'Too many' young offenders jailed?

zedders

'Too many' young offenders jailed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8198496.stm

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this story? They say Prisons don’t work for young people?

It’s a horrible thing to say but many young offenders are beyond help. They just have no chance of sorting themselves out in the crazy world they live. I’ve seen many teenagers who have been kicked out of home, or been victims of domestic abuse. Parents on drugs, drink or who just don’t give a shite about them. Social depravity, lack of education and alike just leave many youngsters bitter, angry and twisted (violent).
It’s not nice to lock a youth up, but I’d rather they be jailed (without getting out early or on tag), instead of running a mockery on the streets, stealing cars, breaking in houses, drug dealing and robbing people. Any teenager knows the difference between right and wrong!

Speaking to a family member who is a Senior Officer within the Prison service they agree with me that by the time many young offenders get to prison they are too far gone. As they put it starts with parenting and education!

Anonymous

There was a similar thread a while back, the upshot was that there is a generation of parents who have done cack parenting and now we have a generation of teens with massive problems.

Anonymous

dmclite wrote:

There was a similar thread a while back, the upshot was that there is a generation of parents who have done cack parenting and now we have a generation of teens with massive problems.

The problem is, they are the ones breeding like rabbits too.

softlad

NapoleonD wrote:

The problem is, they are the ones breeding like rabbits too.

Arm the police and permit them to administer summary justice. On second thoughts, maybe that's not such a good idea.....

Frank the tank

NapoleonD wrote:

dmclite wrote:

There was a similar thread a while back, the upshot was that there is a generation of parents who have done cack parenting and now we have a generation of teens with massive problems.

The problem is, they are the ones breeding like rabbits too.

IMHO both of these points are valid.

Dicipline and decent values are things that should be instilled by parents, but, when the parents are either deficient or absent what chance have the children got. A lot are going off the rails before they're ten. Unfortunately the rot has set in and there will be no "quick fix" unless you go down the road of extermination camps. Somehow I don't see that happening.

markos1963

I read someware that a childs personality traits are formed by the age of 2. Once past that point it becomes increasingly difficult to rectify problems. So , when you see that screaming brat on the floor of the supermarket with its chavy parent ignoring it or not caring or saying ' I can't do anything with him/her' you know what to expect in 10 years time. I believe many parents are afraid to say no to children nowerdays, I don't know why, guilt maybe?

jordan_217

IMO - The little sh**s in question are those that grew up when parents stopped smacking kids because (A) they were scared of being arrested or (B) they just couldn't be ar**ed.

Not long ago, I told an 8-10 year old to put the sweet wrapper, which she had dropped, in the bin (the bin being 2-3 metres away). "F*** off!" was the response. I wouldn't of dared say that to my mates at that age, never mind to an adult. People are quick to say that illegal immigrants et al are ruining this country. I think we need to look a little closer to home and at the white trash chav scrotes who deserve a good backhander. :evil:

Gavin Gilbert

NapoleonD wrote:

dmclite wrote:

There was a similar thread a while back, the upshot was that there is a generation of parents who have done cack parenting and now we have a generation of teens with massive problems.

The problem is, they are the ones breeding like rabbits too.

Then the obvious solution is to lop their bollocks off for a first offence.

Frank the tank

If it's sterilisation you're recomending Gavin, may I suggest four minutes in a vat of boiling water. That sterilisers most things.

Gavin Gilbert

Frank the tank wrote:

If it's sterilisation you're recomending Gavin, may I suggest four minutes in a vat of boiling water. That sterilisers most things.

I was thinking more in terms of what the vet does to kitty. We could make a string of them and hang them up over the school gate as a deterent.

Anonymous

Look at the baby P fiasco, you wouldn't trust those people to look after a carrot, let alone a child.

chriskempton

I blame video games

Anonymous

chriskempton wrote:

I blame video games

And Grange Hill.

spen666

dmclite wrote:

Look at the baby P fiasco, you wouldn't trust those people to look after a carrot, let alone a child.

There are some decent social workers

Anonymous

NapoleonD wrote:

chriskempton wrote:

I blame video games

And Grange Hill.

