Is there anyone on here who genuinely thinks Wiggins doped?

Ramanujan
Ramanujan Posts: 352
edited August 2009 in Pro race
If it were nearly any other rider, that had a similar record of not being able to climb, suddenly loses a few kilos and then bang!...gets 4th in the TDF, wouldn't everyone be questioning that result?

I'm wondering if there are any people who think that Wiggins doped. After all, Armstrongs re-emergence as a TDF rider happened after he alledgedly kept is power but lost a fair bit of weight after cancer.
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Comments

  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    There are differences between the two cases though. Figures released by people like Edward Coyle show that Armstrong's post cancer Tour weight was actually within a kilo or so of his weight when he won the world RR championships. On the other hand Wiggins clearly has lost a lot of weight. Whether his previous body fat level really was over 12%, as the figures he gave suggest, is another matter. (This has already been discussed on here).
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    Ramanujan wrote:
    If it were nearly any other rider, that had a similar record of not being able to climb, suddenly loses a few kilos and then bang!...gets 4th in the TDF, wouldn't everyone be questioning that result?

    I'm wondering if there are any people who think that Wiggins doped. After all, Armstrongs re-emergence as a TDF rider happened after he alledgedly kept is power but lost a fair bit of weight after cancer.



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  • butcher_boy
    butcher_boy Posts: 117
    This is the saddest part of this great sport, every good ride is plagued by doping questions.

    Yes, we have all been let down time & time again but is it not about time we believed in the power of sport until proved otherwise. Even average club riders can see great improvements in their performance if they put in the effort. just imagine the changes you could make if it was your proffesion.

    This isn't a pro Bradley or pro Lance debate, simply that if we are as fans are constantly giving a nod & wink to these allegations then what do we expect the non-cycling community to do?

    I think we all want this sport to get better treatment by the mainstream press in the UK, but why will they if even it's supporters think everybody dopes :(
  • ellieb
    ellieb Posts: 436
    I don't think Wiggins doped. But in general I am cynical about 'believing in the power of sport.' There comes a point where positive thinking becomes gullible naivity & I'm afraid that for pro cycling fans that happened a long time ago.
  • Slow1972
    Slow1972 Posts: 362
    Glad to see you getting behind behind Brit riders, great.

    The guy has obviously lost a LOT of weight - suggest you read recent CW article on how much and how this planed over a 6 or 7 month period so he sustained his power without weight loss - if the weight loss is correct its no surprise hs power to weight ratio which is what climbing is all about has imporved dramatically also

    Wiggins also already generated a lot of power but over shorter periods, hence being a Gold medalling pursuiter... this was the first time for years he has concentrated solely on the road so I don't see why with GT targetted training and reduced weight an dramatic increase without doping isnt achieveable.

    the guy's also published his data online

    what more can he realistically do?

    I think there's lots of other people you should go pointing your finger at before Wiggins tbh
  • Steve Tcp
    Steve Tcp Posts: 7,350
    Publishing his blood test data etc means that any knowledgeable person could pick huge holes in his clean image if there were any suspicious readings, but as yet nobody has done that. Everything I've read on this subject agrees that his values are consistent with a clean rider, and how much more transparent can he be? What else can he do to prove himself to doubters?

    Interesting how many others have followed suit though isn't it?
    Take care,

    Steve.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    I think if a DNA sample would prove he was clean - he would give one.

    100% - mr_clean.gif
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Ramanujan wrote:
    If it were nearly any other rider, that had a similar record of not being able to climb, suddenly loses a few kilos and then bang!...gets 4th in the TDF, wouldn't everyone be questioning that result?
    .

