Stephen Lawrence

spen666

Its now several years since the death of Stephen lawrence, many expensive court proceedings, both civil and criminal have happened, as well as the MacPherson inquiry

Has any of the court cases/ inquiries made any difference to life in Britain?


clearly it affected the Lawrence family and those directly alleged to be involved, but what about society at large?

Gazzaputt

eh?

Wallace1492

Was Stephen Lawrence riding a commuter bike when he was murdered? If not, then I fail to see what this post has to do with a Cycling, Commuter Bike forum.

DonDaddyD

I'm half expecting by the end of this page to be post deep in an argument with someone about society, ethnic diversity, the BNP (Spen666, who once described them as a legitiment party) or something....

I'm hoping quantum mechanics are kind and greeted with the possibility. But then I guess there was a possiblity where I didn't write this at all....

Rich158

The sad truth is it probably hasn't. In the intervening years we've seen the BNP get representatives elected at a local level :shock: , and in general terms the issues surrounding racism and race hate crime don't seem to have been addressed.

Unfortunately there is still an underbelly in this country that believes immigration is wrong and that it's ok to attack people due to their ethnicity. Certain sections of the gutter press (masquerading as inteligent journalism) do nothing at all to help matters, with headlines and articles relating to immigration that are clearly designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm half expecting by the end of this page to be post deep in an argument with someone about society, ethnic diversity, the BNP (Spen666, who once described them as a legitiment party) or something....

I'm hoping quantum mechanics are kind and greeted with the possibility. But then I guess there was a possiblity where I didn't write this at all....

The BNP are a legitimate party. I may not agree with their views as I don't agree with those of the SWP or thwe Communist party or UKIP, but all are legitimate parties and I would defend their right to exist.

However, what has the legitimacy of the BNP got to do with whether the aftermath of the death of Stephen Lawrence has changed society in Britain

spen666

Rich158 wrote:

...

Unfortunately there is still an underbelly in this country that believes immigration is wrong and that it's ok to attack people due to their ethnicity. ....

The lumping of these two distinctly different views together ~IMHO simply pushes those who oppose further unlimited immigration towards extremist parties.

It is more than likely that most people who oppose unlimited immigration into the UK also oppose the use of violence towards immigrants

To suggest that most people who oppose immigration favour attacks on foreigners simply stifles debate on an issue that clearly affects many people ( immigration, not attacks on foreigners). Stiffling such debate allows the extremist parties to portray themselves as the only parties willing to tackle the issue

Its interesting to hear Trevor Phillips pronouncements that unlimited immigration is harming Britain.
[ON A SEPERATE NOTE It is also interesting to note the attacks on his leadership of theHuman Rights & Equal Opportunities Commission - for his management style amongst other things]

Rich158

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm half expecting by the end of this page to be post deep in an argument with someone about society, ethnic diversity, the BNP (Spen666, who once described them as a legitiment party) or something....

I'm hoping quantum mechanics are kind and greeted with the possibility. But then I guess there was a possiblity where I didn't write this at all....

The BNP are a legitimate party. I may not agree with their views as I don't agree with those of the SWP or thwe Communist party or UKIP, but all are legitimate parties and I would defend their right to exist.

However, what has the legitimacy of the BNP got to do with whether the aftermath of the death of Stephen Lawrence has changed society in Britain

A fair point, who was it that said 'I may not agree with your point of view, but I'd defend to the hilt your right to express it' or words to that effect.

The point I was trying to make is that enough people obviously identified with their viewpoint for them to get elected to local councils. That has everything to do with society in general, and our attitude towards a political party who have a history of promoting racial prejudice. iirc correctly it was implied that Stephen Lawrence was murdered due to the colour of his skin, and that the metropolitan police and CPS were branded as institutionally racist. Therefore I feel it does have a bearing on the general discussion.

DonDaddyD

It begins....

Rich158

and I'm getting out of my depth very quickly :roll:

Time to withdraw gracefully

spen666

Rich158 wrote:

...