Tracy Beaker.

teagar

zedders wrote:

'Too many' young offenders jailed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8198496.stm

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this story? They say Prisons don’t work for young people?

It’s a horrible thing to say but many young offenders are beyond help. They just have no chance of sorting themselves out in the crazy world they live. I’ve seen many teenagers who have been kicked out of home, or been victims of domestic abuse. Parents on drugs, drink or who just don’t give a shite about them. Social depravity, lack of education and alike just leave many youngsters bitter, angry and twisted (violent).
It’s not nice to lock a youth up, but I’d rather they be jailed (without getting out early or on tag), instead of running a mockery on the streets, stealing cars, breaking in houses, drug dealing and robbing people. Any teenager knows the difference between right and wrong!

Speaking to a family member who is a Senior Officer within the Prison service they agree with me that by the time many young offenders get to prison they are too far gone. As they put it starts with parenting and education!

So you think the solution for these children/young adults who are abused and clearly suffer mental and behavioural problems as a result should be punished by society and put into jail?



The problem is not poor parenting - that is a symptom, which goes on to cause more problems. The problem is there is a sort of underclass of people who are in a spiral of poverty, and social problems, which the average voter is only happy to ignore on the basis that they are "beyond help" or "can't tell right from wrong". Those parents who are so often slated as just bad or horrible or evil people, often cannot even cope with themselves and their own problems, let alone their children, which is why they parent in the way they do. They are not by nature bad people.

These young adults and children who are disturbed and terrorise neighbourhoods are, unfortunately, those who need help the most. Their unacceptable social behaviour is a symptom of a society that cannot look after those who cannot look after themselves - not a cause of social ills.

gkerr4

markos1963 wrote:

I read someware that a childs personality traits are formed by the age of 2. Once past that point it becomes increasingly difficult to rectify problems. So , when you see that screaming brat on the floor of the supermarket with its chavy parent ignoring it or not caring or saying ' I can't do anything with him/her' you know what to expect in 10 years time. I believe many parents are afraid to say no to children nowerdays, I don't know why, guilt maybe?

sorry this is a bit off topic - but ALL two year olds have temper tantrums - generally speaking they grow out of it.

This is their first taste of questioning authority and a tantrum is seen by the child as having a high chance of getting what he / she 'wants' - they grow out of this. Incidentally, the parents you see ignoring the tantrums are doing well as by giving in to the tantrums for a quick bit of peace means that the child (they're smarter than you think) knows they can wheel out the ole' tantrum trick every time.

MattC59

NapoleonD wrote:

chriskempton wrote:

I blame video games

And Grange Hill.

The number of sausages stolen from plates has increased massively since the airing of that show !!
It's true, check the stats !!

M

MattC59

oh yeah.......

I was mugged (or attempted to be mugged) by a bunch of 14 year old girls (oh the shame !!) a few months back. they threatened to stab me in the face with a screwdriver.

I found that offering them CONSIDERABLE amounts of violence worked well, they backed off. The ring leader got 9months personally, I think that the spiteful, nasty, chavy little b*tch should be removed from society.

I know that's not always the best solution, but f*ck 'em, I don't want people like that even breathing the same air as me. Which ever way you look at it, everyone has a fundamental knowledge of what is right or wrong. It's a simple matter of choice and they shuold accept the consequences of their actions (with dignity )

M

pedylan

spen666 wrote:

dmclite wrote:

Look at the baby P fiasco, you wouldn't trust those people to look after a carrot, let alone a child.

There are some decent social workers

I took the comment to mean that here are parents who couldn't look after a carrot.

A colleague has recently adopted a child. He and his wife were subject to close scrutiny of their home life, relationship, habits, income and all kinds of intrusive interviews with social services. This seems to suggest that had either of them been deemed to be unstable, the relationship shaky, or had a criminal record for example that they wouldn't have been allowed to adopt because of risk to the child.

