RLJer gets nicked

secretsam

600 replies!!! FFS we could have reinvigorated the national economy with the amount of effort that's gone into this thread

And I bet the person who originally got done has now a) paid the fine and b) forgotten all about it

And I also bet that the copper has stopped telling everyone about it, having now found a different "you'll never guess what I caught someone doing today..." story...

lost_in_thought

I can't believe this thread is still on the first page...

Wallace1492

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can't believe this thread is still on the first page...

Hi LiT, how was Normandy?

Headhuunter

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can't believe this thread is still on the first page...

Me neither! I'm just back from a week holiday an it's STILL rolling on!

Porgy

Headhuunter wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can't believe this thread is still on the first page...

Me neither! I'm just back from a week holiday an it's STILL rolling on!

limping on

Porgy

coughing up blood now.

Headhuunter

I think it was dead, you just gave it the kiss of life....

Porgy

just poking it with a stick to see if it moves.

OldSkoolKona

Hey, well at least keeping the thread on the front page stops me having to add another RLJ thread to the list I made on page 17. Or was it page 29....

Mr Sworld

Come on! We all know we're waiting for Weed to make another comment. Without him/her my weekdays would be so....... boring...... YAWN!

prawny

Yay! :roll:

Aidy

It's always struck me as pretty lame to come on and badmouth competitor's products.

One might also construe continual references to your own website as spam.

Aguila

weadmire wrote:

Aquilla,

We were speaking to a medic last Friday, he came to our studio and bought a few shirts. He came across the website through Bike Radar and was familiar with this thread. He gave us a clue as to how he came by us with the words “confounding factors”. After we had all finished grinning we naturally started talking about forums and medical treatment. I don't recall the precise words he used but he said “confounding factors” is a phrase that is in common use among medical practitioners. His comment was that it is a standard professional self justification and an excuse for doing nothing. I was so surprised. He went on to say that all doctors will admit that before the 1940's they killed more patients than they cured. The development of antibiotics marks the key change in their rate of success apparently. It does occur to me that if that is so surely the medics do not deserve the credit. This kill to cure ratio thing came as news to me but I cannot say I was entirely surprised. Does your profession monitor the numbers now. I would understand if they preferred not to.

I would say you are wrong about pharmaceutical companies being reliable sources of advice to practitioners, I find it strange that you apparently think they might be. You are certainly wrong about the treatment of Crohn's. Herman-Taylor, a man who has consistently delivered in the treatment of the disease, will tell you that around 90% of Crohn's cases are cured with the antibiotics I named. The treatment is drawn out, you have to take two very unpleasant antibiotics for about 2 years, but the treatment delivers a cure, and I expect it has been refined by now. As I understand it Herman-Taylor is of the view that Crohn's is basically tuberculosis of the digestive tract.

You are wrong about Crohn's and you are wrong about traffic lights. Further there is consistency in the way you express your resistance to both arguments. In the case of traffic lights it is by way of some tosh about confounding factors that to a casual reader sounds intelligent, precise and credible. And your comments about the treatment of Crohn's similarly seek to damn through some apparent detailed consideration over the treatment dished out by your peers to Crohn's sufferers. I think these arguments are phoney, you do not believe what you are saying.

And so it continues..... I'm wondering wether there is actually any point trying to have a rational discussion with you but lets try again. Dealing with your points in turn:

1 I take it the "medic" you met is not a medical statistician, this has got nothing to do with "excusing doing nothing", it is all about establishing causal relationships. You dont have to take my word for it, just do a google search for an independant explanation. For example imagine 2 groups of people and you want to see if drinking tea causes cancer so you compare tea drinking rates in the 2 groups. You find a high rate of lung cancer in the people who drink tea, hey presto tea causes cancer. However subsequent analysis shows that all the tea drinkers are smokers, smoking is the confounding factor in this case and the true cause of the cancer, this could then be proven by eliminating the confounder by repeating the study with equal numbers of smokers in each group.

