The Best Rider in the World for 2009

frenchfighter

DG. May I draw this to you in case you missed it:

frenchfighter wrote:

all show and no go, I agree about the passion element and to be honest, those type of qualities are the ones I really like Contador for. I haven't mentioned too much about them as people tend to fry me for them. I did however mention his capabilities in the first post as I see them. I am not a numbers person, so don't have a HRM or Powermeter and many of the riders I admire don't train with a power meter at least. Contador and Martins are two that ride on feel and that makes for one reason why I like them.

Thanks for the info on those other sports. Possibly I'll take a look but then I think Road Cycling is in a completly different league of its own and I don't follow any other sports (I don't even Watch football).

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Cav is where he is on the list because of his MSR win - which gave him 100 points. That's half the points that Bertie got for the Tour - all in one go. If not for that win - he would be much further down the list, which I think is wrong.

I have Cav's points at 275 for MSR and Contador's at 600 (excluding all points but the overall).

Take out Cav's win and whe ranks 8th which is still a long way above Greipel.

Do you consider the two wins I used to make my point equal?

I have no idea what you're on about!? Cav GOT 100 points for MSR (UCI ranking points). Bertie got 200 for winning the Tour. And Cav only gets 20 points per stage win!?

Let's face it - winning the Tour is a big deal, but it's a lot to do with your team and the support you get. Bertie just sat in the peleton most days. Yes - a few tough individual efforts but he really didn't have to work all that hard for the win. But that's the nature of a stage race.

Contador currently only has 527 points - so what 600 are you talking about?

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

DG. May I draw this to you in case you missed it:

frenchfighter wrote:

all show and no go, I agree about the passion element and to be honest, those type of qualities are the ones I really like Contador for. I haven't mentioned too much about them as people tend to fry me for them. I did however mention his capabilities in the first post as I see them. I am not a numbers person, so don't have a HRM or Powermeter and many of the riders I admire don't train with a power meter at least. Contador and Martins are two that ride on feel and that makes for one reason why I like them.

Thanks for the info on those other sports. Possibly I'll take a look but then I think Road Cycling is in a completly different league of its own and I don't follow any other sports (I don't even Watch football).

I was thinking more in terms of the maths employed in normalising outcomes. They're very good at it. I tried to perform a similar analysis for rugby league but failed!

frenchfighter

Pokerface wrote:

Let's face it - winning the Tour is a big deal, but it's a lot to do with your team and the support you get. Bertie just sat in the peloton most days. Yes - a few tough individual efforts but he really didn't have to work all that hard for the win. But that's the nature of a stage race.

Contador currently only has 527 points - so what 600 are you talking about?

Ok I was using the old UCI ranking points.

As for the first point, two things:
1. Please don't detract from Contador's Tour win. You win a Tour bescause you deserve to (there is luck too in what happens to your competitors). Contador won this Tour on his amazing attack on Verbier (no help from his team), and the Anncey TT (no help from his team). Indeed, most people are of the opinion that Contador didn't receive the help he should have and in fact was purposely hurt by his team on many occasions.
2. In MSR, are you telling me that he was on the front all day? No he was on the front in the last 50m like a sprinter should. I'm not detracting from an incredible performance, just showing that you can apply your point equally to Cav.

Are you not going to answer my question about the equality of wins?

frenchfighter

Ok, DG, I'll take a look. I graduated with a Maths and Stats degree so I should find some interest there.

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

Are you not going to answer my question about the equality of wins?

What was the question?

frenchfighter

You say you consider a win a win - just wondering if you consider the two as equal:

A 200km summit finish in the Tour and a 125km flat race in a early season 1 week stage race

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

You say you consider a win a win - just wondering if you consider the two as equal:

A 200km summit finish in the Tour and a 125km flat race in a early season 1 week stage race

Obviously they suit different riders, so it's hard to compare. You won't get the same rider winning both. And it's not like all 200KM will be uphill!

Early season, late season - it makes no difference. Different riders target different events at different times of the year.