Now, how many parents of children who are abused can comply with what my colleague was expected to attain? There are some terrible parents who place children in extremely dangerous and sometimes fatal situations because of their selfishness, stupidity, laziness, criminality or the bad choices they make.

passout

I take a practical view on this - whatever works best (within the realms of the law). If making them clean up canals works better, and is cheaper than prison, then I'm all for it. I really think they need to research this carefully though (i.e. pay for some decent long term research on it) before acting. Too many of these decisions are made by politicians to appease voters/tax payers, rather than doing what actually works best. I suspect that's why we have so many kids in jail in the first place compared to other European countries whose teenagers are no better than ours.

CyclingBantam

dmclite wrote:

Look at the baby P fiasco, you wouldn't trust those people to look after a carrot, let alone a child.

Sorry I know this is a serious thread but that like has just cracked me up. Classic.

Anonymous

teagar wrote:

zedders wrote:

'Too many' young offenders jailed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8198496.stm

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this story? They say Prisons don’t work for young people?

It’s a horrible thing to say but many young offenders are beyond help. They just have no chance of sorting themselves out in the crazy world they live. I’ve seen many teenagers who have been kicked out of home, or been victims of domestic abuse. Parents on drugs, drink or who just don’t give a shite about them. Social depravity, lack of education and alike just leave many youngsters bitter, angry and twisted (violent).
It’s not nice to lock a youth up, but I’d rather they be jailed (without getting out early or on tag), instead of running a mockery on the streets, stealing cars, breaking in houses, drug dealing and robbing people. Any teenager knows the difference between right and wrong!

Speaking to a family member who is a Senior Officer within the Prison service they agree with me that by the time many young offenders get to prison they are too far gone. As they put it starts with parenting and education!

So you think the solution for these children/young adults who are abused and clearly suffer mental and behavioural problems as a result should be punished by society and put into jail?



The problem is not poor parenting - that is a symptom, which goes on to cause more problems. The problem is there is a sort of underclass of people who are in a spiral of poverty, and social problems, which the average voter is only happy to ignore on the basis that they are "beyond help" or "can't tell right from wrong". Those parents who are so often slated as just bad or horrible or evil people, often cannot even cope with themselves and their own problems, let alone their children, which is why they parent in the way they do. They are not by nature bad people.

These young adults and children who are disturbed and terrorise neighbourhoods are, unfortunately, those who need help the most. Their unacceptable social behaviour is a symptom of a society that cannot look after those who cannot look after themselves - not a cause of social ills.[/quote

I agree to a point, but there are people out there who do know right from wrong but continue to knock out children at pace and feel absolutely no obligation to bringing their children up properly. They are on a spiral of their own doing, not society, you have to take responsibility for yourself sometime and make your own luck.
It is far too easy to be a total waster today in the UK and get handouts on a plate.

teagar

dmclite wrote:

teagar wrote:

zedders wrote:

'Too many' young offenders jailed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8198496.stm

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this story? They say Prisons don’t work for young people?

It’s a horrible thing to say but many young offenders are beyond help. They just have no chance of sorting themselves out in the crazy world they live. I’ve seen many teenagers who have been kicked out of home, or been victims of domestic abuse. Parents on drugs, drink or who just don’t give a shite about them. Social depravity, lack of education and alike just leave many youngsters bitter, angry and twisted (violent).
It’s not nice to lock a youth up, but I’d rather they be jailed (without getting out early or on tag), instead of running a mockery on the streets, stealing cars, breaking in houses, drug dealing and robbing people. Any teenager knows the difference between right and wrong!

Speaking to a family member who is a Senior Officer within the Prison service they agree with me that by the time many young offenders get to prison they are too far gone. As they put it starts with parenting and education!

So you think the solution for these children/young adults who are abused and clearly suffer mental and behavioural problems as a result should be punished by society and put into jail?



The problem is not poor parenting - that is a symptom, which goes on to cause more problems. The problem is there is a sort of underclass of people who are in a spiral of poverty, and social problems, which the average voter is only happy to ignore on the basis that they are "beyond help" or "can't tell right from wrong". Those parents who are so often slated as just bad or horrible or evil people, often cannot even cope with themselves and their own problems, let alone their children, which is why they parent in the way they do. They are not by nature bad people.

