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16226502/Lance-Armstrong-Doping-History

Or this

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2132106/m/gregstef.mp3

Second link is an mp3 of the call Greg Lemond had with Stephanie McMahon (unsure on last name, it escapes me at the moment) who worked for oakley and was apparently in the hospital room when he admitted to usings PEDs

That was Stephanie McIlvain.

Also interesting, the hard to find English translation of L.A. Confidentiel. (See below). When this was first circulated Armstrong's legal Rottweiler’s went so far as to trace people who posted links to it on forums, demanding that they delete all copies they had in their possession and threatening legal action if they ever played a part in 'distributing' the materiel in the future. As a consequence it was effectively removed from the Internet.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/81ba27/ ... s_1_50_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0ae26g ... 51_100_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/aaa0f2/ ... 01_150_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/81b9c5/n/BigTex_4_pdf

Another hard to find piece of evidence can be found below. This links to a pdf of the full revelations of Jesus Manzano. In it Manzano notes that the team doctors at both Kelme and USP /Disco were good friends of a haematologist who ran the lab used by the UCI to do blood testing, and that the haematologist used to tip off the team doctors when the UCI 'vampires' were about to pay a visit. This story was translated and repeated in full by the English speaking press, with the exception of the bit implicating USP/ Discovery. You can't even find the original in the L'Equipe archives anymore.

http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf

Translation:

I want to give you an example, something I've never spoken about except to the police up until now. It concerns one of the four Spanish Laboratories credited by the UCI. This laboratory who is in charge of sending the "UCI" vampires (doctors) to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hemotologist, called Walter Viru, who is one of the doctors for Kelme to alert them the day before the UCI vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclist. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his.

BikingBernie

After a test for Epo was developed medically-managed autologous blood doping became the 'state of the art' method of doping. A translation of an instant text message between Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters shows how this blood doping was managed in Armstrong's Discovery team.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis ... ssage.html

Here is some confirmation of that 'Motorcycle with refrigerated panniers' claim. This is yet another article that has been practically wiped from the internet...

L'EQUIPE
October 6, 2005, page 12.
English translation of "Ce qui s'est passe sur le Tour 2005".

Photo

Prentice Steffen, USA, 44 years old

-Specialist in both Emergency Medicine, in San Francisco (USA), and Sports Medicine

-Worked successively for the cycling teams Subaru-Montgomery (1993-1995), US Postal (1996), Mercury (1998-2002), Prime Alliance (2003), Health Net (2004), then TIAA-CREF (2005)

Prentice Steffen, the ex-doctor for US Postal let go at the end of 1996 for not wanting to respond to the doping trend, reveals the new practices of the peloton.

"What happened during the 2005 Tour (de France)"

Dr. Prentice Steffen, his diplomas attest to the fact, is a model doctor. Specialist in both Emergency Medicine and Sports Medicine, he worked for four years, from 1993-1996, with the American cyclists of the teams Subaru-Montgomery then US Postal. In 1996, "during the height of the reign of EPO", his riders were totally destroyed during the Tour of Switzerland and two among them, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton, asked him in veiled words to help them dope. He refused and alerted the team directors. At the end of the year, his contract was not renewed and one morning the mailman delivered him a registered letter with the intimidation order to not talk about his experience in the heart of US Postal. "A few months later," he remembers, "the nine riders of the team rode the Champs-Elysees of the finish of the 1997 Tour de France. I realized they'd move on to EPO...". Today, despite threats from Lance Armstrong (1), Dr. Steffen is still in the milieu (of cycling). He takes care of a team of young American professionals (TIAA-CREF) which disputed the latest edition of the Tour de l'Avenir.

L'EQUIPE:

With all that you know about doping and the practices of a part of the peloton, why are you involved with young cyclists"

STEFFEN:

The pressure to dope for riders under the age of 25 is not so strong. Big teams don't want to see young guys arrive in their ranks with an already bad reputation. There's also the fact of being able to race in France. It's easier. If we come to race in France, with our team of young riders, it's not because our sponsor loves Avignon and Provence, but rather because we know we have a better chance to do well, even win. Thanks to the fear of the police, thanks to the journalists, and thanks to the fight against doping in place in your country. French riders, maybe due to these forces, have tried to change. We only race in your country and in the United States.