A fair point, who was it that said 'I may not agree with your point of view, but I'd defend to the hilt your right to express it' or words to that effect.

If I could have recalled who it was I was going to use that quote in my last post

The point I was trying to make is that enough people obviously identified with their viewpoint for them to get elected to local councils. That has everything to do with society in general, and our attitude towards a political party who have a history of promoting racial prejudice. iirc correctly it was implied that Stephen Lawrence was murdered due to the colour of his skin, and that the metropolitan police and CPS were branded as institutionally racist.

I don't think the CPS were so branded

Therefore I feel it does have a bearing on the general discussion.

Stehen Lawrence was a British born person and not a foreigner or an immigrant, so the relationship between immigration and attacking foreigners doesn't seem to apply in this case.


Extremist parties get elected on low turnouts at the polls. Low turn outs often happen when people feel the existing mainstream parties do not reflect their views.

The failure of the mainstream parties to discuss matters of immigration hasa IMHO alienated potential voters and helped to cause the apathy at the polls plaing into the hands of the extremists

secretsam

Shouldn't this be on Cake Stop or a non-cycling forum? Or has this suddenly turned into the BBC or Guardian website?

Having said that, I can add that from my white, middle-class perspective, things appear to have generally improved in the last 20 years - the number of BEM role models in our society has increased, there is generally (and I stress, generally) greater acceptance of diversity of race and culture, and (on an obvious note) overt racism like the chanting you used to get at football matches (including at my club, sadly) are pretty much gone.

Damn, now I've been drawn in...

spen666

can anyone confirm if the Macpherson report did brand the CPS as institutionally racist? I know it did for the Met Police?



Anyway, back to the Stephen Lawrence case and the aftermath, has it changed Britain?

spen666

SecretSam wrote:

Shouldn't this be on Cake Stop or a non-cycling forum? Or has this suddenly turned into the BBC or Guardian website?

Having said that, I can add that from my white, middle-class perspective, things appear to have generally improved in the last 20 years - the number of BEM role models in our society has increased, there is generally (and I stress, generally) greater acceptance of diversity of race and culture, and (on an obvious note) overt racism like the chanting you used to get at football matches (including at my club, sadly) are pretty much gone.

Damn, now I've been drawn in...

I hope I read your penultimate sentence wrongly - you are surely not lamenting the end of racial chanting at your club are you? :oops:

I agree with you re the changes over the last 20 or so years- but is this due to Stephen Lawrence case, or unconnec ted with it

BTW The first black footballer to play in England was back in the 1890s for Darlington, not as many people think, Clyde Best at West Ham in the 1960/70s

discurio

i think secret sam is trying to say that sadly, there was racist chanting at his club. not missing the racial stuff. at least i hope he is.

secretsam

spen666 wrote:

I hope I read your penultimate sentence wrongly - you are surely not lamenting the end of racial chanting at your club are you? :oops:

Yes, you're reading it wrongly, and I resent the insinuation you are making.

_Brun_

DonDaddyD wrote:

It begins....

What did you expect after bringing the topic up before anyone else had mentioned it and aiming a direct accusation at the OP?

DonDaddyD

@Spen666, I would love to know your ethnic background?

Secondly no, the Stepthen Lawrence case arguably hasn't changed anything, if anything society has gotten worse/more dangerous across the UK.

I don't think that one case can become the catalyst for change but much rather multiple things have to happen.

I'm not seeing why or how the Stephen Lawrence case has anything to do with changing or improving British society. The case resonates mostly with the black community and - unless your claiming that only the British Black communities need to change for Britain to improve - Britain as a whole has to improve as a society.

Rich158

spen666 wrote:

can anyone confirm if the Macpherson report did brand the CPS as institutionally racist? I know it did for the Met Police?



Anyway, back to the Stephen Lawrence case and the aftermath, has it changed Britain?