2 "Kill to cure". The success of all treatment is of course monitored. this is the reason we practice evidence based medicine ie treatment PROVEN to work rather than just taking some mans word for it. With any treatment you must balance the risks with the benefits. Presumably you think 2 years of anti-tuberculous treatment is totally risk free (it isn't: liver failure, blindness, neuropathy all occur)

3 Pharma companies are not generally good sources of advice rather they are good at making money, they would be pushing very hard if this "90%" success rate were genuine. Crohns is a pharma company's dream disease, affecting as it does mainly rich developed nations.

4 From my reading of the subject there is some emeging evidence linking environmental mycobacteria with crohns eg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1744 ... rom=pubmed

However I can find no evidence for the use of anti-mycobacterial drugs in its treatment. What is needed is a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled trial of such drugs. if that shows the effect you describe, that would be fantastic and would be welcomed by all in the medical profession. This level of evidence is needed before treatment can be recommended on a wide scale. Anecdote is not enough, here's another example to explain why:

Man gets a viral cold/flu and goes to his gp with the resulting cough and fever, gp gives him a week's supply of antibiotics. 3 days later he is completely well again, therefore antibiotics treat viral colds. WRONG

the success of the treatment is actually assessed by a placebo controlled trial ie take 2 groups of people with viral colds and give half placebo and half antibiotics, this then shows that the 2 groups get better at exactly the same time ie antibiotics have no effect.

If you can give me a referrence to such a trial in crohns by herman-taylor or anyone else I'll happily acknowledge that you are right otherwise you'll have to acknowlege there is no evidence. And how do you explain that crohns is more likely in smokers, why does it run in families and why is it rarely seen in africa where TB and HIV are rampant if mycobacteria are the true cause??

5 I have no doubt you are wrong about RLJ, we still await the evidence. It appears from what you have told us that the confounder is road positioning ie sitting in the blindspot of lorries.

Oh and just to reasure you I really really do beleive what I'm saying! I can't understand what you think the motivation of doctors would be to ignore the "overwhelming evidence" you claim exists. We exist to try and get people better and would grasp such treatment with both hands were it available. You seem to think we are some shady underworld delighting in people's suffering.

Porgy

Blimey!! I name this thread Lazarus

lost_in_thought

I tell you what, if I had an online business this isn't how I'd promote it.

Aidy

lost_in_thought wrote:

I tell you what, if I had an online business this isn't how I'd promote it.

I do get very put off by such tactics.
I generally refuse to purchase from them.

always_tyred

I don't really understand. Therefore you are wrong and merely trying to confuse me with technobabble. Or pseudo-technobabble, since the reason that I can't understand it is because its all nonsense. If it wasn't nonsense, I'd understand it, cos I is smart.

always_tyred

Aidy wrote:

It's always struck me as pretty lame to come on and badmouth competitor's products.

It never did Pepsi any harm.

prawny

Give it up Aguila, your puny doctor mind is no match for a t-shirt seller, who continually refers to themself as we, advertises their expensive computer equipment on intenet formum and doesn't see that road positioning is the problem no waiting at lights.

Imagine this scenario, coming up to traffic lights two cyclists are filtering, there is an LGV stopped at the lights. One cyclists decides to wait in the traffic queue well behind the lorry which is not indicating and is in the middle of the road with a clear route to the left hand side where there is a cycle lane with an asl. The other thinks that the safest betis to jum the red light to be out of the way and carries on down the cycle lane. Before cyclist 2 gets all the way past the truck the lights change and the truck turns left. Oh dear.

Now weadmire's 'stats' would show that cyclist 2 was obeying the lights but they weren't, they just hadn't got to them before they were crushed to death.

I had a similar situation the other morning with a lorry in the right had lane not indicating and then turning left across me, it was only experience that stopped me sailing up the left and being killed, the whole red light thing is a red herring (no pun intended)

Damn I tried ot to get into this and no doubt I'll be flamed into oblivion because my dad has never been knocked off his bike and I don't have my own business (will several other members of my family)

Mr Sworld

And there I was thinking it was going to be a dull Wednesday! Thank you Weed, your drivelling missives fill my workplace with light!

