Broke My PB - now need help

fuzzynavel

OK...situation is this.

My previous best over my 52 mile course was 3 hours 4 minutes on my own without chaingang or drafting.

On Saturday I did 2 hours 55 on the same course.....the weather was calm as it was on the previous effort back in June although maybe a little cooler. I tend to go out around 7am so I was well away from the summer heat in the June run.

For my training I have been doing hill repeats similar to this one http://connect.garmin.com/activity/3509375. I think there are 11 repeats in this one....you will understand when you look at the elevation profile.

Usually I do 3 or 4 of these hill repeats in the evening a couple of times a week and a longer ride at the weekend similar to the one linked above...

My training is obviously working so is there anything I should change? My average speed on the outward journey was the same as the previous PB but my homewards leg was substantially faster and I finished a few miles ahead of my previous best....(The joy of the virtual partner) The point I am trying to make is that my endurance has got a lot better but could still be much better.

What would be a decent time for a reasonably flat 50 mile run? I don't need world class times as that would be stupid to aim for but I would like a challenge for a time to hit in, say, 6 months for an average person like myself. I can find a profile of the ride from my garmin later if required.

cheers for any help.

mikeq

Is that 11 times around Arthurs Seat?

I stay just off Willowbrae and use the steep side for some hill climb training, but just climb roll back down footpath, climb, rinse and repeat

That wasn't you that came flying past us on Saturday was it, wearing I think white/silver kit?

fuzzynavel

mikeq wrote:

Is that 11 times around Arthurs Seat?

I stay just off Willowbrae and use the steep side for some hill climb training, but just climb roll back down footpath, climb, rinse and repeat

That wasn't you that came flying past us on Saturday was it, wearing I think white/silver kit?

It is Arthur's Seat .....I go up the other side and do laps....For some reason I think the road is one way so have never tried the other direction... If I can get under 13minutes for the entire lap then I know I am doing ok...

The route that I did on Saturday was the ERC route out past Dalkieth to Gullane and back into town....I didn't go round Arthur's seat as I knew I was on for a good time....I have done this route and then a few laps around Arthur's seat at the end before and was absolutely knackered...but I guess you don't get any better unless you push yourself..

I am a complete junkie for using the Garmin to race against myself though...can't get enough of the virtual partner.

mikeq

Sorry I meant following the road, I would class that as the steep side, shorter but steeper than the bit that runs down to the commy pool.

I just climb on the road, get to the layby at the top where dunsapie loch is and roll back down the footpath. So you only get a couple of minutes rest between climbs.

When I was out on Saturday with a friend, getting her used to climbing hills, we were near the bottom and a cyclist came flying up behind while I was giving her advice. I never heard him and got in his way, I did apologise but I dont think he was too impressed as no response was forthcoming, ooops.

fuzzynavel

mikeq wrote:

Sorry I meant following the road, I would class that as the steep side, shorter but steeper than the bit that runs down to the commy pool.

I just climb on the road, get to the layby at the top where dunsapie loch is and roll back down the footpath. So you only get a couple of minutes rest between climbs.

When I was out on Saturday with a friend, getting her used to climbing hills, we were near the bottom and a cyclist came flying up behind while I was giving her advice. I never heard him and got in his way, I did apologise but I dont think he was too impressed as no response was forthcoming, ooops.

I am 15 + stone so not that great at climbing hills..... Trying to lose weight but I keep replacing Fat with Muscle which only helps a little bit. What kind of bike are you on? I will look out for you when I am up there.
I am usually on a Giant SCR 1.5.....black shorts and a black/silver top....always have headphones in when I am on the bike....
As it is getting colder I will probably be going out more on the bike.....Odd I know! It's normally the other way around!

Bronzie

fuzzynavel wrote:

For my training I have been doing hill repeats

I think you'd benefit a lot from doing longer intervals at TT pace (eg 2x20s) if you don't incorporate these into your training already.

mikeq

fuzzynavel wrote:

What kind of bike are you on? I will look out for you when I am up there.
I am usually on a Giant SCR 1.5.....black shorts and a black/silver top...!

Specialized Allez '09, it's black. Have just bought a Livestrong helmet so thats black/yellow as I melted my last one on a convector heater, oops

fuzzynavel

Bronzie wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

For my training I have been doing hill repeats

I think you'd benefit a lot from doing longer intervals at TT pace (eg 2x20s) if you don't incorporate these into your training already.

..


I presume you mean 2 x 20 minutes not 2 x 20 miles....