L'EQUIPE:

Your young riders are knowledgeable about doping?

STEFFEN:

They have a very clear understanding about things and about the environment they're in. To be among the best, one has to dope. For them, it's certain. I don't think they doubt it for an instant. But there are people fighting to change this situation. Jonathon Vaughters, the director of our team, is working to make it so that there is another path. But if things don't change, riders who are 20 years old today, in five years will have to make a choice: stop racing or dope.

L'EQUIPE:

Is it possible today to recognize those who'll take that step?

STEFFEN:

Even if we had a team psychologist who knew each rider intimately, who fully understood the problem of doping, I'm not sure he could know. If someone had asked me this question about Tyler Hamilton 10 or 11 years ago, I would've said: "He'll never do it. He's too honest, too well raised, too hard working... ". But that's not how it works. Unpleasant people like Lance Armstrong dope and nice people like Tyler Hamilton also dope. There's a moment when they waver. As if they don't have a choice. The only other solution would be to stop cycling. But they see themselves with a future, without a job. I think a rider with a college degree or from a family with money will be less likely to get involved in doping. But that's just a theory; Tyler Hamilton has a degree... he probably had other options. That proves that at a certain point there's something stronger that anything else that pushes a rider in (to doping). Maybe glory, maybe money.

L'EQUIPE:

Why, after all the difficulties you've endured, do you continue to work in this milieu (cycling)?

STEFFEN:

I love cycling. I've been in cycling for 26 years, since I was in college. But I promised myself something, and my wife can serve as witness: if Hamilton is declared innocent and nothing happens to Lance, I'll quit, I'll quit cycling once and for all. I'll believe there's no longer any hope. For now though, I'm optimistic. I'm a believer in using everything in the judicial arsenal to combat doping: increase the number of out-of-competition tests and better target the times they're done, freeze specimens and authorize their analysis and retrospective sanctions. And callon, when it's necessary, the police and the border controls. Above all, the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) should be completely out of this fight against doping because their is corruption there. That's my opinion, I don't have any proof, just doubts and a few rumors...

L'EQUIPE:

Aren't you a bit radical?

STEFFEN:

It's this way and only this way that we will really be able to combat doping. I'll explain something I've been told relating to certain teams in the 2005 Tour and you'll understand where this sport has gone...

L'EQUIPE:

Who told you?

STEFFEN:

Someone in the heart of a team that I can't name. Before going to the start of the Tour, the riders of certain teams, during their training camps, took EPO (which disappears from the urine within three days, even 12 hours when small doses are used) and took their hematocrits up to around 60. Then a doctor withdraws their blood, saving it in special containers, to lower their blood parameters into the accepted range (50) so that they pass without difficulty the medical controls before the Tour. Then, as the teams well know, during the race the vampires (2) can arrive any day but always between 7 and 8 in the morning. After that time, there is no more testing and the riders were able to reinject their own blood. They were racing the stage with an enormous advantage- their hemotrocrit in the 55 to 58 range during the race- then in the evening at the hotel, someone again withdraws their blood so that they sleep without risk (3) and, especially, they escape the possible tests the next morning.

L'EQUIPE:

This practice was used every evening during the three weeks of the Tour?

STEFFEN:

No, just for important stages in the mountains or maybe for a time trial. It's so simple to do and there's no risk of being caught unless the police intervene. The blood was shuttled by motorcycle in a refrigerated compartment...

L'EQUIPE:

Autotransfusions (where one injects his own blood) are indetectable. Can nothing be done to stop it?

STEFFEN:

Yes. The vampires should come take the blood samples just before the start near the start line. It's the only solution. Or otherwise, once again we must call on the police...


