RLJer gets nicked

Onan

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I think that's for you to decide - I don't RLJ or pavement ride - if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike

Technically, as the question was "am I the embodiment of everything you hate?", it can't possibly be up to me to decide.

And as for this:

"if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike."

That really is just the worst kind of conceited snobbery. I respect everyone's decision to get out of a car and on a bike, whether they are a lycra clad roadie, shooting past me at 30mph, or the fat old bloke wobbling along on the pavement with a carrier bag hanging from his bars. Everyones fitness, confidence and proficiency are different. For some people, some of the time, avoiding the road is the right thing to do. They have as much right to call themselves a cyclist as you do.

always_tyred

Onan wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I think that's for you to decide - I don't RLJ or pavement ride - if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike

Technically, as the question was "am I the embodiment of everything you hate?", it can't possibly be up to me to decide.

And as for this:

"if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike."

That really is just the worst kind of conceited snobbery. I respect everyone's decision to get out of a car and on a bike, whether they are a lycra clad roadie, shooting past me at 30mph, or the fat old bloke wobbling along on the pavement with a carrier bag hanging from his bars. Everyones fitness, confidence and proficiency are different. For some people, some of the time, avoiding the road is the right thing to do. They have as much right to call themselves a cyclist as you do.

Can I ask - would you LIKE to be able to tackle the junctions which you refer to without taking to the pavement, or jumping the lights? Is a level of proficiency that enables you to do this safely something you aspire to?

Onan

Always Tyred wrote:

Onan wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I think that's for you to decide - I don't RLJ or pavement ride - if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike

Technically, as the question was "am I the embodiment of everything you hate?", it can't possibly be up to me to decide.

And as for this:

"if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike."

That really is just the worst kind of conceited snobbery. I respect everyone's decision to get out of a car and on a bike, whether they are a lycra clad roadie, shooting past me at 30mph, or the fat old bloke wobbling along on the pavement with a carrier bag hanging from his bars. Everyones fitness, confidence and proficiency are different. For some people, some of the time, avoiding the road is the right thing to do. They have as much right to call themselves a cyclist as you do.

Can I ask - would you LIKE to be able to tackle the junctions which you refer to without taking to the pavement, or jumping the lights? Is a level of proficiency that enables you to do this safely something you aspire to?

Yep.

I do 99% of my cycling on the road. I prefer to be there, despite the fact that I'm not very fit, not very fast (compounded by the fact that I'm recovering from a very painful surgery), and have never driven a car, because I feel like that's where I'm supposed to be.

I just occasionally cop out for the last little stretch of my journey, which involves the aforementioned mental junction, and then a fairly steep, narrow hill, which is usually rammed with traffic.

What I'm saying is that I don't feel like we ought to be looking down on people who don't feel able to use the roads competently, because it really is a daunting prospect, and for some people, a completely unrealistic one. We all know how hostile of a place the road can be.

We should surely be saying that cycling is the right choice for everybody, not telling people they have no right to be on a bike? My fat old mum for instance, would benefit enormously from getting on a bike for a bit, but I can't see her taking on rush hour traffic. It'd be a shame if we developed an attitude which excluded people like her.

suzyb

Onan wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I think that's for you to decide - I don't RLJ or pavement ride - if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike

Technically, as the question was "am I the embodiment of everything you hate?", it can't possibly be up to me to decide.

And as for this:

"if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike."

That really is just the worst kind of conceited snobbery. I respect everyone's decision to get out of a car and on a bike, whether they are a lycra clad roadie, shooting past me at 30mph, or the fat old bloke wobbling along on the pavement with a carrier bag hanging from his bars. Everyones fitness, confidence and proficiency are different. For some people, some of the time, avoiding the road is the right thing to do. They have as much right to call themselves a cyclist as you do.

For example if your cycling alongside your son on his bike (as a guy I saw yesterday) or have just got back on a bike after 10 years and do not want to risk cycling on the road in case you wobble in front of 60mph traffic.

always_tyred

This does seem to be a reasonable argument. And quite different from the "RLJing is safer" blanket statement. I have said earlier in the thread that whilst it is possible to ride without rljing or being on the pavement, quite safely, it is also possible that it is safer for certain people under certain circumstances. Its also rather different from contending that you are actually in danger sitting at a red light, as certain posters have stated.

