Brand Snobbery... Worth It In The Long Run ??

SuperCove

Afternoon All,

I am seriously considering moving from my MTB over to a road bike and have been looking at various rides but can not work out it if in the long it is worth paying the extra from a named brand?

Are there any advantages purchasing a frame made by Scott / Trek etc over companies like Planet X and Focus ??

Does the same apply for clothing also ??

Thanks SC

Slow Downcp

If it makes you want to ride it more, then yes, it's worth the extra. Personally I wouldn't buy a Trek/Scott/Specialized etc - not because they're not good bikes, as I have never ridden one so can't comment - but purely because they just don't do it for me.

I bought a Kuota four years ago because I liked it, not everyone rides one, and it makes me want to ride it. Similarly last year when I bought my Enigma. Whilst you have to listen to your head to a point, you also have to listen to your heart

Re clothing - yes, there is a little bit of you get what you pay for. I normally buy Assos - expensive but, like Stella, reassuringly so.

holybinch

Slow Downcp wrote:

I normally buy Assos - expensive but, like Stella, reassuringly so.

Best way to keep me off Assos!!!

Kiwi Kranker

Agree on the 'if it looks good and stylish you will want to ride it' theme. Assuming it is a good bike initially.

I was/am new to the road and on a bit of a whim bought my Wilier (after many a test ride) even though there were plenty out there better value for money with similar or better ride qualities. (Planet X etc etc)

In my eyes it just looks so damned good it is sacrilage not to use it, I am glad I paid the extra for basically a good looking 'brand' bike. It is a joy to use and I forgot about what I spent on it the day I rode it out the store door.

Not sure if it will hold true but in the future when it is old and ratty it will be an old and ratty stylish Italian designed (not built) bike whereas an old Specialized or Scott will simply be that, old and ratty.

Jeeez I sound shallow......

Clearly from my mtbs in my signature I am not generally someone who goes for good looking bikes but in this case I am glad I did.

As for clothes do your research and stick with what works for you, I spent a bit of coin on some Mavic bibs and they are rubbish for me mind you with Assos by all accounts you cant go wrong!

kingrollo

Not so much Trek, Specialised, - Try Pinarello, Wilier, Colnago

I had a Pinarello, and yep I paid for the name - I could have got much higher spec - but I liked the bike and for many years, I just couldn't feasibly buy anything that I liked more.

This time, with a couple of kids in tow, I couldn't afford another Pinarello. Event for a Kuota, - again I have paid for looks of thing, rather than spec or lightweight, which would have pointed me to Planet X, Ribble, Boardman. Its really whats important to you - be honest with yourself - if you really want a brand bike, you have to step down the spec - or stump up tons more cash.

Neither approach is wrong ....its your money ! (or bill !)

SuperCove

I have no problem paying for a name... a bit of one up manship in the pub is always a good thing but do you get better quality of just a name??

If I go carbon... is the structure and strengh any better than a cheaper brand clearly made in China ??

Slow Downcp

The branded frames will also be made in China/Taiwan, unless you go handbuilt Viner, top spec Colnago, De Roda or similar - possibly even the same factory.

Kiwi Kranker

Whatever brand you choose make sure the frame is made in Taiwan or if your budget allows, made in the brands home country eg Italy.

I dont care who raves about how good a Chinese built carbon frame is its simply a fact that the Taiwanese are miles ahead in carbon frame manufacture on a large scale and you would certainly hope an Italian built frame would last and be better built.

(NB I really really really hope that my frame is made inTaiwan and not China after that post......!)

SuperCove

How would you know where it is made... they do not put "Made in China" in the spec list

porker33

How do you define brand snobbery though?

You will get posts from really interesting types who ride an esoteric brand and on the other hand losers like myself with a Specialised MTB and a Trek road bike, trying to come to terms with the bargain price Ultegra and decent warranty.

Smokin Joe

A frame has to be pleasing to the eye before I buy it. An unpainted carbon frame with no decals may well be fantastic quality at a cheap price, but I think it looks like a pile of sh1t and I wouldn't want to ride it.

