Italian Carbon Frameset for Marmotte/GF Pantani?

TheotherNickc

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. My current ride is a Cervelo Soloist team (a rocketship, puts a smile on my face every time i ride it!). I live a mile from Snake pass in the Peak district and seem to have fallen in love with cycling hills.

I'm going to be entering either the Marmotte or Gran Fondo Pantani in 2010 and i'm after a sexy new frameset with 'ride all day' comfort; carbon, lightish and Italian. I'll probably spec it with Campag Centaur or Athena. Budget is up to £1500 for the frame.

I've considered the Cervelo RS but there's something about these Italian frames that speaks to me!

Only one on the list so far Wilier Mortirolo!

thanks in advance!

Nick

p.s. if any glossop area riders want to get in touch I could do with a local riding partner!

Chip \'oyler

Have a look at the Viner Magnifica, which is built especially for Sportives etc

http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/Viner.htm

Compared with other Italian brands, the top end Viners (including the Magnifica) are handmade in Italy

Monty Dog

Wilier is Italian by name, but made in far east - as with most frames at this price point - though Viner are made in Italy.

giant_man

It's all in the ride for me. I don't give a sh$t where it's made, why should I? It's only a matter of time before all Italian bikes are made elsewhere. The Colnago EPS is the only model made in Italy. Not sure about the C50, I think that is made in Italy too.

Wilier bikes are absolutely fine, and the Cento Uno is one great ride.

Chip \'oyler

giant mancp wrote:

It's all in the ride for me. I don't give a sh$t where it's made, why should I? It's only a matter of time before all Italian bikes are made elsewhere. The Colnago EPS is the only model made in Italy. Not sure about the C50, I think that is made in Italy too.

Wilier bikes are absolutely fine, and the Cento Uno is one great ride.

Why? Pray tell

redddraggon

giant mancp wrote:

It's all in the ride for me. I don't give a sh$t where it's made, why should I? It's only a matter of time before all Italian bikes are made elsewhere. The Colnago EPS is the only model made in Italy. Not sure about the C50, I think that is made in Italy too.

Wilier bikes are absolutely fine, and the Cento Uno is one great ride.

AFAIK ALL Colnago lugged frames are made in Italy

TheotherNickc

Thanks for the Viner recommendation. Viner is a brand that's bit off my radar.. which is good. Its a fabulous looking machine. I like the fact that they're made in made in Italy too.
I've spent some time on google and I might see if I can get a test ride!

As for the inevitable (and quite rude) 'who gives a S/^*t' comment. I give a 'S/^*t. I have a Gaggia coffee maker and a Woolworths coffee maker. Both make good coffee. Only one makes me smile when I come down in the morning.

london-red

TheotherNickc wrote:

As for the inevitable (and quite rude) 'who gives a S/^*t' comment. I give a 'S/^*t. I have a Gaggia coffee maker and a Woolworths coffee maker. Both make good coffee. Only one makes me smile when I come down in the morning.

Hey - I don't know if he was being rude - just saying that it's worth looking for frames made outside of Italy as well.

Saying that, the Viner looks like a cracking frame 8)

london-red

BTW - I invested in a Bottecchia 8Avio frameset from Fatbirds earlier this year. Full carbon frame, designed by Botteccia and made in Italy by Deddachia.

It's been a revelation to ride - the acceleration on the thing is just mind blowing - every inch of effort you put in feels as though it goes to exactly the right place. At cruising speed it just seems to purr along as well. Beautiful.

My only problem with it is a half inch crack on the seat tube just above the top tube... Noticed it today when giving the thing a service. Should have gone ti...

TheotherNickc

London Red:
That's a fine looking steed. Yet another Italian brand i've not heard of.
I've got a pair of those wheels on my Cervelo too!

Chip \'oyler

Good review of the Magnifica frame here

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... a-09-33787

redddraggon

London-Red wrote:

BTW - I invested in a Bottecchia 8Avio frameset from Fatbirds earlier this year. Full carbon frame, designed by Botteccia and made in Italy by Deddachia.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I doubt it's made in Italy.



- Dedacciai makes their frames in the far east

- monocoques are nearly exclusively made in the far east - the Taiwanese are the experts at this.

- no mention of "Made in Italy" for the Bottecchia 8Avio anywhere on the internet that I can see - and if it was made in Italy they'd use that as one of the major selling points.

london-red

TheotherNickc wrote:

London Red:
That's a fine looking steed. Yet another Italian brand i've not heard of.
I've got a pair of those wheels on my Cervelo too!

Thanks Nick - it's a cracking ride as well - one that puts a smile on your face. Surprisingly comfortable as well. Let's just hope their warranty is as good as their frame design...

redddraggon wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble but I doubt it's made in Italy.

Strange, you seemed to relish bursting that particular bubble

However, I'd like a stewards inquiry (not that it really matters to me - where something is built is by the by for me, design is more important.