These young adults and children who are disturbed and terrorise neighbourhoods are, unfortunately, those who need help the most. Their unacceptable social behaviour is a symptom of a society that cannot look after those who cannot look after themselves - not a cause of social ills.

I agree to a point, but there are people out there who do know right from wrong but continue to knock out children at pace and feel absolutely no obligation to bringing their children up properly. They are on a spiral of their own doing, not society, you have to take responsibility for yourself sometime and make your own luck.
It is far too easy to be a total waster today in the UK and get handouts on a plate.

It's not that they feel no obligation to bring children up properly. It's a mental and social inability to do so.

People arn't by their very nature unable to understand their right from wrong. It is the environment in which they live which creates that. it is very easy to suggest such answers like "they don't know right from wrong" when you live in a world where you were brought up and taught to live and think in a way which leads you to live a largely happy and socially acceptable. If all you have come across rather than care is abuse, it is totally not surprising that their behaviour is unacceptable.

I think anybody who suggests that living the way most of these families live is easy, and just get given things "on a plate" don't quite understand the sheer anguish filled a troubled lives they lead. No-one wants to live the way they do, certainly not them.

To suggest that the spiral is entirely of their own doing, is something that actually quite upsets me. It is not surprising that those people who "spiral" out of control often have serious mental problems, behavourial problems, which mean they cannot look after themselves. They are by no means self inflicted - why would anyone want to live like that?

You should go live with these people you criticise so much. You'll understand their world is a very dark, horrible place to be, and they know it. That these youths you read and hear about engage in terrible activities to keep themselves entertained, like terrorising neighbourhoods etc, just highlights how bad the rest of their days must be.

It saddens me that people cannot see the horrible behaviour as a symptom of troubled dark lives. I wish people who live comfortable lives, rather than gloat in their own success by suggesting that those who live in these underclass ghettos are there "of their own doing", take one for the team, make a little sacrifice to help those who genuinely need it. I know I don't need any social help or care - i can manage by myself fine. These people clearly can't.

Anti-social behaviour is the ultimate sign that society has failed these people. It should be up to those who are not anti-social to create the conditions that reduce that behaviour by removing the deep rooted causes, rather than just hiding it under the carpet and putting it in prisons.

zedders

teagar wrote:

zedders wrote:

'Too many' young offenders jailed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8198496.stm

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this story? They say Prisons don’t work for young people?

It’s a horrible thing to say but many young offenders are beyond help. They just have no chance of sorting themselves out in the crazy world they live. I’ve seen many teenagers who have been kicked out of home, or been victims of domestic abuse. Parents on drugs, drink or who just don’t give a shite about them. Social depravity, lack of education and alike just leave many youngsters bitter, angry and twisted (violent).
It’s not nice to lock a youth up, but I’d rather they be jailed (without getting out early or on tag), instead of running a mockery on the streets, stealing cars, breaking in houses, drug dealing and robbing people. Any teenager knows the difference between right and wrong!

Speaking to a family member who is a Senior Officer within the Prison service they agree with me that by the time many young offenders get to prison they are too far gone. As they put it starts with parenting and education!

So you think the solution for these children/young adults who are abused and clearly suffer mental and behavioural problems as a result should be punished by society and put into jail?



The problem is not poor parenting - that is a symptom, which goes on to cause more problems. The problem is there is a sort of underclass of people who are in a spiral of poverty, and social problems, which the average voter is only happy to ignore on the basis that they are "beyond help" or "can't tell right from wrong". Those parents who are so often slated as just bad or horrible or evil people, often cannot even cope with themselves and their own problems, let alone their children, which is why they parent in the way they do. They are not by nature bad people.

