There Must be a Sponsor out there?
Comments
-
Sorry, but I can't see one word in that article about the poor treatment of cyclists on Britain's roads. Do you any likes to article on this issue from Cooke in papers such as the Times, as Victoria Pendleton has?stagehopper wrote:Cooke has often spoken eloquently on the poor treatment of cyclists. Similarly on the gender inequality in cycling. Just take this article:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/n ... roes-13196
By the way, I know the BBC reporter who put together a survey a couple of years ago which asked Britain's Olympic team about their experience of riding in Britain. Many riders spoke out in no uncertain terms including Emma Davies Jones and Rob Hayles, and they were widely reported in papers such as the Times, as well as on Radio Four. Nicole Cooke was not amongst these. Doubtless in her own narrow world, having more road races for women is a far more important issue to campaign about.0 -
Bernie the link was a response to your claim about her having "little intelligence" which is clearly utter bollocks as anyone who has read her interviews will attest. Maybe you struggle with her accent
0 -
I never said that, what I actually said was 'Cooke hardly crackles with wit and intelligence'. I.e. she doesn't come across as one of those people who really capture people's interest when speaking.stagehopper wrote:Bernie the link was a response to your claim about her having "little intelligence" which is clearly utter bollocks as anyone who has read her interviews will attest.
In any case, most of the actual quotations from Cooke in that interview are just the same old clichés any bike rider might come out with: "Next year the Olympics is the key event so my training is built up to it"; "I'll ride on mixed terrain in the hills and get some variety in that way" etc. Some of what she says is just self-delusion. For example, "In cycling the women's races are just as exciting as the men's races". To me at least, arguing that in order to promote women’s cycling the UCI should make “every organiser of a men's race…put a women's race on" doesn’t show very much in the way of 'intelligence' either! (Nor much respect for those who keep the sport going). She's not a philosopher, just a bike rider!0 -
I agree with you on the "wit" - she doesn't come across well in broadcast interviews normally but it's nothing to do with intelligence which she's clearly got in bundles.
Bernie - you don't rate women's sport period. You've made that abundantly clear. It could quite easily be argued that the most exciting race of last year was the women's road race at the worlds. It's hard to make a value judgement though as we see so little of the female version of the sport on TV.
On on the "self-delusional" aspect it's a point of view she espoused when on the UCI committee, one I happen to think the UCI could, maybe should, have put more effort into exploring.
If you want to develop a sport you need to look at ways of encouraging access and competition. When the roads are already closed, the press are there, the cameras are there, the race officials are there, it surely makes perfect sense to hold a race for women as well as men? It works at the Tour Of Flanders, Fleche Wallone, GP Plouay etc
I'm starting to think she must burnt you off her wheel on a training ride once, such is your distaste for her 0 -
I never said that I 'don't rate' women's sport. What I did do was point out some reasons why men's racing is seen as being more of an attraction, and my point about sport supposedly being about 'superlatives' is probably the main one. Sure, women's racing doesn't get the coverage of men's elite racing, but neither does disabled, junior and non-elite male racing, all of which have the potential for 'exciting' racing. Why should women's racing get more coverage than junior or non-elite male racing, other than the patronising reason that it involves women? In all cases the competitors are taking part in events specially created for them because they are racing at a disadvantage as compared to male elite athletes.stagehopper wrote:Bernie - you don't rate women's sport period. You've made that abundantly clear.
I guess that's why I said earlier "I was a long time fan of Cooke's, admiring her gritty way of racing".stagehopper wrote:I'm starting to think she must burnt you off her wheel on a training ride once, such is your distaste for her
Still, it makes a change from being accused of being a 'hater' for being critical of Armstrong I suppose. :roll:0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Are you saying that Ms. Pendleton is actually a bit of a hound? :shock:mrushton wrote:Also that pic. comparison isn't fair. Cooke has just won the Olympic Gold after pulling her tripes out in the RR in a torrential rainstorm. VP has been photographed for the cover of a glossy mag with all that entails ie. lights,make-up,budget and airbrushing
I think that it would take a bit more than make-up to make Nicole Cooke look feminine. Just check out those arms and that, ahem, 'chest'.