Maybe not, damn internet :oops:

Has the Stephen Lawrence case changed Britain. I can remember when it happened, and to be honest Britain doesn't seem to be that much different to me. Possibly the Met has changed for the better, although I'm not really in a position to comment. In general attitudes seem to be the same, I hear kids using exactly the same racist derogatory terms that were common place when I was a kid, except perhaps the N word, and it saddens me, and the same attitudes towards race and immigration are still there if you look in the right places.

Unfortunately whether we like it or not, race and immigration do get lumped together. Whilst the majority of us are inteligent enough to recognise the difference there are still a few who either aren't inteligent enough to make the distinction, or deliberately lump the two together in order to justify their own viewpoint.

DonDaddyD

_Brun_ wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

It begins....

What did you expect after bringing the topic up before anyone else had mentioned it and aiming a direct accusation at the OP?

I wasn't complaining when I wrote that. Secondly Spen666 did previously describe the BNP as a legitimate party (in a previous thread) and has reinforced that stance. Something I disagree with.

I don't see it as an accusation, I see it as a factual detail of something someone previously said.

But to answer your question, I expected nothing but heated debate. Heated and hotly debated regardless of me posting "It begins..."

chuckcork

Rich158 wrote:

A fair point, who was it that said 'I may not agree with your point of view, but I'd defend to the hilt your right to express it' or words to that effect.

Usually attributed to Voltaire but that font of occassionally correct knowledge Wikipedia isn't sure of this:

"The most oft-cited Voltaire quotation is apocryphal. He is incorrectly credited with writing, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” These were not his words, but rather those of Evelyn Beatrice Hall, written under the pseudonym S. G. Tallentyre in her 1906 biographical book The Friends of Voltaire. Hall intended to summarize in her own words Voltaire's attitude towards Claude Adrien Helvétius and his controversial book De l'esprit, but her first-person expression was mistaken for an actual quotation from Voltaire. Her interpretation does capture the spirit of Voltaire’s attitude towards Helvetius; it had been said Hall's summary was inspired by a quotation found in a 1770 Voltaire letter to an Abbot le Roche, in which he was reported to have said, “I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.” Nevertheless, scholars believe there must have again been misinterpretation, as the letter does not seem to contain any such quote"

DonDaddyD

How anyone can defend racism or a persons rights to be racist and speak about or promote racism is f*cked up.

Would you defend Hitler's (yes Godwin fecking law) right to express his anti-jewish rants knowing the end result. Have any of you who are so self-righteously blind, seen the end result of a hanging? Have you taken the time to talk to a victim of a racist attack. Have you even been racially abused mentally, verbally and physically on a daily basis. If not, experience those things, then defend those rights.

Until then your ideal though largely ethically just, is flawed in my oh so humble opinion.

Try explaining to a rape victim why you're defending a person 'right' to say rape is OK, even though you don't agree with it.

Let's bring back Hamza (sp the guy with a hook in his hand) he preached about being glad the London bombings happend. I mean after all he has a right to say it, even though I don't agree with it. :roll:

roger_merriman

As a white and probably middle class male, who grew up in the country racism is a idea i've never really seen, bar dumb comments in pubs/work.

and since the area i now live in is very white even being on the edge of london. Again racism though i'm sure exists I don't see.

dilemna

spen666 wrote:

Its now several years since the death of Stephen lawrence, many expensive court proceedings, both civil and criminal have happened, as well as the MacPherson inquiry

Has any of the court cases/ inquiries made any difference to life in Britain?


clearly it affected the Lawrence family and those directly alleged to be involved, but what about society at large?

So what has sparked you off to post this topic?

Some years.......Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death just over 16 years ago. I knew the area well in Eltham. It was horrible then and I'm sure it hasn't changed.

It has been over ten years since the MacPherson report was published.

Have you seen or witnessed another racially motivated assault or murder then?

Are you doing any research into community relations or police relations with the black community?

Has it surfaced in the DailyMail chat room?