These young adults and children who are disturbed and terrorise neighbourhoods are, unfortunately, those who need help the most. Their unacceptable social behaviour is a symptom of a society that cannot look after those who cannot look after themselves - not a cause of social ills.

teagar:
Unfortunately one of the problems is bad parenting, and it is not a symptom. And most of the ones that end up in jail ARE beyond help. I’m not looking to ignore these youths but you have to face facts. If some mugged you, assaulted you, stole from you etc – would you want them to be punished? Or would you want some social worker to pat them on the back and say don’t worry about it, it’s not your fault? It’s society fault to a degree I suppose, but you make your bed, and you lie in it as far as I’m concerned? Youths are so switched on nowadays and they have to take responsibilities for their own actions?
Where I work, just the other week an 18 and 14 yr old were found guilty of murder and manslaughter. They attacked a drunk walking home and hit him on the head with a brick to rob him of a few quid! Previous to this they had been charged with numerous offences and attempts to get the older one a custodial sentence had recently failed! At the time probation and alike were trying to work with them, but they just didn’t give to hoots.
Youths don’t get sent to jail straight up, they have been in the system for a long time. Most have formal warnings, reprimands, and Cautions even before going to court. Then when they do get to court they will be given, supervision orders, community punishment orders, rehabilitation orders and alike. They get given ‘think first’ programmes (Classic). They get offered assistance from social services, and Probation, get taken on trips and even get free gym membership ! Jail is a last resort. But the problem is half can’t be bothered to take the help when it’s put on a plate for them! They really don’t care.
So is to put them in jail the solution? In the long term probably not. But unfortunately the way things stand - YES IT IS. I agree it doesn’t help them, but again they have training and education programmes in jail, and if they want to try and change their ways there is some assistance inside jail for them. But the reason most don’t change and try to stop re-offending is most can’t be bothered to get the help that’s there for them, and are more concerned about what their mates, Co-D, or brothers will think.
Take knife crime for example? What will stop a 15 yr old carrying? The threat of a supervision order? Or 5 yrs minimum inside? And if they won’t try to change there behaviours or get help, then I’d rather they be locked away instead of being out on the street, with the chance of you or me being there next victim!

teagar

zedders wrote:

teagar wrote:

zedders wrote:

'Too many' young offenders jailed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8198496.stm

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this story? They say Prisons don’t work for young people?

It’s a horrible thing to say but many young offenders are beyond help. They just have no chance of sorting themselves out in the crazy world they live. I’ve seen many teenagers who have been kicked out of home, or been victims of domestic abuse. Parents on drugs, drink or who just don’t give a shite about them. Social depravity, lack of education and alike just leave many youngsters bitter, angry and twisted (violent).
It’s not nice to lock a youth up, but I’d rather they be jailed (without getting out early or on tag), instead of running a mockery on the streets, stealing cars, breaking in houses, drug dealing and robbing people. Any teenager knows the difference between right and wrong!

Speaking to a family member who is a Senior Officer within the Prison service they agree with me that by the time many young offenders get to prison they are too far gone. As they put it starts with parenting and education!

So you think the solution for these children/young adults who are abused and clearly suffer mental and behavioural problems as a result should be punished by society and put into jail?



The problem is not poor parenting - that is a symptom, which goes on to cause more problems. The problem is there is a sort of underclass of people who are in a spiral of poverty, and social problems, which the average voter is only happy to ignore on the basis that they are "beyond help" or "can't tell right from wrong". Those parents who are so often slated as just bad or horrible or evil people, often cannot even cope with themselves and their own problems, let alone their children, which is why they parent in the way they do. They are not by nature bad people.

These young adults and children who are disturbed and terrorise neighbourhoods are, unfortunately, those who need help the most. Their unacceptable social behaviour is a symptom of a society that cannot look after those who cannot look after themselves - not a cause of social ills.