Pendleton is a reasonably attractive woman - though if she weren't famous for her sport she wouldn't be in demand for supposedly sexy photo shoots - but she isn't exactly a personality. I'd have thought Cooke had a lot more going for her in that sense.
Maybe some men (one in particular on this thread) don't like Cooke's obviously competitive and independent nature. As a role model for girls I think she's fantastic - if that isn't popular then shame on the people who don't like it.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Why not try to challenge what I have actually said, rather than making an unjustified ad hominem attack?Tom Butcher wrote:Maybe some men (one in particular on this thread) don't like Cooke's obviously competitive and independent nature. As a role model for girls I think she's fantastic...
I have never said that Cooke doesn’t offer a great role model for girls either. I have a young daughter and would like to think that she can do and be whatever she wants to. That doesn’t mean to say that I have to believe that women’s cycle racing, any more than junior, disabled and non-elite cycling should be give the same coverage, and offer the same financial rewards, as elite male sport. To say that women racers should on the grounds they are women and can't be expected to compete for the big prizes in male pro cycling is simply patronising. Whatever next? People arguing that separate 'lower achiever' degrees should be awarded to less intelligent students, which non-the less must be treated as being the equivalent of a first from Oxbridge?0 -
I have to say I'm slightly bemused at all this... the Govt. is desperatly trying to get lazy fat kids off their fat arse's and do some exercise, before the NHS is bled dry trying to keep these future slobs alive.... rather than subsidising school meals etc etc... why not divert some cash and put some money behind sports teams and sports people like Cooke to be role models... then get the BBC to cover some of these "other" sports (I mean do we really need so many channels chasing Football ?)
... edit... thinking about it, you could pay for the "sponsorship" by doubling VAT on computer games... ?0 -
You (Bernie) criticised Cooke's personality - saying she came across as lacking wit, intelligence and that she is someone who fails to capture the imagination when she speaks.
Clearly her personality doesn't appeal to you - but I find her much more interesting and engaging than Pendleton.
I then speculated as to why you don't like Cooke's personality and suggested it may be because you don't like her obviously competitive and independent nature.
Clear enough for you ?
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
And others agreed...Tom Butcher wrote:You (Bernie) criticised Cooke's personality - saying she came across as lacking wit, intelligence and that she is someone who fails to capture the imagination when she speaks.
If you read what I said most of my comments related to he failure to use her position to campaign for her fellow cyclists, as many other top riders have done, including Pendleton. This suggets a narrowness of attitude. (That is, she never thinks of anything other than women's cycle racing - she says she has no interest in men’s cycling, effectively dismissing every male pro cyclist as a doper - and how she could get more races on the calendar for her to win).Tom Butcher wrote:Clearly her personality doesn't appeal to you - but I find her much more interesting and engaging than Pendleton.
Which amounted to an an hominem attack, as well as being wrong...Tom Butcher wrote:I then speculated as to why you don't like Cooke's personality and suggested it may be because you don't like her obviously competitive and independent nature.0 -
Point 1 - some others may have agreed - I disagreed. This was addressing the points you made or in your terms what you "actually said".
Point 2 - Pendleton may have made a few comments about cyclists needing more protection - good. As has already been pointed out on this thread Cooke herself has campaigned on issues close to her heart - for example the position of women in sport - also good.
Point 3 - Well you obviously have a dislike of her which isn't justified by anything you've written so people are going to speculate why.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
You are making yet another false assumption. Why not try to challenge the logic of my arguments instead? You don't have to 'dislike' someone in order to speak the truth you know.Tom Butcher wrote:you obviously have a dislike of her which isn't justified by anything you've written so people are going to speculate why.0 -
You are fucking priceless.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Exactly which point of mine are you trying to refute by that statement? Whichever it was, it needs more development...Tom Butcher wrote:You are ******* priceless.0 -
Have you made any more points ?
