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pedestrians..

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  • spen666spen666 Posts: 17,709
    A bad case of a cyclist involved in a collision with a pedestrian - won't help the cycling cause.
    Is there such a thing as a good case of a cyclist involved in a collision?
    :?:
    I travel through a supermarket carpark everyday on the way to work and I reckon its one of the most dangerous locations to cycle. Cars reversing back and forwards, people pushing trolleys all over the place and kids running around - you really have to keep your wits about you. I hope she recovers ok. Not much information about what exactly happened.


    I agree with you about how dangerous car parks in general are to cycle in
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    Then read MY BLOG @ http://www.pebennett.com

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  • Wow, this thread is more interesting from the fact that most of you appear to never have been a pedestrian.
    Sicknote wrote:
    I both drive and ride :shock: :wink:

    Now and again, I walk places too.
  • bobpzerobobpzero Posts: 1,431
    so we should stop and wait
  • I do walk but there seem to be far to many peds that seem to think it is everyone else that should look out for them when they are crossing roads, as I have had far to many just walk out and not look before they do.

    I have had this more in the car than on the bike as am getting back to cycling and you hear the car as its diesel.
  • sirmysirmy Posts: 67
    spen666 wrote:
    sirmy wrote:
    I'd like to propose a new religion.

    We should all worship at the feet of the great all knowing Spen666 whose understanding of all things is beyond question, who sees with such clarity that we mere mortals can never hope to achieve his level of perfection and who has the gift of distant sight, so ably demonstrated on this thread.

    My main fear is that we are just not worthy of his greatness - WOE IS ME!, OH, WOE IS ME!

    Riding defensively and riding at a speed that is appropriate to the conditions is how everyone should be riding- its not rocket science

    Oh Spenny, Spenny, Spenny you totally missed the point there. That paot had nothing to do with your riding but your patronising and condescending attitude to everyone who posts on these forums. Seems your not good with (not very) subtext.

    If you really know the law try EXPLAINING why contributors have the wrong impression instead of just saying, in effect "Your wrong and thick, I'm right and brilliant". Then people might take you seriously.
  • sirmy wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    sirmy wrote:
    I'd like to propose a new religion.

    We should all worship at the feet of the great all knowing Spen666 whose understanding of all things is beyond question, who sees with such clarity that we mere mortals can never hope to achieve his level of perfection and who has the gift of distant sight, so ably demonstrated on this thread.

    My main fear is that we are just not worthy of his greatness - WOE IS ME!, OH, WOE IS ME!

    Riding defensively and riding at a speed that is appropriate to the conditions is how everyone should be riding- its not rocket science

    Oh Spenny, Spenny, Spenny you totally missed the point there. That paot had nothing to do with your riding but your patronising and condescending attitude to everyone who posts on these forums. Seems your not good with (not very) subtext.

    If you really know the law try EXPLAINING why contributors have the wrong impression instead of just saying, in effect "Your wrong and thick, I'm right and brilliant". Then people might take you seriously.

    Ok Spen666 is a bit brusque in they've just done exactly what you ask of them there.

    How many posts could we all find on here in 5 minutes bemoaning cars not looking out and anticipating our moves. Also a handful of dopey pedestrians aren't the norm any more than the RLJ's and pavement warriors are the norm for us.

    Every group of anything has a dickhead minority and for the rest of us not to take account of that fact is either negligent or makes us one of them.

    What was the original poster wearing? it's not mentioned. So he (or she throughout) may have been in neon flashing hi-viz and dayglo stripes or he may have been in dark clothes or coincidentally camouflaged in the same colour as the surrounds.

    SMIDSY walks as well as drives (and on occasion even rides a bike)

    How far from the kerb was OP riding? maybe tucked away nice an unobtrusive, bouncing over the grids and out of the average peds eye line of the main carriageway or maybe big and bold slap in the middle of it making himself as visible as possible to cars and walkers alike?

    How fast does he consider appropriate for a busy urban environment? 10, 20 , 30?

    How well is the bike maintained and set up to safely brake and steer round such short notice obstacles?

    he's obviously not anticipated or considered the surroundings and has come on here doing exactly what you've accused SPEN666 of doing - I'm right, don't argue, just agree and have taken their bat and ball home when perfectly legitimste questions have been raised (regardless of the style, the substance is right)
    the fact that there might be another side to the story and issues closer to home that need pointing out. 3 crashes in 2 months all in the same vein whats the one thing thats common to all of them - the OP. I ride thousands of miles a year in urban settings I've not had 3 pedestrian crashes in a decade.

    Those that don't learn from mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

    so to explain.