DOMINIQUE and JEAN ISSARTEL


(1) After the publication of his testimony about Jemison and Hamilton in an article in the Sunday Times of London in 2001 when he expressed his certainty that US Postal had begun doping, Dr. Steffen received a phone call from Armstrong in which he threatened him in the following terms (the same that he used against Greg LeMond and Mike Anderson, his former personal assistant): "I have a lot of money, good lawyers, and if you continue to talk, I'll destroy you."

(2) The UCI antidoping control officers are thus nicknamed in cycling.

(3) When certain blood parameters (hemoglobin, hematocrit) are too high, there is a real risk of blood clots due to thickening of the blood.

(4) UCI antidoping rules sayin article 135 that "a test can be carried out in competion or out-of-competition at any time and at any place without warning". In this particular case, no rider can be declared positive because autotransfusions are indetectable. But if the blood parameters are abnormal, the authorities can forbid the rider to continue the race and can impose a rest period of 15 days.

BikingBernie

redddraggon wrote:

12 naive people so far

Given all the evidence that is available, more like wilfully ignorant.

Then again, a pretty determined attempt has been made to erase from the internet as much information as possible which shows the truth behind 'The Armstrong myth'.

andy_wrx

Any chance of changing the second option to 'Despite the evidence, I won't believe it' ?

BikingBernie

Here's another small insight into Armstrong’s relationship with Michele Ferrari, and his ‘modus operandi’ when dealing with those who he feels show a lack of loyalty to him.

Ferrari had been under investigation since 1998 for doping related offences. Ironically, the cyclingnews.com report announcing Armstrong’s return to racing also noted that Ferrari, and his former mentor, Conconi, were ‘the top specialists of erythropoetine (EPO), the forbidden drug that the peleton is caught in the grip off.’

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/arch ... /25_1.html

In April 2001 Armstrong refused to say one way or the other whether he had been working with Ferrari. Ferrari’s case went to court in September 2001. Armstrong continued to work with Ferrari right through this period, only officially breaking with Ferrari in October 2004. Since the he has said that he and Ferrari remain in contact and are ‘close friends’.

Mike Anderson use to work as a mechanic and general aid for Armstrong, but Armstrong got rid of him when he thought Anderson couldn’t be trusted any longer because of his reaction when Armstrong talked of doping, and the fact that Anderson, or so he claimed, found steroids in Armstrong’s home. As part of the legal case that followed his dismissal, Anderson’s legal team put together a submission that contained the following, which shows just how closely Armstrong worked with Ferrari.

---

15. During the USPS Team December training camp in 2003, Lance Armstrong assigned Mike Anderson the task of transporting Michele Ferrari from Austin Bergstrom International Airport to Lance Armstrong's cabin off ********* Road in Austin, Texas, where Ferrari stayed during the training camp. Lance Armstrong told Mike Anderson that he did not want Ferrari staying at the Four Seasons Hotel with the USPS team because of the media.

14. Before Armstrong won the 2004 Tour de France, during a training ride near Austin, Armstrong and Anderson discussed the situation of a world famous professional bicyclist from Belgium, Johan Museeuw, who had been caught using steroids and banned from competition. Armstrong looked directly into the eyes of Anderson and told him, "Everyone does it." Anderson understood that this statement by Lance Armstrong was an admission that to Anderson that Armstrong was using steroids and a request from Armstrong to Anderson to indicate he was "okay" with this fact. Anderson did not say anything in response to Armstrong to indicate he was "okay" with cheating by using steroids. Anderson sensed because of the way that Armstrong made this statement, Armstrong expected a supportive response from Anderson, and Armstrong reacted coldly when Anderson did not give him a supportive response. Anderson declined to say he understood that everyone used steroids. After this exchange, there was more distance between them than before this exchange. Armstrong's statement bothered and disillusioned Anderson.