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Other than making ad hominem attacks and saying 'I disagree' you don’t appear to have attempted to refute any of the main points I have made so far. For example, my point about sport being about 'superlatives', and my suggestion that the argument that the same coverage should be given to women's cycle racing as is given to elite male racing equally implies that junior, disabled and non-elite cycling should also be given the same amount of coverage. (And of course, by the same logic not only women but juniors, the disabled and so on should also get the same financial rewards as elite male cyclists).Tom Butcher wrote:Have you made any more points ?
To say that this should be done in the case of women only is both discriminatory and patronising. OK, so women might be genetically at a disadvantege in comparison with elite male cyclists, but so are most males!0 -
The reason why womens sports will never be particularly popular is because the VAST majority of the sport-watching public is made up of men.
Women just aren't that interested in sport. And I say that as a woman. This has two knock-on effects; 1) women don't really have any interest in watching sport so women's disciplines are rarely shown due to lack of interest. 2) Women don't take part in sport to the same degree as men do so there is a far, far smaller pool of talent for the top athletes to come from. This of course means that the skill levels of female athletes across the board is likely to be far lower than those of male atheletes (without even considering any genetic disadvantages). I frequently take part in cycling events where the turn out for the womens events is roughly 10% to that of the men.
Personally I would enjoy watching womens cycling on TV as I would be able to relate to the female athletes far better than to male ones but I do appreciate that there are not enough women interested in the sport to create a big enough market.
I don't blame men for not wanting to watch womens sports. Why should they when the speeds, distances and skill levels in the men's events are much higher?
Of course, the only time a female athlete can really transcend her sport is if she is very attractive but then this goes for many walks of life and for men as well (Mr. Beckham anyone?). Anna Kournikova never won a professional tournament in her career but was (still is) a household name because of her looks. That is always going to happen and is pretty irrelevent to the larger question.
If women start to make up a larger proportion of the sport-watching public then we'll see a greater demand for womens disciplines. But I don't really see that happening any time soon.
Womens disciplines always work best in sports where the womens events can be mixed with the mens in the larger tournaments - sports like athletics, tennis, track cyling - where they'll be watched by the audience along side the mens events. Only in these sports can women really make any kind of name for themselves through athletic ability alone.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:If you read what I said most of my comments related to he failure to use her position to campaign for her fellow cyclists, as many other top riders have done, including Pendleton.
This seems to be a very specifc point you keep bringing up. Do you know if Cooke was approached to help on this campaign or even made aware of its existence?
There is quite a big difference between her and Pendleton in that Cooke has lived in Italy and Switzerland since 2002 whereas Pendleton is UK-based. As such ant media requests are much easier to facilitate in terms of interviews to camera, local radio studio etc.0 -
Cooke seems to have no trouble making herself available when the topic under discussion is just how great she is at bike racing.stagehopper wrote:
This seems to be a very specifc point you keep bringing up. Do you know if Cooke was approached to help on this campaign or even made aware of its existence?BikingBernie wrote:If you read what I said most of my comments related to he failure to use her position to campaign for her fellow cyclists, as many other top riders have done, including Pendleton.
There is quite a big difference between her and Pendleton in that Cooke has lived in Italy and Switzerland since 2002 whereas Pendleton is UK-based. As such ant media requests are much easier to facilitate in terms of interviews to camera, local radio studio etc. 0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Cooke seems to have no trouble making herself available when the topic under discussion is just how great she is at bike racing.stagehopper wrote:
This seems to be a very specifc point you keep bringing up. Do you know if Cooke was approached to help on this campaign or even made aware of its existence?BikingBernie wrote:If you read what I said most of my comments related to he failure to use her position to campaign for her fellow cyclists, as many other top riders have done, including Pendleton.
There is quite a big difference between her and Pendleton in that Cooke has lived in Italy and Switzerland since 2002 whereas Pendleton is UK-based. As such ant media requests are much easier to facilitate in terms of interviews to camera, local radio studio etc.
