Baseball

dennisn

When I was a boy playing baseball I thought that the New York Yankees were just the greatest. They seemed to always win it all. Whipping up on everyone. I was a true fan
at that age. Strange part of it was that, outside of New Yorkers, I seemed to be fairly alone in my Yankee fan club. Everyone else sort of hated them because they won so much. And they would tell you that's why they hated them. To this day I still find that a
little strange and inexplicable, at least to me. Comments?????

iainf72

This is a cycling forum and you're trying to use baseball as a metaphor for Armstrong.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

This is a cycling forum and you're trying to use baseball as a metaphor for Armstrong.

Why not???? Seemed like a good idea to me. Something to talk about. You have the option of not replying.

FJS

It's not a very good metaphor, if the Yankees 'won it all' (I know little about baseball history). Armstrong didn't 'win it all', he generally won only one race each season out of the many great races there are to win.

all show no go

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players. They've won most of the big Domestic and European competitions over the past fifteen years or so whilst all the time pressuring officials, from referees to the various governing bodies, to let the club get results which suit themselves or apply calendar changes etc. Also they have a player (Rio Ferdinand) who was banned for failing to turn up for drugs tests out of competition. He's never been found positive, but people have had their suspicions. One of Uniteds players (Jaap Stam) left the club under a cloud and later failed a drugs test at his next club.
Whether all of this sounds anything at all like the way Armstrong works or is perceived is purely coincidental............!

dennisn

FJS wrote:

It's not a very good metaphor, if the Yankees 'won it all' (I know little about baseball history). Armstrong didn't 'win it all', he generally won only one race each season out of the many great races there are to win.

You make a good point. A lot of people on this forum seem to dislike him because he only won "one" race. I'm not so sure that calling a 3 week long race "one" is exactly correct.
Although, even if it is only "one" race, it's THE "one".

moray_gub

all show no go wrote:

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players. They've won most of the big Domestic and European competitions over the past fifteen years or so whilst all the time pressuring officials, from referees to the various governing bodies, to let the club get results which suit themselves or apply calendar changes etc. Also they have a player (Rio Ferdinand) who was banned for failing to turn up for drugs tests out of competition. He's never been found positive, but people have had their suspicions. One of Uniteds players (Jaap Stam) left the club under a cloud and later failed a drugs test at his next club.
Whether all of this sounds anything at all like the way Armstrong works or is perceived is purely coincidental............!

They have won the most becuase they have the best manager by far and have wads of cash nothing more to it than that , as far as pressurising officials etc every football club in the land does that to some degree.

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

FJS wrote:

It's not a very good metaphor, if the Yankees 'won it all' (I know little about baseball history). Armstrong didn't 'win it all', he generally won only one race each season out of the many great races there are to win.

You make a good point. A lot of people on this forum seem to dislike him because he only won "one" race. I'm not so sure that calling a 3 week long race "one" is exactly correct.
Although, even if it is only "one" race, it's THE "one".

Its a bit like Brazil's national football team they went 40 years without winning the Copa America but only focused and won 4 crappy World Cups in between .

dennisn

all show no go wrote:

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players. They've won most of the big Domestic and European competitions over the past fifteen years or so whilst all the time pressuring officials, from referees to the various governing bodies, to let the club get results which suit themselves or apply calendar changes etc. Also they have a player (Rio Ferdinand) who was banned for failing to turn up for drugs tests out of competition. He's never been found positive, but people have had their suspicions. One of Uniteds players (Jaap Stam) left the club under a cloud and later failed a drugs test at his next club.
Whether all of this sounds anything at all like the way Armstrong works or is perceived is purely coincidental............!

I can understand fans not liking a team or player for drug use, cheating, and other devious means but this was not the case back then(50's, 60's). No one ever seemed to say I hate them because they are cheaters, or whatever, it all seemed to be a case of
"they win too much". Maybe, back then, as now, it was in the minds of people that you can't win that much without cheating, but it was never said. It was always someone saying "I'm sick of them winning so much and sick of hearing about it". So, maybe, say you have a guy like Lance and every year, for a month or so, the only way you can avoid hearing his name is to live in a cave. It never bothered me that the Yankees won a lot or that you heard about them all the time but other people seemed to take another view.

all show no go

They have won the most becuase they have the best manager by far and have wads of cash nothing more to it than that , as far as pressurising officials etc every football club in the land does that to some degree.[/quote]

Oh yes, I almost forgot, Sir Alex Ferguson blacklists certain section of the media (The BBC) because they don't fall in to line with his way of thinking.

Sun Dodger

all show no go wrote:

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players.

Actually most football fans in Manchester hate United....

flattythehurdler

No great hatred of Tiger Woods anywhere over here. :?
Oh yes, he's not behaved like Lance

deal

I agree with Moray Gub about the manager, but they have not have wads of cash for some time (atleast in comparison to chelsea and man city), and even when they had the finances to allow big spending a large part of the team were from youth development. There was a recent report that said the teams with the most stable squads were the most sucessfull.