The hostility towards cycling is very British, and I've also consistently said that the venom directed towards cyclists isn't really related to what they are actually doing, more towards the resentment that they are moving more or less for free, whereas the driver tends to be stationary, or moving very much slower than they think they should be, at great expense.

I wonder if it will change if petrol gets to £4 a litre and more people start buzzing around on (electric) bicycles?*


*I never seriously expect the general Briton to propel themselves anywhere.

tailwindhome

Always Tyred wrote:

and I've also consistently said that the venom directed towards cyclists isn't really related to what they are actually doing, more towards the resentment that they are moving more or less for free, whereas the driver tends to be stationary, or moving very much slower than they think they should be, at great expense.

Don't know about this. I believe part of the resentment against pavement riding and RLJ is the feeling that others are breaking the rules that we (wether as drivers or cyclists) are obeying.

I personally have a deep hatred of anyone parking in either a mother&child or disabled spaces

Onan

Always Tyred wrote:

I wonder if it will change if petrol gets to £4 a litre and more people start buzzing around on (electric) bicycles?*


*I never seriously expect the general Briton to propel themselves anywhere.

I've noticed a distinct correlation between rising petrol prices, and my own soaring smugness levels. I'm currently operating at a dangerously high smug-factor.

always_tyred

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

and I've also consistently said that the venom directed towards cyclists isn't really related to what they are actually doing, more towards the resentment that they are moving more or less for free, whereas the driver tends to be stationary, or moving very much slower than they think they should be, at great expense.

Don't know about this. I believe part of the resentment against pavement riding and RLJ is the feeling that others are breaking the rules that we (wether as drivers or cyclists) are obeying.

I personally have a deep hatred of anyone parking in either a mother&child or disabled spaces

Both of the above, maybe?
I tend to downplay this one, given the number of rules that are routinely and flagrantly broken by motorists without any comparable venom.

roger_merriman

Always Tyred wrote:

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

and I've also consistently said that the venom directed towards cyclists isn't really related to what they are actually doing, more towards the resentment that they are moving more or less for free, whereas the driver tends to be stationary, or moving very much slower than they think they should be, at great expense.

Don't know about this. I believe part of the resentment against pavement riding and RLJ is the feeling that others are breaking the rules that we (wether as drivers or cyclists) are obeying.

I personally have a deep hatred of anyone parking in either a mother&child or disabled spaces

Both of the above, maybe?
I tend to downplay this one, given the number of rules that are routinely and flagrantly broken by motorists without any comparable venom.

i think there is a differnce between flaunting the rules RLJ and bending the rules, going though as it changes red or soon after, that they are the one and the same isn't seen as so. at least thats my impression any way.

suzyb

As someone who takes her disabled Gran for her shopping ever week it drives me mad seeing people illegally parked in disabled spaces.

But I don't think the resentment toward RLJers is necessarily just because they are breaking rules that motorists are obeying. I think they're resentful because they can't break the rule even if they wanted to.

The Chingford Skinhead

I know what you're saying null but I see drivers RLJ every day. They also talk on phones, speed, drive without due care and attention, park illegally etc. The problem is that so much emotional baggage is tied up with their "car" that they hate to see anyone else breaking the rules.

jimmypippa

Always Tyred wrote:

I wonder if it will change if petrol gets to £4 a litre and more people start buzzing around on (electric) bicycles?*


*I never seriously expect the general Briton to propel themselves anywhere.

Do you think that the UK is Europe's version of USA-lite?

tebbit

That thought is too depressing to contemplate.

the_hundredth_idiot

roger merriman wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

and I've also consistently said that the venom directed towards cyclists isn't really related to what they are actually doing, more towards the resentment that they are moving more or less for free, whereas the driver tends to be stationary, or moving very much slower than they think they should be, at great expense.

Don't know about this. I believe part of the resentment against pavement riding and RLJ is the feeling that others are breaking the rules that we (wether as drivers or cyclists) are obeying.

I personally have a deep hatred of anyone parking in either a mother&child or disabled spaces

Both of the above, maybe?
I tend to downplay this one, given the number of rules that are routinely and flagrantly broken by motorists without any comparable venom.

i think there is a differnce between flaunting the rules RLJ and bending the rules, going though as it changes red or soon after, that they are the one and the same isn't seen as so. at least thats my impression any way.

