This section is a joke
Comments
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Brian B wrote:Good replies but if anybody here has seen any of my previous entries you will have seen that I a fairly realistic in my approach to doping and have stressed many times that it will never be a clean sport.
That doesent mean that every thread has to be hijacked and brought around to doping or Lance who is deemed to be the devil incarnate. I have never been a Lance fan and never will be. I surely wont be the first to say that this years racing was more exciting leading up and through the TDF with his participation though!
The purpose of this thread was to highlight the repetitive threads for doping/Armstrong and to see if anybody else agreed with me about it - which some clearly do.
Its a forum so everybody is entitled to speak their mind and express their views but I guess a lot of people like dont post here regular because it invetitabley just gets lost in the hate/doping babble.
I dont use any other Forum really so dont know the competition which is irrelevant as I was saying that it used to be so good here until went downhill.
So do you have any suggestions about what can be done to improve the level of discourse? Because complaining without offering any suggestions is not exactly constructive.
And yes, everyone is entitled to express their views. In fact, I think more people ought to start more topics and join more discussions. Because the more people join in, the more diluted the bickering becomes. So a message to the lurkers :- If you don't like the things being discussed here, please feel free to chip in and steer the conversation in another direction. It'll be more productive than complaining.0 -
Actually I have to agree a wee bit with Brian. I used to contribute way more until I learned LA was coming back. probably just because I couldnt be arsed arguing with people! Now I come on to read and play PTP. It does annoy me the negativity some times, all that negative stuff about Cav, the LA arguments...................but then, that is the hot topic of the sport at the moment like it or not (not in my case)Robert Millar for knighthood0
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To be fair to Brian it's not good enough just to say "Well you contribute something then".
The problem is that I could start a thread about cycling goats in Andorra and it would still somehow descend into a squabble about Lance doping.
I have my views on this matter and respect that other people have differing views. I expect to see these views aired on a thread that either discusses Lance or doping. Not on my cycling goats thread (dunno where that came from).
This is why I wanted our own version of Godwin's law.Scottish and British...and a bit French0 -
dulldave wrote:To be fair to Brian it's not good enough just to say "Well you contribute something then".
The problem is that I could start a thread about cycling goats in Andorra and it would still somehow descend into a squabble about Lance doping.
I have my views on this matter and respect that other people have differing views. I expect to see these views aired on a thread that either discusses Lance or doping. Not on my cycling goats thread (dunno where that came from).
This is why I wanted our own version of Godwin's law.
Absolutely spot on....
This is the real problem...most threads get hijacked...0 -
That's rubbish though. Just look at the section now and on the first page there are just two threads with Armstrong related content.0
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Actually, make that three, the Lemond thread has some.0
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andyp wrote:Actually, make that three, the Lemond thread has some.
Andy, youve been around this forum for an eternity...your one of true orginals...way before I ventured onto C+....and I distinctly remember me and you having disagreements about Procycling...but never was it hostile..we werent on 'different sides'.....and on the other hand youve offered much help and info to me over the years..
but thats what it should be all about?...surely you must see an awful change?..I certianly have!
Its the bitterness on this section thats so alarming?0 -
It's the same every year though Richy, come the Tour there is an influx of new members and, as is common on many internet forums these days, many of them get argumentative quickly. Factor in Armstrong, the most divisive man the sport has ever known, and it gets quite heated.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, that isn't Brian's complaint. He's not happy because there is a tendency to talk about drugs amongst the regulars. Which is a bit like complaining that it gets a bit hot in a sauna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... in_cycling0 -
andyp wrote:It's the same every year though Richy, come the Tour there is an influx of new members and, as is common on many internet forums these days, many of them get argumentative quickly. Factor in Armstrong, the most divisive man the sport has ever known, and it gets quite heated.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, that isn't Brian's complaint. He's not happy because there is a tendency to talk about drugs amongst the regulars. Which is a bit like complaining that it gets a bit hot in a sauna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... in_cycling
But Sauna very good after long training relax muscles. But op is right, much too much talk about doping. is better to forgive and forget.0 -
RICHYBOYcp wrote:dulldave wrote:To be fair to Brian it's not good enough just to say "Well you contribute something then".
The problem is that I could start a thread about cycling goats in Andorra and it would still somehow descend into a squabble about Lance doping.