Exactly which point of mine are you trying to refute by that statement? Whichever it was, it needs more development... 0 -
The point that Cooke is not that unavailable for comment, despite living abroad, if the topic under discussion is her own racing career. In fact a central point of the BBC feature was that many of the cyclists they contacted were living out of the UK at the time because they found that the hostility they faced on UK roads was not conducive to training.stagehopper wrote:Exactly which point of mine are you trying to refute by that statement?0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Other than making ad hominem attacks and saying 'I disagree' you don’t appear to have attempted to refute any of the main points I have made so far. For example, my point about sport being about 'superlatives', and my suggestion that the argument that the same coverage should be given to women's cycle racing as is given to elite male racing equally implies that junior, disabled and non-elite cycling should also be given the same amount of coverage. (And of course, by the same logic not only women but juniors, the disabled and so on should also get the same financial rewards as elite male cyclists).Tom Butcher wrote:Have you made any more points ?
To say that this should be done in the case of women only is both discriminatory and patronising. OK, so women might be genetically at a disadvantege in comparison with elite male cyclists, but so are most males!
I haven't tried to refute all of what you wrote because I didn't disagree with all of it. The points I did disagree with - your comments about her personality and criticism for not being a campaigner - I put forward an alternative opinion. I then speculated as to why you feel it necessary to criticise Cooke in such a personal way.
Yes you make some valid points. You also make some invalid points - criticising a bike racer for wanting to talk about bike racing - how dare she! As has already been pointed out she has spoken about the position of women in sport in general and women in bike racing. That seems to me a very valid and praiseworthy thing for her to do and certainly to draw a unflattering comparison between Cooke and Pendleton in that regard is unfair.
If she thinks all cyclists should have to wear helmets then I disagree with her on that - but it's not something she bangs on about because I've never heard her say it and if she has then she's hardly unique amongst cyclists in thinking that.
As for your criticism of style of posting - your posts are full of personal attacks, unjustified assumptions and lack any real response to what people write - yet your responses suggest you think they are fit for peer reviewed publication. From this thread the main things you have against Cooke are the size of her tits, that you don't like her dad and she isn't vying with Nelson Mandela for the Nobel Peace Prize.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
I never said that I had something against Cooke because of, as you put it, 'the size of her tits'. Rather I pointed out that in a world where image and 'sex appeal' counts for so much, especially in marketing and advertising, Cooke's limited 'feminine allure' inevitably counts against her.Tom Butcher wrote:From this thread the main things you have against Cooke are the size of her tits, that you don't like her dad and she isn't vying with Nelson Mandela for the Nobel Peace Prize.
As I did say, I used to be a fan of Cooke's. I actually went off her when she agreed to help the DfT promote cycle helmets as part of the THINK 'road safety' campaign. For example:
Nicole Cooke said:
"There is nothing better than being out and about on my bike, especially in the summer. But it's easy to forget that drivers don't always see you, even if you can see them. I wear a helmet every time I ride my bike, whether I'm on the road or the racetrack. I'm giving my support to the THINK! campaign to try to encourage more young people to do the same."
Quote: 'it's easy to forget that drivers don't always see you, even if you can see them'. Not a very intelligent thing to say at all. ‘It's easy to forget that drivers don't always take proper observations' would be a more accurate thing to say. Pity that she was not bright enough to see how such comments help to minimise the responsibility carried by motorists for the safety of other road users, passing most of the responsibility for avoiding road crashes onto vulnerable road users instead.
Her comments also helped to reinforce the frankly idiotic idea that an inch of brittle polystyrene, which is only capable of limiting the deceleration of the head to 400g even when the impact load is a mere 90 joules, can somehow offer a meaningful level of protection should a cyclist be hit by a car driver who 'didn't see you'.
To top things off she made her comments when the MP Eric Martlew and the 'BHIT' organisation were doing everything possible to try to force legislation though Parliament making it an offence to allow a child to cycle without a helmet, even in a park or your own back garden!0 -
Fair enough - I disagree with her on that .