It isn't snobbery either, because there are many things we buy where the product has to look appealing before we part with our cash.

jamestux

The chinese aren't bad at manufacturing carbon fibre.....

I know of an industry where the carbon fibre parts of their products actually outperform the established manufacturers (but the same cannot be said of the assembley or the quality of the metal parts on my particular one!)

Photographic tripods.

I wouldn't ignore a product just because of where it is made, I am sure all countries have great, good and poor factories!

Kiwi Kranker

jamestux wrote:

The chinese aren't bad at manufacturing carbon fibre.....

I know of an industry where the carbon fibre parts of their products actually outperform the established manufacturers (but the same cannot be said of the assembley or the quality of the metal parts on my particular one!)

Photographic tripods.

I wouldn't ignore a product just because of where it is made, I am sure all countries have great, good and poor factories!

I am not ignoring their frames because they are made in China its just that the Taiwanese are better at it. With the greatest respect the forces on a photographic tripod versus those exerted through a bike are far easier to calculate and consequently build for. It is a lot harder to make a frame than it is to make a tripod. I am open to stand corrected if you can offer a more appropriate comparison.

dcj

I have no issue with either paying for a brand or getting better spec for unbranded.

indeed I have a 2004 Litespeed and a top of the range Focus from 2007.

what is an issue is brands pretending to be what they are not. A Colnago EPS made in Italy costing £2,000+ is acceptable but to me a similarr price on a Colnago shipped from Taiwan is not on.

Then you know you are being massively ripped off.

Many people slag off Treks but at least some of the price reflects the labour rates in the country where they are made.
Why are brands like Cervelo charging premium prices when everyone in the know knows they are built alongside other brands sold for a fraction of the price.

That is when I think how much of the cost of each frame underwrites their pro tour cycling team?

guilliano

You'll pay more for a Cervelo as they have a LOT less frames made than Trek, therefore each one costs them more. The quality is probably identical, but the exclusivity of the Cervelo is where some of the cost comes from

daviesee

Well, I went for the Colnago Master & Campag so you know where I stand on the issue.
Could I have got more for the money? Very likely.
Do I regret the decision? Not for a second. :P

Clothing - Cheap can do the job but expensive does it a bit better, more comfortably, and possibly a bit more stylishly.

No decisions where you are happy are wrong.

nickwill

SuperCove wrote:

Are there any advantages purchasing a frame made by Scott / Trek etc over companies like Planet X and Focus ??

I would argue that Planet X and Focus probably have more kudos than the two brands you mention. They show that you have thought about your purchase!

m@rk

I too am a mtb'er and have recently wondered over to the darkside. I recently was in the same quandry as you 'what to buy?' since I had just bought a new mtb on the cycle to work scheme i decided to buy a cheapy road bike ( Carrera TDF Ltd from halfords) to see if I liked it first as I noticed that ebay was littered with people like me and you who enjoyed mtb's and then bought a £600 road bike only to realise two weeks later that its not for them.

My thinking was that I will give it a go and then if I like it? then next year I'll get a better (more expensive) road bike on the CTW scheme.

So far I'm loving it, although the gearing and riding pos'ns do take getting used to. I still enjoy my mountain bike but its nice to have the option.

Just remember as Lance Armstrong says . . 'Its not about the bike' if your a good cyclist then you'll be good no matter what steed you ride. I hate bike snobbery but appreciate nice bikes.

yes a good, nice, light, bike is nice to have but first see if you can get used to the difference, otherwise it could prove a costly mistake.

I think if you enjoy cycling, then youl'll enjoy a road bike

Monkeypump

For all the brand snobbery in the world, riiding a bike is about RIDING.

Go and test ride some pretty Italian exotica, some 'plain Jane' Treks (one of which I have, BTW, and love!) and everthing inbetween and see which one rides best.

Then you just have to decide if you can live with your choice!

Kiwi Kranker

Just a query, why do so many people seem to run down their Treks and feel the need to justify owning them and others mock them?