17. In early 2004, just before Armstrong and Crow arrived, when cleaning out the bathroom of Armstrong's apartment in Girona, Spain, Anderson found a box of what he believed were steroids. The box was white with red and black lettering, and had a normal label like any other prescription, there was no doctor's prescription attached. Both the trademark name and the pharmacological name were on the front of the box. The trademark name was Androstenin or something very close to this. When Anderson made this discovery, he was alarmed and worried. He did not know what to do. He went to the computer, looked it up on the WADA or USADA website(s), and confirmed that what he had found was an androgen - a listed banned substance.

19. Additional evidence that Armstrong knew Anderson had discovered his box of steroids is this: Armstrong cut short his stay in Girona., explaining that it was too cold and rainy and that he was going to the Canary Islands to train. This struck Anderson as strange, since until then, Armstrong trained in rain or shine. Armstrong and Crow, along with Dr. Michele Ferrari, who has been associated with steroids, left Spain for the Canary Islands…

21. On June 28, 2004, Lance Armstrong sent Anderson an email that included this statement by Armstrong: "tests are good (even schumi is psyched) and we're all ready to go for 6!" This email is Attachment F hereto. Lance Armstrong's reference to "schumi" was the codename he used at the time for Dr. Michele Ferrari.

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/spo ... _lance.pdf

mfin

BikingBernie wrote:

STEFFEN:

Someone in the heart of a team that I can't name. Before going to the start of the Tour, the riders of certain teams, during their training camps, took EPO (which disappears from the urine within three days, even 12 hours when small doses are used) and took their hematocrits up to around 60. Then a doctor withdraws their blood, saving it in special containers, to lower their blood parameters into the accepted range (50) so that they pass without difficulty the medical controls before the Tour. Then, as the teams well know, during the race the vampires (2) can arrive any day but always between 7 and 8 in the morning. After that time, there is no more testing and the riders were able to reinject their own blood. They were racing the stage with an enormous advantage- their hemotrocrit in the 55 to 58 range during the race- then in the evening at the hotel, someone again withdraws their blood so that they sleep without risk (3) and, especially, they escape the possible tests the next morning.

These are the kind of things that I can't understand how some people can read and somehow pass it off in the context that LA rides against all these people using all these methods and beats them all 7 years on the trot whilst remaining 100% clean. Its a joke really. An unfunny one.

Surely if you accept cycling has been rife with doping at these kind of levels then you must accept to dominate the TDF for those many years (plus with many doped members of your team) then you are going to have doped?

Ta for the above post - some really clear explanations in that interview.

dennisn

xraymtb wrote:

I ticked 'Don't Know' because I haven't read anything conclusive that says he did or did not dope.

That said, I get the feeling I've missed out on a lot - anyone got any pointers to online articles or reports?

Hate to say it but I doubt you will find anyone on this forum to point you to online articles
or reports. There hasn't been much talk on the subject.

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

El Imbatido wrote:

Try this one

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16226502/Lance-Armstrong-Doping-History

Or this

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2132106/m/gregstef.mp3

Second link is an mp3 of the call Greg Lemond had with Stephanie McMahon (unsure on last name, it escapes me at the moment) who worked for oakley and was apparently in the hospital room when he admitted to usings PEDs

That was Stephanie McIlvain.

Also interesting, the hard to find English translation of L.A. Confidentiel. (See below). When this was first circulated Armstrong's legal Rottweiler’s went so far as to trace people who posted links to it on forums, demanding that they delete all copies they had in their possession and threatening legal action if they ever played a part in 'distributing' the materiel in the future. As a consequence it was effectively removed from the Internet.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/81ba27/ ... s_1_50_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0ae26g ... 51_100_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/aaa0f2/ ... 01_150_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/81b9c5/n/BigTex_4_pdf

Another hard to find piece of evidence can be found below. This links to a pdf of the full revelations of Jesus Manzano. In it Manzano notes that the team doctors at both Kelme and USP /Disco were good friends of a haematologist who ran the lab used by the UCI to do blood testing, and that the haematologist used to tip off the team doctors when the UCI 'vampires' were about to pay a visit. This story was translated and repeated in full by the English speaking press, with the exception of the bit implicating USP/ Discovery. You can't even find the original in the L'Equipe archives anymore.

http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf

Translation:

I want to give you an example, something I've never spoken about except to the police up until now. It concerns one of the four Spanish Laboratories credited by the UCI. This laboratory who is in charge of sending the "UCI" vampires (doctors) to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hemotologist, called Walter Viru, who is one of the doctors for Kelme to alert them the day before the UCI vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclist. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his.