I was going to be picky about the difference between flaunting and flouting (which I suspect is the word you meant to use). But then I thought perhaps flaunting works okay after all!

Jay dubbleU

-null- wrote:

Onan wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I think that's for you to decide - I don't RLJ or pavement ride - if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike

Technically, as the question was "am I the embodiment of everything you hate?", it can't possibly be up to me to decide.

And as for this:

"if you can't hack the road you shouldn't be on a bike."

That really is just the worst kind of conceited snobbery. I respect everyone's decision to get out of a car and on a bike, whether they are a lycra clad roadie, shooting past me at 30mph, or the fat old bloke wobbling along on the pavement with a carrier bag hanging from his bars. Everyones fitness, confidence and proficiency are different. For some people, some of the time, avoiding the road is the right thing to do. They have as much right to call themselves a cyclist as you do.

For example if your cycling alongside your son on his bike (as a guy I saw yesterday) or have just got back on a bike after 10 years and do not want to risk cycling on the road in case you wobble in front of 60mph traffic.

I see what you mean - never the less if cyclists want to be taken seriously they need to develop a level of skill which enables them to deal with road situations in the same way as motorists - I get seriously hacked off at youths on bikes attempting to ride along a footpath which is about 1.5m wide and has kids in prams, pensioners etc at a pace which is frankly dangerous.
As for RLJer's they belong in the shallow end of the gene pool and hopefully won't survive long enough to breed.
Sorry if I'm coming over as a smug b*stard and although I've only been back on a bike for a year after a 10 year break I have taken time to relearn skills so that I can ride safely on the road

suzyb

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I see what you mean - never the less if cyclists want to be taken seriously they need to develop a level of skill which enables them to deal with road situations in the same way as motorists - I get seriously hacked off at youths on bikes attempting to ride along a footpath which is about 1.5m wide and has kids in prams, pensioners etc at a pace which is frankly dangerous.

Yeah that hacks me off as well especially when the cyclist is older and really should have more respect for people. I mean I've seen people cycling along a pedestrian precinct where most of it is closed off for "improvements" and there is barely enough room left for two people to pass each other. And along comes some w****r who is too disrespectful to dismount and walk a little :evil:

Of course some of those pensioner with their mobility scooters are just as bad. Wouldn't be the first time one of them has almost run me over as they've flew by at top speed.

always_tyred

jimmypippa wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

I wonder if it will change if petrol gets to £4 a litre and more people start buzzing around on (electric) bicycles?*


*I never seriously expect the general Briton to propel themselves anywhere.

Do you think that the UK is Europe's version of USA-lite?

Spot on.

Jay dubbleU

-null- wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

I see what you mean - never the less if cyclists want to be taken seriously they need to develop a level of skill which enables them to deal with road situations in the same way as motorists - I get seriously hacked off at youths on bikes attempting to ride along a footpath which is about 1.5m wide and has kids in prams, pensioners etc at a pace which is frankly dangerous.

Yeah that hacks me off as well especially when the cyclist is older and really should have more respect for people. I mean I've seen people cycling along a pedestrian precinct where most of it is closed off for "improvements" and there is barely enough room left for two people to pass each other. And along comes some w****r who is too disrespectful to dismount and walk a little :evil:

Of course some of those pensioner with their mobility scooters are just as bad. Wouldn't be the first time one of them has almost run me over as they've flew by at top speed.

Some people particularly young men seem to regard it as a blow to their manhood if they have to get off and walk - agree with you about the pensioners though

iainment

Sometimes I think that there is more prejudice against cyclists from other cyclists than from any other group.

always_tyred

iainment wrote:

Sometimes I think that there is more prejudice against cyclists from other cyclists than from any other group.

You only think this because you openly advocate doing something that most cyclists disaprove of. Further, most cyclists have at one time or another, been verbally abused, or worse, as a result of something they themselves don't do.

So, when someone pipes up that they do it, its pretty understandable that it get an adverse reception. It doesn't make things any better when the reasoning is "I'm alright, Jack."

iainment

But you , apparently, flout the law re pedal reflectors and this is ok.

Please re read what I have posted re RLJ. I have always said that other roadusers and peds should be respected and no ones right of way be taken. I don't advocate ignoring others feelings or the consequences of what you do, but don't see the need to wait at a light with the way clear and no danger to me or others.