They make very good bikes was the impression I got from research and riding a few.

Monty Dog

Can somebody explain why a Cervelo made in the Far East has the same retail price as a top-end European frame? - if there's a triumph of marketing over content, then it surely has to be it. Premium pricing also should mean exclusivity - the sheer number of Treks, Specialized, Scotts, Giants and Cervelos you see is simply the biggest turn-off going. I have absolutely no problem with £400 carbon frames - in fact for someone starting racing it's exactly what I'd suggest because simply put, it you crash, it ain't going to break your bank, and besides, the vast majority of riders simply don't have the fitness or handling skills to be able to tell the difference!

incog24

dcj wrote:

Many people slag off Treks but at least some of the price reflects the labour rates in the country where they are made.
Why are brands like Cervelo charging premium prices when everyone in the know knows they are built alongside other brands sold for a fraction of the price.

That is when I think how much of the cost of each frame underwrites their pro tour cycling team?

You realise the trek road bikes, aside from the top level madones, are made by Giant? The only reason the top level ones aren't is that Trek wanted the BB area made in one way and Giant considered a pretty poor way to do it and so refused to do so...

cougie

Just buy what you want to - I'm not really that bothered about brands - at the end of the day - its about riding the bike, not looking at it (or the receipt).

Cervelo - nice looking frames, but is it worth twice the price of my frame ? Not for me.

BigG67

Our marketing boffins have terms for the "motiovations to buy" and the 2 key ones here are Status and Discernment, and to an extent Community

They are very closely linked.

Status being total one-upmanship, where you want everyone you care about to know that you've a fancy and ususally expensive bike - top end Treks, Specialized...

With Discernment it's about you showing those in know that you also are in the know....so Look, Cervelo, Time...but also PlanetX, titanium (which looks like steel to the untrained eye) and so on depending who of the in the know crowd you identify with....which is where the "my bike was made in..." arguement comes from.

Thing is neither means that the bikes themselves are bad - infact they probably are all good enough - it depends on who you identify yourself with. So folks who like to show great cost efficiency might well go for a PlanetX 'cos they are a great price and the forum folks rate them as good bikes, hence they are discerning.

Likewise the lines between the two are blurred - for instance Colnago could be seen as either/both a Discerning and Status driven purchase due to the fame of the brand.

With Community it's about what brings you together, so if your mates all have Italian carbon beauties chances are you'll want to fit in, likewise the other end of the scale a gang of steel frame budget hounds are likely to be suspicious of someone on a bespoke Vinier.

One of the things to remember that it's ALL about marketing once to get to a certain standard of product - even cheaper pricing of PlanetX, Focus and Ribble is a marketing position....they claim to be a "smart buy" and quality over price with their packaged bikes, and with that you trade off flexibility and loose some of the support of an LBS and they do get you on the extras like bike building (which to their own tight market isn't always and issue).

It's an emotional buy so aknowledge that and get something that reaches the standard you need and then also "does it" for you.

simonaspinall

BigG67

Good response

I think the customer being a purist road biker can make a striong impact on the pricing. Most road bikers tend to have very strong views so if the product matches up with their belief they will pay for it I.E. the cases you made of community etc.

So the question is, if road biking is important to you and you want the best for your money and are prepared to pay a lot then what do you buy?

What road bike can you get which is high quality, made ethically by unexploited labour (well, not a sweatshop) where you are paying more for the bike and not the name. But it still looks good with some bling!

What road bike north of £2000 is worth the money?

BigG67

simonaspinall

Just my opinion of course but......

I suppose in the most complete way to answer your final question would be.....none, all and of course some!

I'd guess only at tiny minority of those on the forum would truthfully gain any great benefit from a performance point of view between bikes once you get past a certain point of weight and stiffness. I'd say that we'd be better training harder, and that even then the ultra-stiff BB would make no difference to me when I sprint for the line trying to get under 4 hours for my pathetic attempts at a sportive.