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
To be fair Jamie Staff was as complicit as Cooke. He was quoted by the DfT as saying:
"Cycling is a great way to keep fit but if you don't do it safely, the results can be disastrous. Helmets can help reduce the chances and severity of head injuries - yet most young cyclists don't wear them. I am lending my support to the THINK campaign to make young bikers aware of how important it is to cycle safely and to wear a helmet every time they ride their bikes."
Jason Queally also supported BHIT for a while, and then wisely changed his stance.0 -
Here are a couple of reasons why I prefer Pendleton.
The Times
September 13, 2008
Interview with Olympic cyclist Victoria Pendleton
Victoria Pendleton has a sharp warning for drivers who tear past cyclists at close quarters - watch out, you might kill a British Olympic medallist. Pendleton, who won gold at Beijing in the women's sprint, is campaigning to get more of us cycling on the street. But driver awareness is key, she says.
For starters, many motorists could at least stop being offensive as well as dangerous, says Pendleton, 27, who is fronting the Sky Sports London Freewheel next weekend, when the capital's roads are closed to all but cyclists. “I have to train on the road daily. It's crucial for endurance work. But the abuse I get from drivers ... 'Get of the effing road', and 'Buy an effing car', are typical. I'm usually dressed in the Team GB kit, but drivers take no notice of that.” Although she's incensed and talking even faster than usual, Pendleton is too head-girlish to say the “F-word”. She really does say “effing”. But this slim, smartly attractive woman can get angry, so watch out.
“It does my head in that people have no regard for my safety. If someone cuts me up, I will sometimes catch up and have a go at them. It's not like their journeys are so important. They're usually off to the shops to waste some more money. Honestly, what's a few seconds in their pointless life for the sake of not killing me?”
Her fears are sadly justified. Her British teammate and fellow Manchester cyclist, Emma Davies-Jones, was left with a broken back after being knocked off her bike on the way to train at the city's Velodrome in 2005. Despite the injury and having to take painkillers constantly, she recovered sufficiently to win bronze in the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne. But before the crash she had been tipped for gold.
Pendleton's solution is to get more bikes on the streets. “If that happened, there would be fewer cars and it would be better for everyone.You're keeping fit, looking after your body and reducing pollution. Cycling should not be a crime - there's that dumb Clarkson mentality that cars just rule. In your driving test, you should be put on a stationary bike and have a car whizz past you close at 50mph. It's terrifying, even if you have to experience it every day.”
The Guardian,
Tuesday October 28 2008
"...what other sport has to deal with the attitude we get as cyclists on the road? I certainly haven't noticed any sudden courtesy to cyclists in the wake of us being the most successful British team in the Olympics. I cycle to the velodrome most days and I have one narrow escape for every hour on the road. I just think, 'Holy shit, I could die on my bike out here.'
"To a cyclist, these bloody motorists might as well be running around with a loaded gun. When you have that sort of attitude towards cyclists how are we going to move our sport into the mainstream?"0 -
I've heard that Nicole is quite demanding on those that work with her - might explain the difficultly in attracting the sponsors. I've no doubt about her prodigious talents, but to a marketing person, the price of sponsorship is dictated by exposure - sadly women's cycling gets minimum exposure and therefore the amount of marketing money it attracts - if I was managing a marketing / sponsorship budget, it would be pretty difficult to make a business case for a million for Nicole if all you got were few column inches.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
-
Bernie... Why does Cooke have a responsibility to other cyclists, just because she's bloody good at it herself?
You can feel free to disagree with her on the helmet issue, but I think to use it as a stick to beat her with is a little harsh."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
My mistake. I forget that we live in the post-Thatcherite era where no one has any responsibility to anyone other than themselves and their immediate families...disgruntledgoat wrote:Bernie... Why does Cooke have a responsibility to other cyclists, just because she's bloody good at it herself?0 -
ok, let's say you're right and she has a responsibility to every cyclist on this sceptered isle. Then she says people should wear helmets. But you disagree. So she does involve herself with cycling issues but it's ones you disagree with and as such doesn't count. Am I about right?
For what it's worth, I oppose a helmet law but I think people are entitled to their opinion."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0