Pip pip.

always_tyred

iainment wrote:

But you , apparently, flout the law re pedal reflectors and this is ok.

Please re read what I have posted re RLJ. I have always said that other roadusers and peds should be respected and no ones right of way be taken. I don't advocate ignoring others feelings or the consequences of what you do, but don't see the need to wait at a light with the way clear and no danger to me or others.

Pip pip.

Do people shout at you becuase I don't have pedal reflectors but am otherwise very well lit?

No. What I do isn't selfish. What you do is. You state, "I don't advocate ignoring others feelings or the consequences of what you do" and do the opposite.

In the instant you do it, you may be careful, you may be considerate, but you have not acknowledged, or understood, the indirect effects. I don't think they are proportionate actions, but they do occur. Sticking your head in the sand because it is convenient for you is your perogative, but I see no reason for me to like it.

Pip pip.

iainment

Always tyred,

I don't agree that rljers per se inflame people against cyclists. I don't agree that I am selfish as no one is adversely effected by my actions. I don't see the link that is made on here, I think that a large number of motorists are prejudiced against cyclists because they see us as below them and whatever we do they will not respect us, so why pander to them. I think that wreckless cyclists who endanger others are reprehensible.

I suppose the point I am making is that those who lambast me because I break the law should perhaps be 100% in their observance of it. Apologies if you did not make that point in that way.

Pip pip!

always_tyred

iainment wrote:

Always tyred,

I don't agree that rljers per se inflame people against cyclists. I don't agree that I am selfish as no one is adversely effected by my actions. I don't see the link that is made on here, I think that a large number of motorists are prejudiced against cyclists because they see us as below them and whatever we do they will not respect us, so why pander to them. I think that wreckless cyclists who endanger others are reprehensible.

I suppose the point I am making is that those who lambast me because I break the law should perhaps be 100% in their observance of it. Apologies if you did not make that point in that way.

Pip pip!

I know that's what you think, and its fine.

Since I disagree, I am bound to lambast you to some degree. I can only speak from my own experience, which tells me that rlj-ing is the single most irritating thing to motorists and that a small proportion will exact revenge as a result.

This is why I disaprove of it. Why I don't personally do it is because I don't have to and because on the whole I don't think its particularly safe. However, having lived in Canada, where you can filter right on a red light, WHEN pedestrians are allowed to cross, its perfectly reasonable to want minor changes to the law to permit at least some of the circumstances you describe.

So I don't disagree with you entirely!!

secretsam

Crikey, is this thread still going?!?!?!?!

always_tyred

SecretSam wrote:

Crikey, is this thread still going?!?!?!?!

A substantial part of it was sheer entertainment. Hopefully that will spark off again and brighten my day. 8)

biondino

iainment wrote:

Sometimes I think that there is more prejudice against cyclists from other cyclists than from any other group.

But people are always most judgmental about the things they dislike about themselves, so it's not surprising.

I legally parked in a parent and child parking space the other day! It was brilliant

Porgy

biondino wrote:

iainment wrote:

Sometimes I think that there is more prejudice against cyclists from other cyclists than from any other group.

But people are always most judgmental about the things they dislike about themselves, so it's not surprising.

I legally parked in a parent and child parking space the other day! It was brilliant

I used to park in them all the time - only some times I forgot I didn't have the kid with me. :oops:

biondino

Onan wrote:

I think I break several laws, and perhaps more importantly, commit several commuterising forum faux pas on my commute.

I pootle up to the lights at an insanely busy junction in the right hand lane, as if I'm about to turn right. Then if the lights change, I technically jump them, but only to go as far as the pedestrian crossing, which I then nip accross, and finish the short remainder of my journey on the pavement.

If the lights stay green, I take it as a sign, and cycle accross the junction I'm convinced will one day kill me on the road.

Am I the embodiment of everything you hate?

Gosh, you are! We should rename the unholy combination of RLJing and pavement riding "Onanism". Perhaps there could be some kind of gesture attached?

always_tyred

biondino wrote:

iainment wrote:

Sometimes I think that there is more prejudice against cyclists from other cyclists than from any other group.

But people are always most judgmental about the things they dislike about themselves, so it's not surprising.

I legally parked in a parent and child parking space the other day! It was brilliant

In order to legally park in a parent and child space, do you have to make sure you leave a parent and a child in the vehicle? Isn't that a bit dangerous in the hot weather?