Now, THAT was a post. Whew. Very impressive BB.

Pokerface

dennisn wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

El Imbatido wrote:

Try this one

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16226502/Lance-Armstrong-Doping-History

Or this

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2132106/m/gregstef.mp3

Second link is an mp3 of the call Greg Lemond had with Stephanie McMahon (unsure on last name, it escapes me at the moment) who worked for oakley and was apparently in the hospital room when he admitted to usings PEDs

That was Stephanie McIlvain.

Also interesting, the hard to find English translation of L.A. Confidentiel. (See below). When this was first circulated Armstrong's legal Rottweiler’s went so far as to trace people who posted links to it on forums, demanding that they delete all copies they had in their possession and threatening legal action if they ever played a part in 'distributing' the materiel in the future. As a consequence it was effectively removed from the Internet.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/81ba27/ ... s_1_50_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a0ae26g ... 51_100_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/aaa0f2/ ... 01_150_pdf

http://www.filefactory.com/file/81b9c5/n/BigTex_4_pdf

Another hard to find piece of evidence can be found below. This links to a pdf of the full revelations of Jesus Manzano. In it Manzano notes that the team doctors at both Kelme and USP /Disco were good friends of a haematologist who ran the lab used by the UCI to do blood testing, and that the haematologist used to tip off the team doctors when the UCI 'vampires' were about to pay a visit. This story was translated and repeated in full by the English speaking press, with the exception of the bit implicating USP/ Discovery. You can't even find the original in the L'Equipe archives anymore.

http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf

Translation:

I want to give you an example, something I've never spoken about except to the police up until now. It concerns one of the four Spanish Laboratories credited by the UCI. This laboratory who is in charge of sending the "UCI" vampires (doctors) to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hemotologist, called Walter Viru, who is one of the doctors for Kelme to alert them the day before the UCI vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclist. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his.

Now, THAT was a post. Whew. Very impressive BB.

It's almost like Aurelio was banned and then came back as BB. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum....

deejay

Pokerface wrote:

It's almost like Aurelio was banned and then came back as BB. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum....

Why not. ?????
Why is it not safe on the forum unless you think you have evidence that differs from BB that won't stand the Scrutiny that BB has had.
It could be your fears are more to do with the Texan deciding to attempt an action against this forum members and you think that involves you.
Then I see your problem, so maybe you should put your head back in the sand.

Myself, I would say bring it on, even though I have no real knowlege of the above but as a witness (not hearsay) I could damage his case in court.
I have no Fear of the Cretin.

dennisn

deejay wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

It's almost like Aurelio was banned and then came back as BB. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum....

Why not. ?????
Why is it not safe on the forum unless you think you have evidence that differs from BB that won't stand the Scrutiny that BB has had.
It could be your fears are more to do with the Texan deciding to attempt an action against this forum members and you think that involves you.
Then I see your problem, so maybe you should put your head back in the sand.

Myself, I would say bring it on, even though I have no real knowlege of the above but as a witness (not hearsay) I could damage his case in court.
I have no Fear of the Cretin.

I do believe you have taken "Pokerfaces" post a bit too seriously.

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

deejay wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

It's almost like Aurelio was banned and then came back as BB. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum....

Why not. ?????
Why is it not safe on the forum unless you think you have evidence that differs from BB that won't stand the Scrutiny that BB has had.
It could be your fears are more to do with the Texan deciding to attempt an action against this forum members and you think that involves you.
Then I see your problem, so maybe you should put your head back in the sand.

Myself, I would say bring it on, even though I have no real knowlege of the above but as a witness (not hearsay) I could damage his case in court.
I have no Fear of the Cretin.