Thank you, thank you, thank you! x

Soul Boy

Did I say nice? Sorry, I meant Super Nice.

http://www.howies.co.uk/product.php/2144/7/

I don't mind paying a little extra http://www.howies.co.uk/content.php?xSecId=39 and http://www.howies.co.uk/content.php?xId=1&xPg=1

I feel a little dirty dragging their good name into this thread :evil:

weadmire

Aquilla,

They would welcome a cure for Crohn's in the same way the medical community welcomed with open minds and arms the work of Warren and Marshall on stomach ulcers? Sure. Who do you see as your audience with this stuff?

Try these on Crohn's: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40722

http://www.crohnscanada.org/english/map ... about.html

http://www.action.org.uk/press_release/ ... 9s_disease

This is not exhaustive if you want more google Herman Taylor Chrohn's

A question on the medical profession: Doctor puts his hand up the skirt of a willing patient who is over 21 and wants said hand up said skirt. He gets caught. He gets struck off. Incompetent Doctor kills patient by making an obvious clinical mistake. Doesn't even get a warning or if he does the warning carries almost no censure. Why is this the case? What is it that so perverts the profession's values?

Prawny,
Sad that you are joining the group that wants to blame cyclists for their too frequent demise at traffic lights under the wheels of trucks, approaching half of which are known to be unroadworthy. If cyclists were taught to jump lights with care and consideration they would quickly learn a proper awareness of the risks involved. Which is why virtually no cyclists who jump lights get killed while 100s get killed complying with them. Lights are a rubbish means of managing traffic. They interfere with the process of human nature and lead people to neglecting their responsibilities. Particularly truck drivers apparently. Why do you claim otherwise? Because you want the approbation of motor vehicle drivers?

Aidy,
Would you care to detail how I bad mouthed a competitor. I commented on the claim Howies were "nice", whatever nice means, and posed a question or two. There was no bad mouthing.

Sword,
Even your mother would be inclined to think you are contradicting yourself with your last post. Are you joining the "get a lifers"?

prawny

Weadmire,

Thank you for not bothering to read what I wrote you obviously are as stupid as you seem.
I can't see how jumping lights with care would solve the problem any more than waiting at lights with care. I think care is the problem for cyclists and drivers. I myself have had a few close calls with cars, instigated by bad driving yes, but if I'd been more aware at those times it wouldn't have been so close. If you read what I actually wrote, if you are careful you can avoid other people stupidity jumping reds or not. would you class the flat cyclist in my hypothetical situation as complying with the lights?

I love traffic lights anyway they're pretty.

I love the bit about them interfering with human nature too, do you feel this way about supermarkets? Should we not eat what we kill? How about equality for the disabled? What happened to survival of the fittest? Infact it's not human nature to wear t-shirts is it?

I'm not joining any group either I'm basing my stance on my own experience, albeit this is not from a london cyclist point of view, drivers in Brum aren't used to seeing cyclists, that's why I don't use ASLs either very often.

Paulie W

Aguila wrote:

weadmire wrote:

Aquilla,

We were speaking to a medic last Friday, he came to our studio and bought a few shirts. He came across the website through Bike Radar and was familiar with this thread. He gave us a clue as to how he came by us with the words “confounding factors”. After we had all finished grinning we naturally started talking about forums and medical treatment. I don't recall the precise words he used but he said “confounding factors” is a phrase that is in common use among medical practitioners. His comment was that it is a standard professional self justification and an excuse for doing nothing. I was so surprised. He went on to say that all doctors will admit that before the 1940's they killed more patients than they cured. The development of antibiotics marks the key change in their rate of success apparently. It does occur to me that if that is so surely the medics do not deserve the credit. This kill to cure ratio thing came as news to me but I cannot say I was entirely surprised. Does your profession monitor the numbers now. I would understand if they preferred not to.