Likewise why do we ride? For many it's a health things so the consequences of ride are the intrinsic value and the riding becomes instrimental. Even for the competitors on here the pro ranks prove that equipment only has a slight affect on outcome once a certain level is achieved, I don't think that Milram's poor year is down to riding on Focus and Columbia's amazing year down to the Scotts (though I read that Cav hated his Scott to start with).

So why did I buy a bike that would cost £4500+ to replace? When I'd get a better workout on a heavy steel bike and would get similar performance from a £1,000 bike or even cheaper?

Because of the way it makes me feel...

Both on the bike and off, both when I'm on my own and when I'm with friend. When I appreciate the way it looks and when other say nice bike.

My personal issue is when people criticise this position, saying that it's not worthy or that it's ill informed.

Cycling has NO intrinsic value for me other than the emotional response it creates - in that I love the way I feel on the bike and the fun I have with my friends. To ignore the role the bike plays in that is a mistake to my mind.

Bikes purchases are - like most things that are not necessities - emotional decisions. There's nothing wrong with that, indeed it's the emotional response that we all love, that's why we so often say we love our bikes.......no too often you hear someone loving their broadband package.[/u]

simonaspinall

Errr...maybe a test ride then

BigG67

hmmm...sorry I did go on "a bit".....finding the day a bit dull at work. :shock:

simonaspinall

Haha

Take yourself out from the branding/marketing mindset (a very good perspective but maybe not in recommending bikes )

What would accountant look to buy for return on investment? And don't say it depends what you're looking for!

Pure 'return on investment' purchase - What gets the most bang for your buck in frame, groupset and wheels at £2K+?

If you were say a bunched sprinter...? Or general sportives?

BigG67

First off, some words of caution:

- Get fitted properly, the cost of mistakes are higher
- prioritise in this order, frame, wheels, groupset, "bits"
- Watch the geometry and match it to your use...don't get a hardcore racing set-up if you want to do 100 mile sportives
- Check the dealer set-up and that any warranty issues are easily covered
- When you see a real bargin make sure that you don't forget the principles that you want to stick to, you'll forget the £200 you saved in 3-4 months but if you get a badly fitted bike or one that's the wrong colour even you'll be living with it for years.

Then my VERY personal position would be...

For £2k I'd give Focus a really good look (even though it's on Wiggle and you can't test ride), if they float your boat you'll get good kit for the money from Trek, Giant and Specialized.

With the budget you'll struggle to get into the fancier names like Colnago, Cervelo (in carbon anyway), De Rosa or Willier and the like other than the base level bikes.

Or you could go for a PlanetX or Ribble and spec it up a lot.

I'd also look at titanium and give Sunday Bikes, Van Nicholas and Enigma a look. One of my mates rides a Van Nicholas and a Cervelo and he loves the titanium for day in day out riding.

pianoman

Or you could go for a PlanetX or Ribble and spec it up a lot.

Planet X - I've heard good things about their customer service. And you can pick one up for a grand at GB cycles with Campag Veloce (if he has any left) :P

Ribble...........I'll keep my thoughts to myself on that one :twisted:

For carbon makes, I think you could include the Wilier Mortirolo Veloce, and look at Bianchi if you want a classy brand.

I'd also look at titanium

You said it, nice one! I've got a Van Nicholas Chinook and it's far more comfortable than my Giant OCR ever was. For sure, titanium isn't as stiff as carbon but I know someone who did a mid-23 minute ride on the Tarleton "10" recently, and he was using an Airborne with clip-ons. So it's fast for him!

It's true what is being said here - if YOU are a fast rider then you'll appreciate stiffness for flat riding if you push your bike hard, and you'll appreciate light weight if you are a light rider who is great at hill-climbing, but simply putting a newbie on a sub-7kg bike will get them nowhere, no arguments.

Think about what you really want to do with the bike, and after that, what you might want to do in the future (racing/TT's/sportives). Then, pick a classy brand as I've outlined above! (Oh yes, and consider Trek, Giant and Scott as others have said).