The cheaper Italian Bottecchia frames are made in the Far East - no doubt about that - but the higher range ones, I'm told, are still made in Ital y. Plus, it's got a "Made in Italy" sticker on it. Does that mean anything nowadays?

On balance, I think it is made in Italy (not that it matters, you understand)

Gary Marshall

isn't the test whether is has an english or italian threaded bottom bracket?

my wilier izoard is english threaded and gives every appearance of being built in italy but probably isn't.

apparently if it's made in italy it will have an italian thread bb.

there's always a downside to cheaper carbon frame for all.

redddraggon

Gary Marshall wrote:

isn't the test whether is has an english or italian threaded bottom bracket?

my wilier izoard is english threaded and gives every appearance of being built in italy but probably isn't.

apparently if it's made in italy it will have an italian thread bb.

there's always a downside to cheaper carbon frame for all.

Not anymore. I think italian thread is starting to be phased out.

Chip \'oyler

Gary Marshall wrote:

isn't the test whether is has an english or italian threaded bottom bracket?

my wilier izoard is english threaded and gives every appearance of being built in italy but probably isn't.

apparently if it's made in italy it will have an italian thread bb.

there's always a downside to cheaper carbon frame for all.

My Maxima is definately made in Italy and has an english B/B

As has been said - Italian thread looks like it is being phased out

SunWuKong

London-Red wrote:

Plus, it's got a "Made in Italy" sticker on it. Does that mean anything nowadays?

This can mean that the bike was built in Italy, as in frame, components, wheels, etc were all put together in Italy, but not necessarily the frame itself.

giant_man

TheotherNickc wrote:

Thanks for the Viner recommendation. Viner is a brand that's bit off my radar.. which is good. Its a fabulous looking machine. I like the fact that they're made in made in Italy too.
I've spent some time on google and I might see if I can get a test ride!

As for the inevitable (and quite rude) 'who gives a S/^*t' comment. I give a 'S/^*t. I have a Gaggia coffee maker and a Woolworths coffee maker. Both make good coffee. Only one makes me smile when I come down in the morning.

I certainly wasn't being rude, you're obviously not getting the point here. With more and more bike production being moved to the Far East, there aren't that many Italian brands being made in Italy anymore. As I said, all the Colnagos except for the top EPS model is manufactured in Taiwan or somwhere like it. That's why Colnago put a video on thieir site showing the production of the EPS in their factory in Campiago, Italy. They're still proud of the ones they produce all themselves.

With the demise of atr, who had been the principal suppliers of carbon to cambiago since the late 1980s, Colnago, along with many other cycle manufacturers across the world, have had to seek out carbon expertise in other areas. Currently, this expertise would seem to be concentrated further east.

The frame design is still concentrated 100% at Cambiago, as is the construction of the moulds required to create the finished product, before shipping out to Taiwan. so at the end of the day, you're still buying a Colnago, because it would be rather naive to believe that the Chinese are less adept at carbon production than are the Italians. what the Chinese don't seem to have expertise in is tube and lug construction: doubtless they could learn, but it would seem that the Taiwanese build procedure is concentrated around monocoques. i'm not enough of an expert in this area to know whether this situation can be changed, but i have faith in Colnago to do the right thing. In the blindfold test (metaphorically speaking) i'd be hard pushed to tell a difference.

You're still paying a premium for the name, that's not to say they're not good frames cos they are. All Wilier models AFAIK all made in the Far East, same goes for Fondriest and Bianchi. The Pinarello Prince is not made in Italy of course. On of the exceptions is Viner which as far as I know again are manufactured in Italy.

Why should it matter where it is made? The eastern workforce is very skilled at the construction of these frames and if it looks nice and has the right name on the frame, who cares? I ride a six year old carbon frame made in Taiwan but designed in Canada, and a great frame it is. A Wilier Cento Uno I recently rode was fantastic, designed in Italy and built in the Far East. Best carbon frame I have ever ridden and I've ridden a few. Felt much better than the De Rosa Idol I tested last year. I also rode a Cervelo R3 which was a better ride than the Idol.

So what I am trying to say is don't worry so much about where it's made. It will still be good in years to come cos it's built well, and the most important thing is how it feels, how it handles in different situations, and if it floats yer boat.

london-red

SunWuKong wrote:

London-Red wrote:

Plus, it's got a "Made in Italy" sticker on it. Does that mean anything nowadays?

This can mean that the bike was built in Italy, as in frame, components, wheels, etc were all put together in Italy, but not necessarily the frame itself.

Maybe, but on this occasion it was put together in Kingston upon Thames (I bought the frameset)

TheotherNickc

I certainly wasn't being rude, you're obviously not getting the point here. With more and more bike production being moved to the Far East, there aren't that many Italian brands being made in Italy anymore. As I said, all the Colnagos except for the top EPS model is manufactured in Taiwan or somwhere like it. That's why Colnago put a video on thieir site showing the production of the EPS in their factory in Campiago, Italy. They're still proud of the ones they produce all themselves.