teagar:
Unfortunately one of the problems is bad parenting, and it is not a symptom. And most of the ones that end up in jail ARE beyond help. I’m not looking to ignore these youths but you have to face facts. If some mugged you, assaulted you, stole from you etc – would you want them to be punished? Or would you want some social worker to pat them on the back and say don’t worry about it, it’s not your fault? It’s society fault to a degree I suppose, but you make your bed, and you lie in it as far as I’m concerned? Youths are so switched on nowadays and they have to take responsibilities for their own actions?
Where I work, just the other week an 18 and 14 yr old were found guilty of murder and manslaughter. They attacked a drunk walking home and hit him on the head with a brick to rob him of a few quid! Previous to this they had been charged with numerous offences and attempts to get the older one a custodial sentence had recently failed! At the time probation and alike were trying to work with them, but they just didn’t give to hoots.
Youths don’t get sent to jail straight up, they have been in the system for a long time. Most have formal warnings, reprimands, and Cautions even before going to court. Then when they do get to court they will be given, supervision order, community punishment orders, rehabilitation orders and alike. They get given ‘think first’ programmes (Classic). They get offered assistance from social services, and Probation, get taken on trips and even get free gym membership ! Jail is a last resort. But the problem is half can’t be bothered to take the help when it’s put on a plate for them! They really don’t care.
So is to put them in jail the solution? In the long term probably not. But unfortunately the way things stand - YES IT IS. I agree it doesn’t help them, but again they have training and education programmes in jail, and if they want to try and change their ways there is some assistance inside jail for them. But the reason most don’t change and try to stop re-offending is most can’t be bothered to get the help that’s there for them, and are more concerned about what their mates, Co-D, or brothers will think.
ake knife crime for example? What will stop a 15 yr old carrying? The threat of a supervision order? Or 5 yrs minimum inside? And if they won’t try to change there behaviours or get help, then I’d rather they be locked away instead of being out on the street, with the chance of you or me being there next victim!

Hang on. I'm not suggesting for a minute that crimes such as assault, theft etc should not be punished.

I'm pretty sure I never said such a thing!

I spent most of my time at secondary school bruised and beaten up, ended up at the doctors a few times after the beatings I got, and they are exactly the kids you're talking about - they're now on a variety of punishments and schemes, hopping in and out of prison and recieving ASBOS etc.

When you say parenting is the problem. What do you think causes this parenting? Do you think people are just deliberately bad and horrible? You don't think they don't want to lead a normal life? This notion that they "can't be bothered", is also such a big misconception, that it almost upsets me. People do NOT enjoy a life of crime. It is not a question of being "bothered". These people are disturbed and suffer in their lives. Crime is a last resort for anyone.

It sounds like you have no interest in addressing the cause of these problems. It seems your only interest is to make sure you never have to come across it, by locking them away.

skyd0g

"Too many young offenders jailed?"

Yes.

Not enough of them are executed.

passout

I was executed as a lad...never did me any harm.

teagar

skyd0g wrote:

"Too many young offenders jailed?"

Yes.

Not enough of them are executed.

Let's hope none of your children end up in jail.


Heard a story from a nearby village. Vicar's son, has serious anger issues in that he cannot control himself when he gets really angry. Kicks off about seemingly mundane things. Very respectable family, his siblings are all high achievers etc.

He recently lost control of his temper and assaulted someone who I think either suffered severe injuries or died ( I can't remember, I heard the story from a friend who's father is this vicar's boss). Now, clearly the person assaulted is a victim. By no stretch of the imagination should this guy be let off, just because he has a propensity to this. But isn't this angry guy who assaulted him to? That he is victim of a mental state that would allow him to get into such a frenzied state that he assaulted someone?

Sure he'll end up in jail, and be punished, probably quite rightly. But he is also a victim, just one who needs to be punished.

Anonymous

I wish I had your understanding teagar. Ive done aid work in W Africa for 5 months and that is poverty, disease and everything that entails. I just can't equate it with living in a civilised developed country and seemingly throwing it all away when everything here is for the taking if you put enough effort in.

teagar

dmclite wrote:

I wish I had your understanding teagar. Ive done aid work in W Africa for 5 months and that is poverty, disease and everything that entails. I just can't equate it with living in a civilised developed country and seemingly throwing it all away when everything here is for the taking if you put enough effort in.

Ignoring the imperialist "civilised/uncivilised" notion for a second....

I just can't equate it with living in a civilised developed country and seemingly throwing it all away when everything here is for the taking if you put enough effort in

It's not a question of "throwing it away", or putting in the effort. These people are not "lazy". Their life is not "easy". It is very hard. They have issues and problems which prevent them from living and behaving in a socially acceptable manner.

Presumably you're not close to anybody who has been homeless for long stretches?