I have my views on this matter and respect that other people have differing views. I expect to see these views aired on a thread that either discusses Lance or doping. Not on my cycling goats thread (dunno where that came from).
This is why I wanted our own version of Godwin's law.
Absolutely spot on....
This is the real problem...most threads get hijacked...
+1
I'm new on this forum, so know no different but every single thread ends the same way.
It's not that me (or anyone else) is being naive about doping, it's that I don't want to spend all the time reading about a hobby in a negative way. I don't read the Daily Mail after all.
This whole country (not targeted at this forum) is just a mass of moaning, negative people these days. It really gets me down (ironically). Why can't we talk about positves in the same manner and enthusiasm?http://www.KOWONO.com - Design-Led home furniture and accessories.0 -
I'm positive.... that LA was on drugs. :twisted:
Anyway now LA has gone back into hibernation till next summer we can get back to the racing, so that means the Veulta, Worlds, Lombardy etc. And I suspect a few drugs, transfer rumours to boot. Plenty to talk about, not sure all of it will be positive mind, afterall this is a sport run by the UCI :roll:0 -
Not sure what most of you expected during the tour period... and to be honest out side of the tour i don't think its been so bad of late.
From my experience, the people who seem to be turning every post onto a LA subject are the Pro Lance camp. They seem to get their knickers in twist over comments that are not even directed at their messiah. I've actually found that those that are not fond of the chap only pipe up when provoked and most of time can't arsed to talk about him.
Anyways, i don't think its so bad... a bit dull at times perhaps, but thats due to lack of topics between races..0 -
July is often like this, the forum has more than its average number of slanging matches, but then again it attracts more than the average number of posters etc. Now that Armstrong has disappeared, things should calm down a touch.0
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The problem is there's no moderation on the forum. Obviously, we don't want censorship but there needs to be some "organizing" or housekeeping from the moderators. If a post is completely unrelated or "hijacks" the thread, the moderators should have the right to split it into a new, separate thread (with explanation). And people posting here should have the right to request that for particular posts.0
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IMHO, the pro lance brigade are just as responsible as the Lance "haters". Furthermore, I don't actually think this forum is that bad, topics titles such as "Put all your anti lance stuff here" (or whatever it was) do not help one iota. Furthermore, the pro lance brigade are too quick to cast everyone as "haters" FWIW, I think that Lance probably used similar preparation as many of his rivals, I also think he bullied Simioni, but I don't hate the guy.
Sure doping is a huge topic, but if you want to keep your head in the sand then go to another forum. Personally I think it's nice that most people are realists about the subject.
Finally, by all means, moan about "regulars", but remember that they are are probably "regulars" because they like this forum, and whilst you yourself may not, The "regulars" have as much right to a forum they like as you, and presumably, you like other sections of bike radar. So why not leave pro race to the "regulars"?You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Personally I find all the Lance extremism a bore... people who 'love' him and people who 'hate' him are equally hijacking and lowering the potential quality of a lot of the threads.
I'm sure too many people are pigeonholing everybody into the two love and hate camps as well and missing the point that the vast majority of people couldnt care less either way.
Unless you've got your head in the sand then we all know Lance is a abrasive character at best, we know how he must have control and how his 'teddy goes out of the pram' in no uncertain fashion over any issue that doesn't suit him at the time, racing or otherwise. There, that's that one done, end of.
We also all know that he claims to have won 7 tdf's completely 'clean' and beat everybody else for 7 years, including many high profile riders that have since been caught for doping or admitted to it. So, yes it looks very dodgy to assume that he was 'so much better than them' that he could still beat them all even when they had the terrific advantage of being doped. But who knows? Right, no more news on the doping, so thats that one done, end of.
BUT... I don't care for the love / hate.... and neither will a lot of other people, so I agree that a lot of the threads turn into 'heard it all before', nit picking, non-event rubbish that end in lots of emoticons and pictures of beer bottles and this doesn't make for much quality debate or reading. I agree with the start of thread that it is a shame. (...cue the hilarious sod to post a pic of beer bottle and some smilies...)