    It's a crossing, people do step out at crossings at all times usually on the basis of a quick listen and a sideways glance, because that's what crossings are there for and psychologically pedestrians feel crossings are safer and give them the right of way - they might not be right in law but its what happens in real life..
    Basic common sense says maybe slow up a bit and certainly move more centrally in the carriageway to give you more time and space to manoeuvre and the Pedestrian more time to see you and step back.

    similarly with parked vehicles, ride a couple of feet further from it! that way not only can you avoid the type of pedestrians who have no common sense but also the very real possibility of a door being flung open in your face by the driver - you're not only protecting the ped's but also yourself for absolutely no cost to your speed or route.

    though to be honest if this needs explaining to someone on a bike then god help us all.

    I'm not a lawyer looking to dissect the actual words people use, but neither am I prepared to automatically assume that just because I ride and love my biking that the biker is always 100% right.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,726
    Sorry shouldbeinbed, can you elaborate a little? :)
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Sounds like someone's got sand in his mangina !!
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • beverickbeverick Posts: 3,461
    I find myself being in the fairly unique position of being almost entirely in agreement with Spen. OK, he puts things across in a manner that verges on hostile but, in my book, any cyclist who rides into a pedestrian who is likely to be walking at an absolute maximum of 4mph most likely deserves all they get.

    As most peds are big and ugly enough to spot several from hundred yards distance you should be able to determine the correct speed and path to take to avoid sharing the same road-space with them. Under any circumstances you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear and this inlcudes predicting where and when other road users will enter into otherwise clear space.

    In the unlikley event that a cyclist hits someone on a cycle lane who "walks infront without looking" they were most likely riding carelessly or inconsiderately if only by not giving an audiable warning.

    Also, and in my experience, people tend to be much taller than the average car and are relatively easy to spot walking round them. In the unlikely event that the car is higher than the ped their footfall can still invariably be seen under the vehicle. Pedestrians tend not to be invisbile.

    That said, I can appreciate that there may well be circumstances where sight-lines are so poor that it is not possible to see a pedstrian first approach a vehicle or walk round it into the road. However, under these circumstances I'd say that a competent cyclist wouldn't be passing so close, or at such speed, as to come into conflct with someone that they couldn't see but could otherwise reasonably predict would appear. nb, in these circumstances my comment above regarding audible warning also applies.

    Finally, any cyclist who suffers what sounds to be virtually the same crash on three occasions, ie has run into a slow moving road user crossing their path, clearly has a problem with managing the space around them and their speed and really needs to consider their riding style.

    Bob
  • mfin wrote:
    Sorry shouldbeinbed, can you elaborate a little? :)

    :oops: :oops: :oops: oh dear, even I don't understand half of it
  • sirmysirmy Posts: 67
    To go off on a bit of a tangent, have you noticed how many people ride as if they were pedestrians. This is most notable with commuters, old ladies on safety bicycles and chavy types on clapped out BSOs with no brakes.

    Watch pedestrians at a light controlled crossing. They will cross if there are no vehicles nearby and if vehicles are stationary on the crossing regardless of what the lights say. Pedestrians will walk out into roads without looking, change direction suddenly and be generally oblivious of anything around them. So it is with so many people sat astride a bike who don't appear to be able to switch their mindset from pedestrian to road user.

    I would say that a lot of footway cycling is probably done due to fear of becoming road pizza - I recently saw one person riding down a road turn onto the footway when a bus approached form behind (I was on the bus and it had pulled out and was giving him plenty of room - unusual I know but it does happen occasionally). But have you ever enquired if adult cycle training is available where you live? Unless you're in a demonstration town it's unlikely to be available. Perhaps taking a course should be made a requirement for anyone using the bike2work schemes and maybe something cycle england/scotland/wales etc should be more vocal in demanding funding for.
  • snailracersnailracer Posts: 968
    IMO it is unrealistic to expect pedestrians to be competent road users.

    If competence was a requirement, we wouldn't allow children, the senile, clumsy, retarded, etc. outside.
  • Spinner28Spinner28 Posts: 58
    I nearly sent a ped flying the other day.

    Riding down a main road in the traffic flow behind a Land Rover Discovery, I/the traffic flow was going at around 28mph(30-limit). The Land Rover starts to slow down and puts his right indicator on, so I scoot round to the inside of him(into the portion of road where there is actually a cycle lane) to pass him whilst leaving him to turn right. What I hadn't realised as I couldn't see round the Discovery was that although he WAS intending to turn right, before he planned to execute that move he decided to let a woman cross who was standing on a traffic island. She scooted across in front of the Land Rover stepping out of round the nearside of the vehicle just as I came flying though at must've been at least 25-mph?! I didn't have time to react, I must've really made her jump as she screamed out in complete shock & surprise before I just(and it was just )brushed her with my elbow. She jumped and fell back against the Land Rover. When I looked back she was sort of sat slumped aganst the front bumper of the vehicle!!!! That'll teach her to always check the cycle lane when crossing the road in future! Phew
    The best sheep are in N.Yorks
  • spen666spen666 Posts: 17,709
    Spinner28 wrote:
    I nearly sent a ped flying the other day.