I already do a 20 mile TT effort once a week and am concentrating on pacing mostly...the first few times I tried it I just went mad and was dead half way round.....Now I have set points on my Garmin and try to keep my averages between those points....I basically use the virtual trainer function and try not to get too far ahead of my previous best...If I get too far ahead I have a fair idea that I will blow up at some point. I try to aim for a few seconds improvement each time out as a minimum. I have it at 1 hr 00mins and 8 seconds at the moment so am hoping to break the 20mph average this week at some point.

Bronzie

fuzzynavel wrote:

I presume you mean 2 x 20 minutes not 2 x 20 miles....

Yes - 20 mins - but you can and should be able to ride these at a faster pace than your 20 mile continuous TTs.

fuzzynavel

I've done it again!!!! another 7 minutes off my 50 mile time.....down to 2 hours 48 minutes now...
I went out and totally beasted myself.....no surrender to the muscle burn......could have done without feeling like I was going to cramp at every pedal push though ....

mackdaddy

Best thing to do is to train for something specific. If there is a 50 mile TT nearby, aim to do that next season. You will do better in a TT race than you ever will in training.
In the meantime, a good way to improve your time on a fixed course is to do the following.
Take your target time for the route, not including warm up time (this can vary depending on conditions)
Work out the average speed for that time.
After a proper warm up, start off at just over your target average speed and maintain this as long as possible.
Once you can't maintain it, spin out for the remainder of the target time (not distance!)
Repeat, extending the time above the target speed for longer each time.
Depending on your target and the time you aim to achieve it, this should progress to the point where you can maintain it for the whole route.
Intersperse this with high intensity efforts, such as 2x20 once a week.
Rather than edging up the average speed (or edging down your overall time) you should spot easier where your weaknesses are and what starts to give once your speed drops off. Is it hills, core, flat speed etc.
Then you can train these on the interspersed sessions.

fuzzynavel

Thanks Mackdaddy..

Unfortunately the course I ride is far from flat so spinning at a nice speed is practically impossible.

Getting involved in an organised event is a good idea and I had considered it this year but wanted to become a stronger rider first. I am really tempted by the etape caledonia as long as there are no idiots with tacks next year.

Luckily I have the benefit of my Garmin...I keep harping on about this thing but it is like a race every time I leave the house.....Using the virtual partner to make sure I finish ahead of my previous best seems to me to be a great way to train.. I am constantly improving but I will hit a wall eventually and this it will start to get really hard.

mackdaddy

If you want to make significant gains, you can follow the principles I outlined, but modify it because of your route.
For example, go at just above target pace for as long as possible as I stated earlier, then maintain the best pace you can for the remainder, but don't worry as much about the overall average speed. Your target should be to maintain just above target average speed for as long as possible on the route and then to progressively extend that toward the full route each time you ride it.
On general terms, your training should always be progressive otherwise you will plateau (somethig to be careful of on 2 x 20s). Also beware of overtraining, it is counterproductive. Most people read that to mean training too often, but it really means training to fatigue. On the session above, if you start to struggle, then you've done enough at that intensity (fatigue is not the same as intensity obviously - again people mix this up). You need to listen to your body.
Recovery is also critical. What you eat, drink do, between sessions will decelerate or accelerate your progress significantly as well.
It is a wonderful journey athletes take and it is amazing how serious athletes like yourself will learn so much about their own being in the pursuit of performance.

Garry H

Why not just try riding in the faster chaingang (assuming you don't already), they do the same route.? I find it quite difficult after a bit to improve by just riding solo, diminishing returns and all that.

fuzzynavel

Garry H wrote:

Why not just try riding in the faster chaingang (assuming you don't already), they do the same route.? I find it quite difficult after a bit to improve by just riding solo, diminishing returns and all that.

The reason I stopped with the chain gang is that they go out too late...They have a 9:30/10 am start....I can be back by that time if I go on my own.....It creates far less hassle with the other half if I can be back just after our little one has been fed and dressed etc as I have the rest of the day to spend with them.

I can see the benefits of the chaingang. The group I was riding with did the route in about the same time but there were a lot more through and offs...higher intensity bursts etc but then periods where I would be quicker solo and would have to hold back...I found it slightly frustrating to be brutally honest.

I may try going out with the faster group to get the garmin data and then work towards that time as a solo rider.

Dropping the saturday chaingang ride and starting midweek solo hill climb intervals seems like a good compromise to me.....I get a mix of high intensity/ short recovery stuff midweek and lower (but still high around 90% of max HR on average) intensity long ride at the weekend.