So, this thread did seem like a worthwhile thread for the guy to have started to me, I see where the guy was coming from, but nothing will change cos so many people don't want to listen or accept other people's point of view on these forums, they just have to say something even if it adds nothing (no doubt like this hasn't). But, this is the shame, cos the Pro Race section could be so much improved, and it has definitely gone downhill IMO too.0 -
mfin wrote:Personally I find all the Lance extremism a bore... people who 'love' him and people who 'hate' him are equally hijacking and lowering the potential quality of a lot of the threads.
So, this thread did seem like a worthwhile thread for the guy to have started to me, I see where the guy was coming from, but nothing will change cos so many people don't want to listen or accept other people's point of view on these forums, they just have to say something even if it adds nothing (no doubt like this hasn't). But, this is the shame, cos the Pro Race section could be so much improved, and it has definitely gone downhill IMO too.
two points here first one i agree with on the majority not giving a shit either way on Lance take him or leave him we all know what he is like
second point re : the forum going downhill I mean is it such a big deal if the forum is full of posters bickering and disagreering thats life folks agree and disagree all the time why should an online discussion group be any different. Ok i know the anti lance brigade are overpowering obsessives but hey what would you prefer a forum where everybody agreed all the time and said after you sir after every post ? Accept it for what it is, after all its not that important in the big scheme of things.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:second point re : the forum going downhill I mean is it such a big deal if the forum is full of posters bickering and disagreering thats life folks agree and disagree all the time why should an online discussion group be any different. Ok i know the anti lance brigade are overpowering obsessives but hey what would you prefer a forum where everybody agreed all the time and said after you sir after every post ? Accept it for what it is, after all its not that important in the big scheme of things.
That's not quite the point I'm making there... no problem people disagreeing, of course thats dead normal and is a natural part of discussion. But, its the way they do it. Some don't offer a rational word of thought but have to say they disagree with naff all explanation and just take a covered pop at people. Other's fill the thread with valueless junk and back-slapping wit (shouldn't call it wit, cos often its not funny, its like listening to the worst comedians ever, well, their regular forum mates probably find them funny - but look at the countless 'un-classics' you can read on here clogging things up to make a blocked drain of many threads) that might make them feel good between themselves but it polutes the threads and takes them off topic. I've got no problem with humour (I myself am a fully trained idiot), but most of it can't be described by the word.
Its a shame cos there are a lot of well informed, intellligent people on here and ironically some of them are people who are doing the above.0 -
mfin wrote:Moray Gub wrote:second point re : the forum going downhill I mean is it such a big deal if the forum is full of posters bickering and disagreering thats life folks agree and disagree all the time why should an online discussion group be any different. Ok i know the anti lance brigade are overpowering obsessives but hey what would you prefer a forum where everybody agreed all the time and said after you sir after every post ? Accept it for what it is, after all its not that important in the big scheme of things.
That's not quite the point I'm making there... no problem people disagreeing, of course thats dead normal and is a natural part of discussion. But, its the way they do it. Some don't offer a rational word of thought but have to say they disagree with naff all explanation and just take a covered pop at people. Other's fill the thread with valueless junk and back-slapping wit (shouldn't call it wit, cos often its not funny, its like listening to the worst comedians ever, well, their regular forum mates probably find them funny - but look at the countless 'un-classics' you can read on here clogging things up to make a blocked drain of many threads) that might make them feel good between themselves but it polutes the threads and takes them off topic. I've got no problem with humour (I myself am a fully trained idiot), but most of it can't be described by the word.
Its a shame cos there are a lot of well informed, intellligent people on here and ironically some of them are people who are doing the above.
Well said...your 2 posts here convey what needs to be said in an intelligent thought out manner.....maybe if the 'regulars' (as one called themselves) listen and take heed then the place might enjoy a wider participation?.0 -
My take on everything.
I've been on here since the old C+ days. I've seen a few of the other Pro cycling forums around and I still think this is the best of the bunch. I'll summarize the others:
Cyclingnews - busier than here. Split into two parts with doping issues dealt separately. It's this part that's the main problem - loads of website bulls**ters pretending that they know what's going on, pointing the finger at anyone who takes their fancy. The other part is more infected by Lance/no-Lance squabbles than here.
Cyclingforums - was destroyed long ago by a poster called Flyer - imagine Aurelio without the facts and then turned up to eleven.
Veloriders - a seemingly civilized site, but mainly devoted to UK racing.