I do believe you have taken "Pokerfaces" post a bit too seriously.

I think we should rename him Woooooosh as everything seems to go over his head.

sampras38

I'm a huge LA fan and certainly don't want to add to the flamewar or go over old ground, but I'm currently reading the Lance to Landis doping controversy book and wondered, does anyone know what happened when this book was released. How did LA and other riders/people in the sport react to it?

I've read most of the books out there but this one is easily the most damning of the lot..

I'm not green and always knew the peleton was rife with all sorts of drugs since the sport began, and even with the invent of EPO and everything that happened with it in the 90's onwards, there was still a small part of me that just wanted to believe he was clean.

In a way I wish I'd never picked the book up..

Monty Dog

There's absolutely no doubt that LA's expensive lawyers looked long and hard at the publication and no doubt consulted English lawyers / courts for advise - particularly as we have the most onerous libel laws. Their probable advise was to stay quiet as they would have to submit some form of evidence upon which to refute the claims - and unlike BB's post, evidence seems to be pretty thin on the ground apart from the proclaimations of his PR machine and his many acolytes. We await the forthcoming Greg LeMond vs Trek suit and what evidence GL want to bring to bear against his holiness.

sampras38

Monty Dog wrote:

There's absolutely no doubt that LA's expensive lawyers looked long and hard at the publication and no doubt consulted English lawyers / courts for advise - particularly as we have the most onerous libel laws. Their probable advise was to stay quiet as they would have to submit some form of evidence upon which to refute the claims - and unlike BB's post, evidence seems to be pretty thin on the ground apart from the proclaimations of his PR machine and his many acolytes. We await the forthcoming Greg LeMond vs Trek suit and what evidence GL want to bring to bear against his holiness.

Thanks Monty. It just seems so damning with so many people close to him coming forward with what seem like pretty hard evidence. I guess there was always part of me that knew they all did it, it's just that some were better athletes than others.

Regardless I still love the sport and it wouldn't stop me watching. I was in France this year and managed to catch some of it while I was out there, and I don't think I've ever experienced a sporting atmosphere like the one I was part of this year when we were at the top of the Cole Du Colombiere as the riders came through. At one point LA was about a foot away from me and the look on his face was what the sport should be about.

Sheer grit.

Kléber

Armstrong sued News International (NI) when it repeated some of Walsh's claims in The Sunday Times, from Walsh's first book LA Confidential. But the legal judgement was actually very subtle. I'll try to summarise it but Armstrong's case rested on the fact that if he took drugs then NI was implying he was a cheat, a liar and a fraudster, the text contained words to imply this.

Armstrong's contested this portrayal but his defence did not dispute the use of PEDs, only that he was a fraudster etc. Splitting hairs you might say but that is what the High Court does. When Lance to Landis came out, there was no court action because the book was much better worded and vetted by the publisher's lawyers.

xraymtb

I read the translation of LA Confidentiel recently (thanks to another forum member). It really made me wonder about his performances but it still doesn't provide concrete evidence one way or the other. My original vote of 'Don't Know' has to stand but I am swaying towards believing he took something.

Regardless of whether he did or didn't dope, everything I've read recently has got me to thinking he's not actually a very nice guy regardless and I certainly wouldnt be looking up to him.

sampras38

xraymtb wrote:

I read the translation of LA Confidentiel recently (thanks to another forum member). It really made me wonder about his performances but it still doesn't provide concrete evidence one way or the other. My original vote of 'Don't Know' has to stand but I am swaying towards believing he took something.

Regardless of whether he did or didn't dope, everything I've read recently has got me to thinking he's not actually a very nice guy regardless and I certainly wouldnt be looking up to him.

Personally I'm not particularly fussed whether he is or isn't a nice person. For me it's always been about the sport and I think I've come to the conclusion that he's an incredibly driven athlete who used what he had better than the rest. If everyone doped, and I'm sure most did, he still spent a lot of his time riding the opposition into the ground.

I'm in mixed minds about the finer details at the moment and this book has been the reason for that.