So yes, I count them as the same. Climbers don't win sprints and sprinters don;t win mountain-top stages.

frenchfighter

Back in the day, GC riders could win anything, Classics or GTs. Nowadays I'd say a top GC rider could win any Ardennes and win the Tour but races like Ghent, Flanders etc I don't think so. A sprinter can only win a sprint or the Flanders, Roubaix races. I would love to see Cavendish slant more towards these but there is still time for that.

My point in asking was that I don't consider a ranking by number of wins useful unless you are considering specialities. So Cav kills any in his category as does Contador.

Pokerface

Contador only won one GT. What about the 2 other winners!?

frenchfighter

Pokerface wrote:

Contador only won one GT. What about the 2 other winners!?

What do you mean?

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Contador only won one GT. What about the 2 other winners!?

What do you mean?

I think he means that why, given your instruction to look at this year in isolation, why is Menchov not higher than Contador?

Pokerface

Just meant that if you say Contador kills any in his category (GT rider), then what about looking at Menchov or whoever wins the Vuelta?

Or - what category do you put him in!? As I'm said before - he's the best stage racer in the world. By far. But only won ONE GT THIS year. You can't say he's the best climber or TT rider...

frenchfighter

Oh I see. Fair point.

Similar analysis for Menchov:

Points/km: 11
Points/ race days (65): 19

Wins: 4
Win %: 6%

He only won the Vuelta a la Region de Murcia other than the Giro.

He isn't nearly as good as Contador or Valverde or Schleck as can be seen clearly from the above.

What do you reckon?

---

I do consider Contador the best overall but for sake of argument I would put him in the 'Stage Racer' category.

One GT is amazing in itself. If you win nothing in a year and just the Tour, your season is a success.

I think he is the best climber certainly - who do you think is better?
As for time trialling, I have already shown his performance in the TTs. No one can beat him with a slight hill.

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

One GT is amazing in itself. If you win nothing in a year and just the Tour, your season is a success.

And you (and many others) have given a certain Texan a hard time for doing exactly just that!

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

I think he is the best climber certainly - who do you think is better?
As for time trialling, I have already shown his performance in the TTs. No one can beat him with a slight hill.

You could argue that he didn't win any KOM jerseys. Didn't win any mountain top stages. Therefore he isn't the best climber. Best climber of GT riders? Probably.

Similarly - he only won ONE TT against other GT riders. Yes it had a hill in it. But that was a one-off. No?

frenchfighter

Blimey. The thing that surprises most people about Contador is his TT wins. He was ALWAYS a good TTer. You can look at his TT placings this year and see how good they are. Taking two examples - he beat Cancellara (the best TTer in the World without question) and he beat Wiggins (superb TTer). He also won the Spanish TT Champs.

Why would you think he isn't a good or even amazing TTer?

He won at Verbier - didn't you see that attack? He also 'won' on the Arcalis - not first but beat all those not in the breakaway. He was also 3rd in the Tour's mountain classification. 2nd in Paris Nice mountains classification. Also did you see him in the mountains of Paris Nice - wonderful performances.

Why don't you think he is the best climber?

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

Blimey. The thing that surprises most people about Contador is his TT wins. He was ALWAYS a good TTer. You can look at his TT placings this year and see how good they are. Taking two examples - he beat Cancellara (the best TTer in the World without question) and he beat Wiggins (superb TTer). He also won the Spanish TT Champs.

Why would you think he isn't a good or even amazing TTer?

He won at Verbier - didn't you see that attack? He also 'won' on the Arcalis - not first but beat all those not in the breakaway. He was also 3rd in the Tour's mountain classification. 2nd in Paris Nice mountains classification. Also did you see him in the mountains of Paris Nice - wonderful performances.

Why don't you think he is the best climber?

He beat Cancellara and Wiggins after 3 weeks of Tour de France, that's a different matter than beating them in a one week stage race or a Worlds etc etc and points, as you say, to him being the best stage racer and the best time triallist thereof.

The Monaco TT had a decent hill in it, did it not?

Pokerface

I didn't say he wasn't a good TT rider. But you make him out to be the BEST TT rider.

This really is turning into one giant love-in for him and I'm just bored of it. You win - he's the best.


Except for Cav that is.