    Vande Velde did more or less the same thing last year (coming from nowhere to come 4th) without losing weight, as far as I know. Nobody really raised their eyebrows to that. It was just a good rider getting his chance and having the right focus.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    I now assume all riders are on the sauce - saves any disappointment later!!!
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  • Smokin Joe
    Smokin Joe Posts: 2,706
    Wiggins has not only published his blood values online, but as a product of BC's performance plan he has come through a system that is vigorous in it's anti-doping stance. There is always a tiny percentage chance that he could be a completely unprincipled cynic who is making fools of us all, but I very much doubt it.

    Brad has been outspoken about doping in the peleton, even calling Di Luca a w@nker. Anyone who himself tested positive after his high profile stance on doping would be making the rest of his life a misery with his character shredded for all time. He doesn't come across as being anywhere near that stupid.

    There are good guys out there, you know.
  • RRPHOTOGRAPHIC
    RRPHOTOGRAPHIC Posts: 14
    NO of course Bradley didn't dope

    Mind you he did eat his weetabix
    http://www.photoshelter.com/c/rupertrivett
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Slow1972 wrote:
    Glad to see you getting behind behind Brit riders, great.

    Didn't know some nationalities excluded riders from what should be considered now to be only natural suspicion? :roll:
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • jimmythecuckoo
    jimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,716
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  • Ramanujan
    Ramanujan Posts: 352
    It seems to me that Wiggins is above suspicion because:

    1. He's British and has come through the BCF program

    2. He lost some weight

    3. Has published his blood values.

    4. He's outspoken against drugs in sport


    Points 1 and 4 have no instrinsic value in proving he's clean.
    Point 2 is circumstantial at best
    Point 3 is probably his best defence, but who really knows whether these blood values are genuine?
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    Ramanujan wrote:
    It seems to me that Wiggins is above suspicion because:

    1. He's British and has come through the BCF program

    2. He lost some weight

    3. Has published his blood values.

    4. He's outspoken against drugs in sport


    Points 1 and 4 have no instrinsic value in proving he's clean.
    Point 2 is circumstantial at best
    Point 3 is probably his best defence, but who really knows whether these blood values are genuine?

    Point 2: circumstantial in that everyone in cycling says he's clearly lost quite a bit of weight?

    Point 3: They're not internal values, he's published the UCI/WADA values. Hence EVERYONE knows the blood values are genuine.
    @stagehopper
  • giropaul
    giropaul Posts: 414
    I don't know if anyone else noticed, and apologies to Mrs Wiggins if it's an inappropriate observation, but Mrs Wiggins appears to me to be very svelte of late.

    Perhaps there has been a family review of diet and nutrition that has been highly succesful.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    teagar wrote:
    Didn't know some nationalities excluded riders from what should be considered now to be only natural suspicion? :roll:
    Pat McQuaid explained this. Apparently only riders from 'Mafia' European countries dope. :roll:
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    BikingBernie wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    Didn't know some nationalities excluded riders from what should be considered now to be only natural suspicion? :roll:
    Pat McQuaid explained this. Apparently only riders from 'Mafia' European countries dope. :roll:

    Fair enough. He is the fountain of all cycling knowledge.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Slow1972 wrote:
    Glad to see you getting behind behind Brit riders, great.

    Is there any particular reason he should get behind Brit riders over any other nationality ?
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • patchy
    patchy Posts: 779
    RRPHOTOGRAPHIC wrote:
    NO of course Bradley didn't dope

    Mind you he did eat his weetabix

    bran flakes, surely?
    point your handlebars towards the heavens and sweat like you're in hell
  • Ramanujan
    Ramanujan Posts: 352
    Point 2: circumstantial in that everyone in cycling says he's clearly lost quite a bit of weight?

    Point 3: They're not internal values, he's published the UCI/WADA values. Hence EVERYONE knows the blood values are genuine.

    point 2 circumstantial since losing weight in and of itself doesn't necassarily mean his performance was legit.

    Point 3: I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
  • bsm2dj
    bsm2dj Posts: 26
    Pokerface- unless Bradley had a blood transfusion can you please explain why you think a DNA sample would prove he is clean?!