    Riding down a main road in the traffic flow behind a Land Rover Discovery, I/the traffic flow was going at around 28mph(30-limit). The Land Rover starts to slow down and puts his right indicator on, so I scoot round to the inside of him(into the portion of road where there is actually a cycle lane) to pass him whilst leaving him to turn right. What I hadn't realised as I couldn't see round the Discovery was that although he WAS intending to turn right, before he planned to execute that move he decided to let a woman cross who was standing on a traffic island. She scooted across in front of the Land Rover stepping out of round the nearside of the vehicle just as I came flying though at must've been at least 25-mph?! I didn't have time to react, I must've really made her jump as she screamed out in complete shock & surprise before I just(and it was just )brushed her with my elbow. She jumped and fell back against the Land Rover. When I looked back she was sort of sat slumped aganst the front bumper of the vehicle!!!! That'll teach her to always check the cycle lane when crossing the road in future! Phew


    I seem to have missed the part where you acknowledge you were riding far too fast for the conditions.

    Riding nearly 30mph when you can't see ahead of the Discovery is not appropriate speed for the conditions.

    What you have done is riden without due consideration of other road users. You have managed to cause yet another person to have reason to dislike cyclists.

    That is not to say the pedestrian did no wrong
    Want to know the Spen666 behind the posts?
    Then read MY BLOG @ http://www.pebennett.com

    Twittering @spen_666
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,599
    Spinner28 wrote:
    I nearly sent a ped flying the other day.

    Riding down a main road in the traffic flow behind a Land Rover Discovery, I/the traffic flow was going at around 28mph(30-limit). The Land Rover starts to slow down and puts his right indicator on, so I scoot round to the inside of him(into the portion of road where there is actually a cycle lane) to pass him whilst leaving him to turn right. What I hadn't realised as I couldn't see round the Discovery was that although he WAS intending to turn right, before he planned to execute that move he decided to let a woman cross who was standing on a traffic island. She scooted across in front of the Land Rover stepping out of round the nearside of the vehicle just as I came flying though at must've been at least 25-mph?! I didn't have time to react, I must've really made her jump as she screamed out in complete shock & surprise before I just(and it was just )brushed her with my elbow. She jumped and fell back against the Land Rover. When I looked back she was sort of sat slumped aganst the front bumper of the vehicle!!!! That'll teach her to always check the cycle lane when crossing the road in future! Phew

    So you undertook a vehicle, that was slowing down to let a pedestrian across the road, without being able to see where you were going?
    And one day when you grow up they'll probably let you drive a car, hope you've got a bit more sense by then.
    Unless of course you decide to argue with an HGV instead of a pedestrian, which will likely remove your genes from the pool.
    I don't do smileys.

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  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,660
    Spinner28 wrote:
    I nearly sent a ped flying the other day.

    Riding down a main road in the traffic flow behind a Land Rover Discovery, I/the traffic flow was going at around 28mph(30-limit). The Land Rover starts to slow down and puts his right indicator on, so I scoot round to the inside of him(into the portion of road where there is actually a cycle lane) to pass him whilst leaving him to turn right. What I hadn't realised as I couldn't see round the Discovery was that although he WAS intending to turn right, before he planned to execute that move he decided to let a woman cross who was standing on a traffic island. She scooted across in front of the Land Rover stepping out of round the nearside of the vehicle just as I came flying though at must've been at least 25-mph?! I didn't have time to react, I must've really made her jump as she screamed out in complete shock & surprise before I just(and it was just )brushed her with my elbow. She jumped and fell back against the Land Rover. When I looked back she was sort of sat slumped aganst the front bumper of the vehicle!!!! That'll teach her to always check the cycle lane when crossing the road in future! Phew


    you did of course stop and go to see if she was alright as an act of basic common courtesy didn't you, given that

    a) you hit her

    b) you hit her at speed and with a hard sharp bit of your body

    c) she scramed in surprise or pain - either of which could have made her collapse

    d) she was in a collapsed state when you looked

    e) she has every right to assume that if she's been waved across by the landrover it is safe for her to cross (ok The landrover shouldn't be making decisions on your behalf, but thats not the ladys fault)

    f) you took no consideration of the fact that there could be something in front of the landrover on the road any more than she took consideration of a whizzing cyclist behind it you're at best 50:50 on this.


    Your last comment shows you in an exceptionally poor light, if a motorist had been quoted saying similar about cyclists, it would have generated pages of bile on here.