Cyclechat - seems good but not as busy as here - for example I didn't see talk of the Tours of Poland and Portugal (isn't one stage of that a basterd)
On here I think we have a lot of well informed enthusiasts and when July comes around they're patient and polite in answering the questions of the noobs. There's also no real one-upmanship as far as "I've raced at this level have you" type repostes are concerned. (In my opinion the most knowledgeable person on here is Afx who has never raced)
OK, we have our 'characters'. There's Aurelio/BikingBernie who posts the same old stuff about LA that we've heard 50 times before (why does he bother, LA is just a bike rider, not worth an obsession). I feel most posters on here are fairly ambivalent towords LA, but rather he didn't get so much press.
Aurelio/Bernie is clearly also someone who just likes arguing on the internet and in dennisn he's found a kindred spirit. But both stay to the relevant threads and stay on topic on the other ones - unlike other sites.
Other posters have their quirks like Frenchfighter posting his photos, IainF with his scouring of the sub-continent media and avalon with his random insults. The likes of 'Vino' will go away if ignored.
Plus we have Pro Tour Pundit - even if I'm having a lousy season (damn you Evans)
In summary - this is pretty good forum. LA is always going to be a heated topic, but it can be ignored a certain amount.
Did you read all of that? If so, get a life.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Do you people sit and watch television programs you dislike or do you change the channel.
There is always going to be some snapperhead that throws in some rubbish that has nothing to do with the thread topic. Just ignore it and move on. To complain about it is futile.
Seriously how hard is it to skip a couple of posts? Like some others have said...
Quit whining and contribute. At least that way the decent responses should out number the rubbish. To stop contributing is in some way contributing to the rubbish ratio.
Just my 2 cents.
Carry On.0 -
Quality post Rich. Well put.Contador is the Greatest0
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+1 for Rich, especially the bit about me being the most knowledgeable person here
(I really doubt that though!)
Also, I'm guessing no-one here used to take part in Usenet discussions back in ye olde days of yore? Like late-nineties, early 2000s. Where moderation and self-censorship was a completely unknown entity. Seriously, if you get offended by the arguing here, you would have been reduced to a gibbering wreck on Usenet. This place is like kindergarten.0 -
afx237vi wrote:+1 for Rich, especially the bit about me being the most knowledgeable person here
(I really doubt that though!)
Also, I'm guessing no-one here used to take part in Usenet discussions back in ye olde days of yore? Like late-nineties, early 2000s. Where moderation and self-censorship was a completely unknown entity. Seriously, if you get offended by the arguing here, you would have been reduced to a gibbering wreck on Usenet. This place is like kindergarten.
..depends which one - uk.rec.cycling was very well behaved. Top-posting was about the worst crime anyone ever committed. rec.bicycles.racing was always a bit wilder, but you were scared to post on rec.bicycles.tech unless you had about 20 years experience as pro mechanic... and even then jobst would shoot you down...
Personally I just can't be bothered with most of it anymore - I just cruise on through here once in a while and ignore the dross.
Cheers, Andy0 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:afx237vi wrote:Also, I'm guessing no-one here used to take part in Usenet discussions back in ye olde days of yore? Like late-nineties, early 2000s. Where moderation and self-censorship was a completely unknown entity. Seriously, if you get offended by the arguing here, you would have been reduced to a gibbering wreck on Usenet. This place is like kindergarten.
..depends which one - uk.rec.cycling was very well behaved. Top-posting was about the worst crime anyone ever committed. rec.bicycles.racing was always a bit wilder, but you were scared to post on rec.bicycles.tech unless you had about 20 years experience as pro mechanic... and even then jobst would shoot you down...
Personally I just can't be bothered with most of it anymore - I just cruise on through here once in a while and ignore the dross.
Cheers, Andy
Quite right too. Top-posters should be lined up and shot at dawn! Dastardly people. I used to hang out in the music groups, especially alt.music.radiohead, where an argument would break out if anyone mentioned Radiohead. Any other topic was OK, but Radiohead was virtually off limits. Good times...0 -
afx237vi wrote:+1 for Rich, especially the bit about me being the most knowledgeable person here
(I really doubt that though!)
I doubt it too
I had noticed that during the Tour it was much harder to get a discussion about the racing going.
Though that was probably as much to do with the lack of the racing as much as anything else. There was certainly more discussion about what was occuring off the road than on which was a shame.
Bring on the classics again! Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0