Anyone else - feel free to chime in with your pics.

frenchfighter

See my previous post: "Cancellara (the best TTer in the World without question)"

How you can then say I make him out to be the best TTer is completely beyond me.

You say he isn't the best climber, I say he is, I explain why and then you don't address it. I assume then that you agree and have changed your opinion.

Pokerface

I explained why he isn't the best climber. He didn't win any climber's jerseys!

frenchfighter

Anyone else think that if you put Contador and ANY other rider at the bottom of a mountain and say go, that Contador wouldn't reach the top first?

By your same logic: did Cav win the Magenta jersey? Did he win the Green jersey? No. No. So by your logic he isn't the best sprinter. By mine, he is.

JackCB

frenchfighter wrote:

In case you missed it in the OP. Am I still sorely deluded?

frenchfighter wrote:

Let me say first off that this is a subjective question. There are no right or wrong answers. I am interested in people's opinion and the process they used to come to it.

I would be interested to know why you think Contador is the best?

Apologies.

For me, the TdF is the most important race of the season and so the best performer in the TdF (again a highly subjective question) is the best rider in the world that year. And this year I think it was Contador.

But it is a silly question.

frenchfighter

Cool, that makes sense. It is the hardest and most prestigious race in the World and there is so much motivation from the riders to win that it makes the competition very hard.

moray_gub

JackCB wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

In case you missed it in the OP. Am I still sorely deluded?

frenchfighter wrote:

Let me say first off that this is a subjective question. There are no right or wrong answers. I am interested in people's opinion and the process they used to come to it.

I would be interested to know why you think Contador is the best?

Apologies.

For me, the TdF is the most important race of the season and so the best performer in the TdF (again a highly subjective question) is the best rider in the world that year. And this year I think it was Contador.

But it is a silly question.

So on that basis you think Lance was number one cyclist in the years 1999-2005 ?

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

JackCB wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

In case you missed it in the OP. Am I still sorely deluded?

frenchfighter wrote:

Let me say first off that this is a subjective question. There are no right or wrong answers. I am interested in people's opinion and the process they used to come to it.

I would be interested to know why you think Contador is the best?

Apologies.
For me, the TdF is the most important race of the season and so the best performer in the TdF (again a highly subjective question) is the best rider in the world that year. And this year I think it was Contador.

But it is a silly question.

So on that basis you think Lance was number one cyclist in the years 1999-2005 ?

On that basis, there can be no question, or room for manoeuvre.

rockmount

Moray Gub wrote:

JackCB wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

In case you missed it in the OP. Am I still sorely deluded?

frenchfighter wrote:

Let me say first off that this is a subjective question. There are no right or wrong answers. I am interested in people's opinion and the process they used to come to it.

I would be interested to know why you think Contador is the best?

Apologies.

For me, the TdF is the most important race of the season and so the best performer in the TdF (again a highly subjective question) is the best rider in the world that year. And this year I think it was Contador.

But it is a silly question.

So on that basis you think Lance was number one cyclist in the years 1999-2005 ?

Check mate I think.

frenchfighter

Now this question can be re-addressed as it is later in the season but more importantly, Valverde now has more points than Contador on the CQ ranking and is 2nd to Contador on the UCI World Rankings.

Having a further look at Valverde's palmares for 2009, I would probably have to consider him better than Contador. It is a tricky and tight one though. Adding the Vuelta has really boosted him (although it would have been nice to see a stage win). Had he been allowed to ride the Tour we could likely add at least one stage win and a very good placing.

Another aspect in his favour, particularly in comparison to Contador, is his long season and his consistent performance. After the Dauphine, he rode:
Vuelta a la Comunidad de Madrid (2nd)
Clasica San Sebastian (17th)
Vuelta a Burgos (1st)
Vuelta (1st, 2nd Points, 4th Mountains)
Worlds (9th).

Contador has been more efficient but that does not swing it back into his favour. Valverde has been preoccupied this season which could have easily meant he couldn't perform at his best. For those who think he was a doper in the past, you cannot deny that he is an increidble rider based on 2009, which I think the vast majority of people will think he rode clean.