I find it hard to attach any blame to Manchester United for Stam's positive - if i remember rightly there were many members of the dutch squad and other Italian based players who tested positive around the same time (i think nandrolone). Yes ferdinand was a wally but lets not forget he was punished very harshly (in comparison to other players at the time - personally think they should all have done 2 years). Just checked, Jaap Stam and Edgar Davids only got 4 months for testing positive, Frank DeBoer got even less, Ferdinand got 8 months. This doesnt square with the accusation that they manage to pressure various people to 'get results which suit themselves' or perhaps suggests that they arent very good at it.

Anyway chelsea have far more dirt for example
- 'Blood Spinning'
- Muto and Bosnich failing drugs tests (cocaine)
- During the sacking of Muto it became clear Chelsea had been using private drug testing facilities - a clear breach of anti-doping rules, they got off with a small fine.

Ferguson black lists the bbc because they made a documentary accusing him and his son of illegal activities

Finally, what a rubbish thread cant beleive i have just wasted 10 minutes writing this

dennisn

flattythehurdler wrote:

No great hatred of Tiger Woods anywhere over here. :?
Oh yes, he's not behaved like Lance

I thought it was drugs that you didn't like about Lance? So now he's also got to behave the way you think he should? Along with confessing, showing sorrow for his actions, apologizing to everyone, etc., etc.? Seriously, do you really expect ANYONE to do all this
just because you say so? It's like you're saying "If you don't do this I'll hate you". You'd get laughed at at best.
As for Tiger Woods, he's the exception to my theory of people hating "winners". At least for now. Always an exception to every rule.

sudholz

I'd like to know if Dennis also supports ManU?

afx237vi

sudholz wrote:

I'd like to know if Dennis also supports ManU?

No, he's never met Alex Ferguson or any of the players, therefore he has no opinion of them whatsoever.

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

sudholz wrote:

I'd like to know if Dennis also supports ManU?

No, he's never met Alex Ferguson or any of the players, therefore he has no opinion of them whatsoever.

I think it's possible to meet someone, become friends(or enemies), and have an entirely different opinion of that person than if you had never met and simply read about him. Sort of like the old, "Gee, he wasn't at all like I thought he would be" kind of thing.
I'm not much of a football fan. Not even U.S. football. Although some years back my wife and I got hooked on Australian Rules Football, on ESPN, until they stopped showing it for whatever reason.

mgcycleguy

If LA supporters think they have it bad.... they should try being a Leeds United supporter...


M.O.T

pepelepew

Sun Dodger wrote:

all show no go wrote:

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players.

Actually most football fans in Manchester hate United....

Absolutely. Glory hunters from everywhere BUT Manchester! Sky armchair supporters.

afx237vi

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

sudholz wrote:

I'd like to know if Dennis also supports ManU?

No, he's never met Alex Ferguson or any of the players, therefore he has no opinion of them whatsoever.

I think it's possible to meet someone, become friends(or enemies), and have an entirely different opinion of that person than if you had never met and simply read about him. Sort of like the old, "Gee, he wasn't at all like I thought he would be" kind of thing.
I'm not much of a football fan. Not even U.S. football. Although some years back my wife and I got hooked on Australian Rules Football, on ESPN, until they stopped showing it for whatever reason.

Well at least you're admitting that's even possible, which is a start.

redddraggon

all show no go wrote:

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players. They've won most of the big Domestic and European competitions over the past fifteen years or so whilst all the time pressuring officials, from referees to the various governing bodies, to let the club get results which suit themselves or apply calendar changes etc. Also they have a player (Rio Ferdinand) who was banned for failing to turn up for drugs tests out of competition. He's never been found positive, but people have had their suspicions. One of Uniteds players (Jaap Stam) left the club under a cloud and later failed a drugs test at his next club.
Whether all of this sounds anything at all like the way Armstrong works or is perceived is purely coincidental............!

I've got to say Man united are one of my least hated (of the teams I actually have an opinion of) in the PL. I hate City more than any other club TBH

After City come Aston Villa and Tottenham, then comes Chelsea and Liverpool. Don't really mind Arsenal or United TBH.

I'd really like to see Man City get relegated though.

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

sudholz wrote:

I'd like to know if Dennis also supports ManU?

No, he's never met Alex Ferguson or any of the players, therefore he has no opinion of them whatsoever.

I think it's possible to meet someone, become friends(or enemies), and have an entirely different opinion of that person than if you had never met and simply read about him. Sort of like the old, "Gee, he wasn't at all like I thought he would be" kind of thing.
I'm not much of a football fan. Not even U.S. football. Although some years back my wife and I got hooked on Australian Rules Football, on ESPN, until they stopped showing it for whatever reason.

Well at least you're admitting that's even possible, which is a start.