Doing the midweek stuff has let me learn my intensity limits and know how far I can push my body without going over the edge....Sort of like training with perceived exertion instead of with power metering. I can use this information to push harder on the long runs and hence drop my times.

Next step is the power meter once I can afford it. Have already read "training with power" by allen and coggan cover to cover and used some of the principles mentioned to improve my non power oriented training.

Garry H

fuzzynavel wrote:

Garry H wrote:

Why not just try riding in the faster chaingang (assuming you don't already), they do the same route.? I find it quite difficult after a bit to improve by just riding solo, diminishing returns and all that.

The reason I stopped with the chain gang is that they go out too late...They have a 9:30/10 am start....I can be back by that time if I go on my own.....It creates far less hassle with the other half if I can be back just after our little one has been fed and dressed etc as I have the rest of the day to spend with them.

I can see the benefits of the chaingang. The group I was riding with did the route in about the same time but there were a lot more through and offs...higher intensity bursts etc but then periods where I would be quicker solo and would have to hold back...I found it slightly frustrating to be brutally honest.

I may try going out with the faster group to get the garmin data and then work towards that time as a solo rider.

Dropping the saturday chaingang ride and starting midweek solo hill climb intervals seems like a good compromise to me.....I get a mix of high intensity/ short recovery stuff midweek and lower (but still high around 90% of max HR on average) intensity long ride at the weekend.

Doing the midweek stuff has let me learn my intensity limits and know how far I can push my body without going over the edge....Sort of like training with perceived exertion instead of with power metering. I can use this information to push harder on the long runs and hence drop my times.

Next step is the power meter once I can afford it. Have already read "training with power" by allen and coggan cover to cover and used some of the principles mentioned to improve my non power oriented training.

Have had similar experiences with the chaingang, so I started going with one that was a tad too fast for me. Sometimes I get dropped, but most times I'm ok now. If it frustrates you, it's only because you're in too slow a group ;o)

Do the same Arthur's Seat intervals during the week as well as the two chaingangs, and it seems to have helped considerably.

Why not give racing a shot next year?

fuzzynavel

Garry H wrote:

Why not give racing a shot next year?

Scared of failure!!! Don't want to get demoralised when I am enjoying riding so much.

May try the local club 10 mile TT's next season and see how I do..

I also have a local 22 mile loop that I do occasionally while timing myself for good measure..

thedaffodilfish

fuzzynavel wrote:

Garry H wrote:

Why not give racing a shot next year?

Scared of failure!!! Don't want to get demoralised when I am enjoying riding so much.
May try the local club 10 mile TT's next season and see how I do..
I also have a local 22 mile loop that I do occasionally while timing myself for good measure..

Don't let that put you off! I started racing this year and got the biggest shock of my life getting totally kicked out the back on my arse with no sign of improvement in subsequent races (I'm not selling this very well am I!

However, it was so much fun and a total buzz! After the pain (and humiliation) (there's that salesman again!) had died away I was totally determined to improve and get the next race in. While I haven't improved much against racing peers, I do feel my training efforts and mental discipline to work ethic and pushing myself that extra bit has come on.

If you're referring to the Kirky 10 TT run by ERC, then you should certainly give that a go. It's really enjoyable and a good place to measure yourself.

Of the various sports I've played, there's always been a level to participate in against others of your ability. Cycling is the first sport I've tried where even the bottom category was balls to the wall flat out and so beyond anything I could manage. Or maybe I'm just *rilly bad*. Either way I intend to improve to enough to finish in the bunch next season!

fuzzynavel

thedaffodilfish wrote:

If you're referring to the Kirky 10 TT run by ERC, then you should certainly give that a go. It's really enjoyable and a good place to measure yourself.

Of the various sports I've played, there's always been a level to participate in against others of your ability. Cycling is the first sport I've tried where even the bottom category was balls to the wall flat out and so beyond anything I could manage. Or maybe I'm just *rilly bad*. Either way I intend to improve to enough to finish in the bunch next season!

You are right, you are a crap salesman....basically I should prepare myself to do badly then it won't hurt so much!!

It was the Kirky 10 I was referring to....I'll look on the ERC site and see if there is a map so I can have a go on my own....I know that the timings were posted on the website a while back.

I believe that they also run some events out in East Lothian as well....

I may join the club runs again on a saturday as it may start to get a bit dangerous in the winter going out while it is still dark around 7am with the ice etc...may need to go out later for safety.