Here's the Guardian link to SL:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/lawrence

toshmund

Personally I think that possibly the problem is that in certain terms. The working class are not really represented in this country any longer. Labour are more capitalist than the Conservatives in a lot of respects - and how anyone with any Socialist views can relate to people like Mandelson, I don't know? The Conservatives just jump on the latest bandwagon, the Liberal's are pretty much irrelevent. So when some muppet, starts preaching some diatribe - certain people will possibly relate to it.

In general, mainstream politicians of any of the party's, could possibly be seen to just be "on the make" - if going by recent events is anything to go on.

Maybe there is not too much malice out there, just a confused section of society trying to figure out which voice is actually representing them. At the moment, it ain't too obvious.

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

@Spen666, I would love to know your ethnic background?

....

Ahh the racism card being played is it?

What difference does my race make? Are my views somehow correct if I am one race and wrong if I am a different race?

What my race is should be irrelevant to this debate, unless you are going to judge me on the basis of my race.

so what difference does my race make? [ Oh and BTW- you may be suprised if you know my ethnic background- its not what you may think it is]

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

[...]

I wasn't complaining when I wrote that. Secondly Spen666 did previously describe the BNP as a legitimate party (in a previous thread) and has reinforced that stance. Something I disagree with.

I don't see it as an accusation, I see it as a factual detail of something someone previously said.
......"

Check with the police, the parliamentary ombudsman, the elctoral commission etc. You will find they will all reinforce the view that the BNP are a legitimate political party. Whether you like them or not, whether you support their views or not, they are a legitimate party- at present.

Don't try to deny the truth. Campaign to change the law, but don't lie about the current status

jonnycon

The lines have been somewhat blurred here, most people I speak to are frustrated with the immigration situation, it appear there is an endless influx of immigrants into the country claiming false refuge/abusing their rights to stay etc, the country simply cannot economically sustain this so it is a real concern for the british population. The BNP have been able to harness this frustration at a seemingly valid point and captured the mood of the public, thus they are able to then promote their own ends. I hope most people would find racism of any kind distasteful. The public have, though, definitely tired of the PC doctrine constantly thrown at us. All these ingredients add support for the BNP and their ilk, this country is currently financially struggling with a massively overloaded welfare state, and some blame for this is directed at immigration. Let's hope one of the main parties can address this, I don't want to be in a a country where the BNP are a viable option.

iainment

dilemna wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Its now several years since the death of Stephen lawrence, many expensive court proceedings, both civil and criminal have happened, as well as the MacPherson inquiry

Has any of the court cases/ inquiries made any difference to life in Britain?


clearly it affected the Lawrence family and those directly alleged to be involved, but what about society at large?

So what has sparked you off to post this topic?

Some years.......Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death just over 16 years ago. I knew the area well in Eltham. It was horrible then and I'm sure it hasn't changed.

It has been over ten years since the MacPherson report was published.

Have you seen or witnessed another racially motivated assault or murder then?

Are you doing any research into community relations or police relations with the black community?

Has it surfaced in the DailyMail chat room?

Here's the Guardian link to SL:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/lawrence

I lived in Eltham from 84 to 2006. The area has changed markedly for the better. It's a mistake to think that many people in the area had any sympathy for the dross that committed the murder. If the police had followed up info given to them by locals within hours of the murder they would have made arrests within a day or two. The real problem was that this crime was not treated with any urgency by the police.

DonDaddyD

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

@Spen666, I would love to know your ethnic background?

....

Ahh the racism card being played is it?

What difference does my race make? Are my views somehow correct if I am one race and wrong if I am a different race?

What my race is should be irrelevant to this debate, unless you are going to judge me on the basis of my race.

so what difference does my race make? [ Oh and BTW- you may be suprised if you know my ethnic background- its not what you may think it is]

Actually I was just curious.

Amazing that you, who claims to remain objective over many controversial topics, is yet so willing to jump to such conclusions to form a defence.

dilemna

This thread has every potential of becoming really distasteful.