I would qualify that by saying, there is a big difference between actually meeting a person
and spending time getting to know them as opposed to saying you KNOW this person by what you have read or heard about them.

dennisn

Back to my original question. What is it about winning a lot that seems to turn, more than a few people, toward cheering for the underdog? How many more medals could Phelps
have won before everyone started to say "again - ho hum, yawn"?

deal

dennisn wrote:

Back to my original question. What is it about winning a lot that seems to turn, more than a few people, toward cheering for the underdog? How many more medals could Phelps
have won before everyone started to say "again - ho hum, yawn"?

If you really want to know the answer you could have just googled it. - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V6UL ... q=&f=false

timoid.

redddraggon wrote:

I've got to say Man united are one of my least hated (of the teams I actually have an opinion of) in the PL. I hate City more than any other club TBH

After City come Aston Villa and Tottenham, then comes Chelsea and Liverpool. Don't really mind Arsenal or United TBH.

I'd really like to see Man City get relegated though.

Crikey. That's almost exactly what I think. City are now scum. Can't stand Spores and not a big fan of Chelsea or Liverpool. Villa are nyeh.


I actually quite like Manyoo and Arsenal out of the "big four".

You must be an Everton fan too.

timoid.

dennisn wrote:

When I was a boy playing baseball I thought that the New York Yankees were just the greatest. They seemed to always win it all. Whipping up on everyone. I was a true fan
at that age. Strange part of it was that, outside of New Yorkers, I seemed to be fairly alone in my Yankee fan club. Everyone else sort of hated them because they won so much. And they would tell you that's why they hated them. To this day I still find that a
little strange and inexplicable, at least to me. Comments?????

A better comparison would be equating the Yankees with Eddy Merckx. I think people got a bit p1ssed off with him in the 70s as he was too dominant.

The dislike of Armstrong is due to his attitude and his methods of winning and perhaps his lack of respect for any race outside of the Tour.

BikingBernie

Baseball? Isn't that the American version of 'rounders' that kids play at school?

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

This is a cycling forum and you're trying to use baseball as a metaphor for Armstrong.

You mean in that both Armstrong and 'Baseball' are inextricably associated with 'heroic' levels of doping?

moray_gub

pepelepew wrote:

Sun Dodger wrote:

all show no go wrote:

In England we have Manchester United,. Almost every football fan outside of Manchester and the Home Counties hates them because for too long they have ridden rough-shod over other teams with regards to fair play and honesty when it comes to playing the game and acquiring players.

Actually most football fans in Manchester hate United....

Absolutely. Glory hunters from everywhere BUT Manchester! Sky armchair supporters.

Aahh that old chestnut strange but whenever the cameras interview fans outside Old Trafford or at away games they all seem to have Manc accents.Like most clubs this size size they have support from all over the country as well. The gloryhunter thing usually stems from supporters of smaller clubs somehow thinking they are more pure supporters because their team never wins anything but they still go every week complete with the cloth cap and whippet probably ignorant of the fact that clubs like Man U, Chelase have fans that have been going every week for decades as well.

dougzz

dennisn wrote:

When I was a boy playing baseball I thought that the New York Yankees were just the greatest. They seemed to always win it all. Whipping up on everyone. I was a true fan
at that age. Strange part of it was that, outside of New Yorkers, I seemed to be fairly alone in my Yankee fan club. Everyone else sort of hated them because they won so much. And they would tell you that's why they hated them. To this day I still find that a
little strange and inexplicable, at least to me. Comments?????

Hi Denis,

We've clashed before on LA and agreed to disagree so I'll not comment on that directly. But I think your analogy is flawed. People outside NYC typically hate the Yankees because they represent the money element that has destroyed the ideal of an equal playing field. The Yankees pay A-Rod more than the the entire Tampa payroll of a couple of years ago. How can Pittsburgh or Cincinnati compete? They have a great record this year but they've not won the Series for a while and that's despite the massive payroll. You may read this as a dig at LA but Baseball analogies are bound to invite drug related comments given the huge problem that sport has had with drugs, even now there's denial. How can you consider the records of Sosa and McGuire to be valid?


PS. To save the need for some obvious replies, I don't care if it's a cycling forum I'll comment on whatever I like

disgruntledgoat

Timoid. wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

I've got to say Man united are one of my least hated (of the teams I actually have an opinion of) in the PL. I hate City more than any other club TBH

After City come Aston Villa and Tottenham, then comes Chelsea and Liverpool. Don't really mind Arsenal or United TBH.

I'd really like to see Man City get relegated though.

Crikey. That's almost exactly what I think. City are now scum. Can't stand Spores and not a big fan of Chelsea or Liverpool. Villa are nyeh.


I actually quite like Manyoo and Arsenal out of the "big four".

You must be an Everton fan too.

St. Helens and Wigan for me. I can't quite bring myself to have anything other than a passing chuckle at Widnes.