I would say you are wrong about pharmaceutical companies being reliable sources of advice to practitioners, I find it strange that you apparently think they might be. You are certainly wrong about the treatment of Crohn's. Herman-Taylor, a man who has consistently delivered in the treatment of the disease, will tell you that around 90% of Crohn's cases are cured with the antibiotics I named. The treatment is drawn out, you have to take two very unpleasant antibiotics for about 2 years, but the treatment delivers a cure, and I expect it has been refined by now. As I understand it Herman-Taylor is of the view that Crohn's is basically tuberculosis of the digestive tract.

You are wrong about Crohn's and you are wrong about traffic lights. Further there is consistency in the way you express your resistance to both arguments. In the case of traffic lights it is by way of some tosh about confounding factors that to a casual reader sounds intelligent, precise and credible. And your comments about the treatment of Crohn's similarly seek to damn through some apparent detailed consideration over the treatment dished out by your peers to Crohn's sufferers. I think these arguments are phoney, you do not believe what you are saying.

And so it continues..... I'm wondering wether there is actually any point trying to have a rational discussion with you but lets try again.

Aguila for an evidently intelligent person you are very slow to catch on...let it go!

always_tyred

WeadMire - what is your solution to the problem of the medical profession holding back medical progress? Do you propose to lower the bar and simply allow more therapeutic agents to be applied for more conditions on the basis of less evidence?

For example, I believe that there is some evidence that ingesting vast quantities of vitamin-C may prevent and cure cancer. The evidence is anecdotal and the main proponent of the treatment died of cancer.

However, I believe it. Would it be reasonable on that basis for me to start accusing the medical profession of deliberately letting people die of cancer?

prawny

Always Tyred wrote:

WeadMire - what is your solution to the problem of the medical profession holding back medical progress? Do you propose to lower the bar and simply allow more therapeutic agents to be applied for more conditions on the basis of less evidence?

For example, I believe that there is some evidence that ingesting vast quantities of vitamin-C may prevent and cure cancer. The evidence is anecdotal and the main proponent of the treatment died of cancer.

However, I believe it. Would it be reasonable on that basis for me to start accusing the medical profession of deliberately letting people die of cancer?

How would you be issuing the treatment? If it involved large quantities of Ribena, put me down on the trial when the inevitable happens, unless I am killed waiting in a queue of traffic first of course.

MonkeyMonster

Monty Python wins out against all arguments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbPovgCP5BU

always_tyred

prawny wrote:

How would you be issuing the treatment? If it involved large quantities of Ribena, put me down on the trial when the inevitable happens, unless I am killed waiting in a queue of traffic first of course.

No no, just in powedered form. Several spoonfulls each day. Down the hatch.

I also think there was a guy who believed that petroleum jelly prevented arthritis. As I recall, he consumed about half a jar of the stuff each day.

Inexplicably, the medical profession still fails to advise elderly patients that consuming a powerful laxative like its going out of fashion is in their best interests.

prawny

Always Tyred wrote:

prawny wrote:

How would you be issuing the treatment? If it involved large quantities of Ribena, put me down on the trial when the inevitable happens, unless I am killed waiting in a queue of traffic first of course.

No no, just in powedered form. Several spoonfulls each day. Down the hatch.

I also think there was a guy who believed that petroleum jelly prevented arthritis. As I recall, he consumed about half a jar of the stuff each day.

Inexplicably, the medical profession still fails to advise elderly patients that consuming a powerful laxative like its going out of fashion is in their best interests.

Meh count me out then.

A bloke I used to work with OD'd on vitC once trying to shift a cold, he was sh1tting for england

the_hundredth_idiot

Confounding factors are not an excuse for doing nothing. I'm not sure that idea makes complete sense but it's frankly dangerous to suggest such a thing.

Aguila gave a good example of a confounding factor - I'd have been more tempted to come up with one based on Native Americans doing rain dances to show how ridiculous it would be to ignore confounding factors. If you ignore them, any conclusions you reach are invalid.

Can I suggest Weadmire (and perhaps his/her new medic friend) read Simon Singh's recent book, Trick or Treatment? This book gives a lengthy and detailed explanation how an understanding of these issues is actually one of the key reasons why the medical profession now does (for the most part) help patients rather than harm them as used to happen when treatment was based on hunches rather than scientific evidence.