    Unfortunately because of what has gone on before in the TdF, any rider that now shows some promise where previously they were just a 'normal' rider, is now a doper...

    Like others have said before lets support the British riders and if they have or do dope then lets get on their cases and belittle them...until then...
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    Ramanujan wrote:
    point 2 circumstantial since losing weight in and of itself doesn't necassarily mean his performance was legit.

    As has been covered here before in great depth, the main argument thrown at many of the suspected but not caught dopers is their power/weight ratios have been physiologically too high throughout their career (suggesting systematic doping from pre-Pro ranks) or there have been big unexplained improvements quite a way into a career.

    The one accepted method (by those who are happy to call out dopers based on P/W ratios) to really improve power/weight ratio is to lose "excess" kilos whilst maintaining power. The mathematics are all in your favour. Thus a rider like Wiggins, who had great power already and has clearly lost weight in a controlled manner, had plenty of scope for big improvement.
    @stagehopper
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    bsm2dj wrote:
    Pokerface- unless Bradley had a blood transfusion can you please explain why you think a DNA sample would prove he is clean?!

    I didn't say that. I said IF a DNA could prove him clean...


    I have no idea how blood doping affects DNA. Probably not at all. But if there was a way to check it.... I'm just saying I bet he would provide it. I'll ask him next time I see him.
  • Steve Tcp
    Steve Tcp Posts: 7,350
    I think what you meant Pokerface was that if Wiggins had been linked with Puerto, he'd have provided his DNA to be compared with that in the blood bags to prove that none of it was his?
    Take care,

    Steve.
  • stagehopper
    stagehopper Posts: 1,593
    DNA is only relevant in two types of doping case:

    i) they find foreign DNA in your in competition or out of competition blood sample - you've had a homologous transfusion as Vinokourov did.

    ii) they find stored blood in a doping centre/your home/random University fridge which they suspect is linked to you and an autologous doping regime (doping with your own blood) - they can then request a DNA sample to confirm whether or not it is your blood

    As Wiggins has never had a sample which failed i) and has never been linked to any stored blood ii) it's a pretty pointless thing to kick around.
    @stagehopper
  • Steve Tcp
    Steve Tcp Posts: 7,350
    stagehopper wrote:
    As Wiggins has never had a sample which failed i) and has never been linked to any stored blood ii) it's a pretty pointless thing to kick around.

    Why is that discussion pointless? During last years Tour for example there was a lot of discussion about the eyebrow raising performances of Ricco who, at that point, hadn't failed a test either. As it turned out it was quite a pertinent discussion? In this case we're discussing what an honest rider might do in a specific situation, hardly pointless imo.
    Take care,

    Steve.
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    jimmythecuckoo wrote:
    I have popped back in and now I am popping back out again...

    This place is dying.

    Absolutely
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Steve Tcp wrote:
    stagehopper wrote:
    As Wiggins has never had a sample which failed i) and has never been linked to any stored blood ii) it's a pretty pointless thing to kick around.

    Why is that discussion pointless? During last years Tour for example there was a lot of discussion about the eyebrow raising performances of Ricco who, at that point, hadn't failed a test either. As it turned out it was quite a pertinent discussion? In this case we're discussing what an honest rider might do in a specific situation, hardly pointless imo.
    Honestly, WTF can a dna sample show? unless youre comparing it a handily stashed top up bag or suggesting hes improved because hes not human and want to prove it then DNA in and of itself is useless.

    If people havent even got the most rudimentary grasp of the most basic science is it any wonder they bang on in this way?

    Not wanting to continue the doping thing but Suggesting someone is clean because they ahve been through BC development might proove to be misleading, theres plenty of evidendce that BC is willing to embrace and not divorce itslef from people involved in that sort of thing. Aftrer all look at the people involved in the itallian place. nuff said.

    The best doping plan is the one where you dont get caught
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    i think i must have typing dislexia above :(

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