With the demise of atr, who had been the principal suppliers of carbon to cambiago since the late 1980s, Colnago, along with many other cycle manufacturers across the world, have had to seek out carbon expertise in other areas. Currently, this expertise would seem to be concentrated further east.

The frame design is still concentrated 100% at Cambiago, as is the construction of the moulds required to create the finished product, before shipping out to Taiwan. so at the end of the day, you're still buying a Colnago, because it would be rather naive to believe that the Chinese are less adept at carbon production than are the Italians. what the Chinese don't seem to have expertise in is tube and lug construction: doubtless they could learn, but it would seem that the Taiwanese build procedure is concentrated around monocoques. i'm not enough of an expert in this area to know whether this situation can be changed, but i have faith in Colnago to do the right thing. In the blindfold test (metaphorically speaking) i'd be hard pushed to tell a difference.

You're still paying a premium for the name, that's not to say they're not good frames cos they are. All Wilier models AFAIK all made in the Far East, same goes for Fondriest and Bianchi. The Pinarello Prince is not made in Italy of course. On of the exceptions is Viner which as far as I know again are manufactured in Italy.

Why should it matter where it is made? The eastern workforce is very skilled at the construction of these frames and if it looks nice and has the right name on the frame, who cares? I ride a six year old carbon frame made in Taiwan but designed in Canada, and a great frame it is. A Wilier Cento Uno I recently rode was fantastic, designed in Italy and built in the Far East. Best carbon frame I have ever ridden and I've ridden a few. Felt much better than the De Rosa Idol I tested last year. I also rode a Cervelo R3 which was a better ride than the Idol.

So what I am trying to say is don't worry so much about where it's made. It will still be good in years to come cos it's built well, and the most important thing is how it feels, how it handles in different situations, and if it floats yer boat.

OK. Point taken. On re-reading I realise I completely mis-interpreted your post.

Chip \'oyler

There's probably a quick way of working out if a frame is made in Far East or Italy.

If it's a moulded monocoque it will probably be a Far East frame. If it's constructed with the 'traditional' tubes and lug method it's probably Italian.

Gary Marshall

yes, as i noted on another thread the lugged c50 seems to have gone from the 2010 colnago range it's now monocoques ahoy, which suggests Far East.

giant_man

Well no Gary. The C50 and the EPS, both lugged carbon frames are both made in their Campiago factory in Italy. But you are right about their other monocoque frames being made in Far East.

Gary Marshall

though i have watched the video of its construction i thought for some reason eps was a monocoque, but thinking about it i remember the seperate tubes being joined before baking. Seems a lot simpler than brazing a frame together!

mrc1

At the OP you aren't that far from Racescene in Barnsley http://www.racescene.co.uk so it is definitely worth popping in there for all things Italian.

I got a custom build Ciocc Extro http://ciocc.it/ciocc2009_eng.html (as far as I am aware - handmade in Italy (no doubt i will be told that is incorrect)) from them a few months ago and love it.

giant_man

No you are right; Ciocc and Casati are still both Italian made as far as I'm aware. Very nice too ... I would love a Casati Lazer.

mrc1

I had a tough time deciding between Casati and Ciocc but got a great deal on the Ciocc frame as it was last year's colours (black weave, gun metal grey and white which IMO looks better anyway) instead of the red one on the website.

Racescene is a dangerous place to go near with a credit card........

hopper1

How about Cinelli?
I know that, as a monocoque design, it's probably made in the Far East, but the 'Willin' is very comfortable...

e999sam

I've got a Kuota Kebel which I've been very pleased with. It's designed in Italy but again built in the far east. A mate has a Fondriest which I'm very impressed with there's obviously a lot of thought gone into the design.

TheotherNickc

Thanks for all the recomendations so far..
I'd narrowed it down on paper to a Viner Magnifica/Perfecta or a Wilier Izoard.
Then the Casati and Ciocc crop up.. at a dealer nearby! Not brands I'm familair with. Although I once had a Casati overtake me so I guess that's good! I like the idea of buying from a smaller Italian brand. More googling and a visit to Racescene and the Viner dealer in Leeds methinks!

knedlicky

As well as names like Casati already mentioned, I recommend Somec, I have a custom-made one, although not one of the current carbon frames.
There’s only one dealer in the UK, so you’d be a rarity - Race Scene in Barnsley (already mentioned for Ciocc), so not too far from Glossop. Somec fit your wish for a ‘smaller Italian brand’.

You could also consider Basso, Moser, Guerciotti, Scapin, and Tommasini. The Basso dealer is in Derby, Scapin in Harrogate Tommasini in Surrey (a bit far?).
Not sure about Basso and Moser, but I’m pretty certain the last 3 are small made-in-Italy companies, so also fitting your wish.