    If you hope she's learned a lesson, what have you learned?
  • carefulcareful Posts: 720
    Pedestrians are just people who are not on their bikes or in their cars at the time. Most people are numpties; ie they do stupid things. Pedestrians tend to 'look' with their ears. They step out without actually looking, they may not be alert and even if they do look, they are programmed to look for cars not bikes. Most cyclists do the same. Accept that it is human failure and will probably never change. Unless you expect it and make allowances as far as possible it will keep happening to you. Complaining about it is as pointless as giving the two finger salute to a motorist who came to close. It wont change anything.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,599
    careful wrote:
    Pedestrians are just people who are not on their bikes or in their cars at the time. Most people are numpties; ie they do stupid things. Pedestrians tend to 'look' with their ears. They step out without actually looking, they may not be alert and even if they do look, they are programmed to look for cars not bikes. Most cyclists do the same. Accept that it is human failure and will probably never change. Unless you expect it and make allowances as far as possible it will keep happening to you. Complaining about it is as pointless as giving the two finger salute to a motorist who came to close. It wont change anything.

    I generally only use one finger - pointless it may be, but it can be satisfying.
    I don't do smileys.

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  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    You should hear what they say about cyclists on www.pedestrianradar.com!
  • Thick TesterThick Tester Posts: 380
    This reads like Katy Perrys 'I crashed a bike and I liked it'

    Barring Spen, you lot need to clean your rims and question your choice of brakepads..I refuse to believe that most of you crashers have had a collective nouse bypass to avoid riding wide enough out from the pavement in any of these cases and avoid all of these so called incidents.

    To quote HM's ere book....( Titled the Road Traffic act 1991 )

    28 Dangerous cycling

    (1) A person who rides a cycle on a road dangerously is guilty of an offence.

    (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above a person is to be regarded as riding dangerously if (and only if)

    (a) the way he rides falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful cyclist, and

    (b) it would be obvious to a competent and careful cyclist that riding in that way would be dangerous.

    (3) In subsection (2) above "dangerous" refers to danger either of injury to any person or of serious damage to property; and in determining for the purposes of that subsection what would be obvious to a competent and careful cyclist in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.

    And thats just the 1991 revision of the RTA.... Read up you lot as i'll be running a test on this at a later date.

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1991/pl ... 1-pb5-l1g7

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1960/pd ... 016_en.pdf
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    Oh dear. Someone so bored they have to create a troll BR account?
  • Thick TesterThick Tester Posts: 380
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Oh dear. Someone so bored they have to create a troll BR account?

    Wrong again..
  • unclemalcunclemalc Posts: 563
    Its clear that the initial poster felt that having suffered personal and mechanical damage after hitting pedestrians then the latter were at fault.
    Having ridden since I was a kid and am now in my 50s, and walk cycle and use a car, my own experiences of such things is that people just don't think...
    There are too many distractions (phones, mp3s, showing off to the friends etc), there isn't enough road-craft (looking in all directions, being able to estimate speeds of vehicles AND bikes); or just plain common sense.
    Some pedestrians are just idiots:
    i) I go past a guy standing on the side of the road who was just about to step off the pavement and as I go past he says "Going a bit fast aren't you...?" :shock:
    ii) I'm heading towards a mother and 3 kids crossing the road 50m in front of me. I saw them long before they saw me but she was on the phone and the kids had no idea. I slowed expecting them to let me go by (I was to all effects an approaching vehicle...) but no: she looked right at me and let her kids go. I managed to go between all of them (relatively slowly by now) but she then berates the kids for getting in my way... :shock: :shock:
    iii) I'm slowly climbing towards a junction near my house. At the corner is a day nursery and parents unload their offspring at speed on the corner. This morning a father is pulling his child out of its mother's arms to get the kid into the nursery, obviously under protest. He pulls the kid out of the car and immediately turns into the road and takes a step forward. He just manages to stop going any further as I scream "No " at him. If I had been a m/bike (or hadn't seen him) there would have been hell to pay. :cry:

    Where I live you HAVE to ride 'defensively' - at a speed that suits you BUT taking into consideration the numbing inevitability of other peoples' stupidity, arrogance or ignorance.
    Do it for your own safety if for no other reason.
    Assume there is potential for a problem all the time - at least you can give yourself a second to react. :wink:
    Spring!
    Singlespeeds in town rule.
  • You have to remember, pedestrians use their ears more than their eyes - if they don't hear you, they don't really 'see' you.

    I'm seriously (yes, seriously) thinking of putting bells on my road bikes... those cool Japanese brass jobbies of course.

    As it is, I always shout ahead if I think a pedestrian is about to ignore me - or to let horse riders know I'm coming.
    I'm at that difficult age... somewhere between birth and death.
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