Wonder How Lance Feels?

Smokin Joe

I don't think Contador would agree that he shared a team with Lance, neither would most other observers. He won the tour on his own, with even his own DS refusing to talk to him.

dennisn

Monty Dog wrote:

Well said Smokin' - sadly I don't think that it'll made a shred of difference - the accolites simply won't have any said against his saintliness. Sadly, most weren't around to remember an arrogant upstart, who failed to achieve high GC positions on the GTs he entered and was nowhere near his contemporaries in terms of 1-day race wins

To be honest I don't think either side of this "argument / discussion" has won a single convert to the "other" side. Each side seems to view the other as the "dark side". Could it be that somewhere in the middle the truth lies? Or is there NO middle ground? No chance that both sides are wrong about some things? Not even the remotest possibility that what we have here is simply an imperfect man? No more no less?

finchy

I've said this at least 50 times on pro-race forum, but I'll say it again here - so what if he did dope during the 90's and the first half of this decade? If he didn't great, if he did, then it would have been to win against a load of other dopers. I attach a lot more blame to the authorities who allowed this to go on.

That said, it would have been nice to have heard LA come out just once, and tell the truth about doping in cycling - "yeah, this sport is riddled with cheats".

Soni

Smokin Joe wrote:

Soni wrote:

Also, take a read of this pathetic article here:-

http://www.arpuerta.com/040917.html

Correct me if i'm wrong here guys, but is it so hard to believe that miracles CAN AND DO happen??
I.......

You are wrong. Miracles do not happen, unless you believe in bogeymen that is. There is a rational explanation for everything, as Dr Ferrari would no doubt confirm.

And I find it amusing that you start this thread saying that Trek should have used the guy who finished second loser in the Tour de France to advertise their bikes rather than the winner, then take umbridge because not everyone worships the ground he walks on like you do.

And can people stop trying to send everyone on a guilt trip because Lance had cancer and recovered? We still don't have to like him because we are judging him on his behaviour as a cyclist, not his alleged sainthood.

Emm excuse me, i wasn't putting people on a guilt trip mentioning about his cancer, i mentioned about the cancer so people can see that for Lance to be clear for this amount of time after being diagnosed with a disease like cancer which had spread to his lungs and brain, then this is surely a miracle, and if he has pulled through something like this then why can't he also have come back and win the tour several times in a row and become a better cyclist afterwards.......as i consider the recovery from his illness to be a miracle and therefore it could be another miracle and not due to illegal substances why he's become a better cyclist.

Next time before throwing your toys out of your pram you might want to read things first!

Smokin Joe

Maybe those miracles explain everything then Soni. He was able to wave his wand and turn the water in his bidon to EPO before a climb, then back to water again before it was tested

CyclingBantam

Soni wrote:

Furthermore, if i was being accused of doping and my friend doctor was being accused of assisting me, i think i would want to rip the head of the shoulders of the scandalous asswipes that were putting it around....

Also, has Armstrong ever been prosecuted? There i rest my case, if it isn't beyond reasonable doubt then there is no case...

Is OJ Innocent as well?

This will com across as patronising and it really isn't meant to but, try reading up a bit on Armstrong. Objectively and using differing source, not just what Lance puts out there. You may then find out some interesting things. I get a bit sick of this "Lance is Great" vs "Lance is evil". There will be a middle ground and anyone who can't seee the good and bad things he has done is letting their views cloud reason.

P.s. Currently, Lance is not even close to Bertie in relation to GT success. Didn't lance also say Bertie would have beaten him in '06?

takethehighroad

I know where the middle ground is, but with someone who polarizes opinion as much as Armstrong does I can see the extreme views people hold.

The fanboys and the haters both wheel out the same arguments everytime, almost in the same order, and it's getting quite tedious now.

Myself, I'm more on the side of not liking Lance, purely for the fact that he often enforced the Omerta which existed in the sport, and Simeoni and Bassons and Lemond found out what happens when you piss in Lance's pool.

I'm not saying he should have embarked on a Vaughters style crusade, because his job back then was winning Tours de France, but the way he conducted himself often left a bitter taste in the mouth.

bigflangesmallsprocket

I can see that recovering from a potentially fatal condition can change your perspective on life. Some may become a lot more focused on goals than before, and Lance may very well be one of these people. There are people who are obsessives and normally they might be considered eccentric at best, or mentally unbalanced at worst. However, occasionally these peoples obsessions actually lead to them becoming unusually successful in their particular interest/pursuit. I think to even want to ride the Tour as many times as Lance did, never mind win it may well put Lance in this category and possibly explain the behaviour that some complain about, which goes with the territory of that kind of obsession. I'm not saying I approve of it though.

I wasn't previously aware of Lances predominance over Contador in the Astana teams ranks which makes his win an even more astounding achievement. I am reminded of Hainault (Hinaults? you know who I mean) and Lemond, though obviously a different story.

dennisn

bigflangesmallsprocket wrote:

I can see that recovering from a potentially fatal condition can change your perspective on life. Some may become a lot more focused on goals than before, and Lance may very well be one of these people. There are people who are obsessives and normally they might be considered eccentric at best, or mentally unbalanced at worst. However, occasionally these peoples obsessions actually lead to them becoming unusually successful in their particular interest/pursuit. I think to even want to ride the Tour as many times as Lance did, never mind win it may well put Lance in this category and possibly explain the behaviour that some complain about, which goes with the territory of that kind of obsession. I'm not saying I approve of it though.

I wasn't previously aware of Lances predominance over Contador in the Astana teams ranks which makes his win an even more astounding achievement. I am reminded of Hainault (Hinaults? you know who I mean) and Lemond, though obviously a different story.

There are more than a few people who have ridden the tour more than Lance and NEVER won it. Are they obsessive / compulsive about it? Quite possibly. Are they all
like Lance? Some are, some aren't. Whether you think Lance is an egotistical b*stard
or great guy he's not the only egotistical b*stard or great guy out there. Why can't a lesser known rider be just like him or his direct opposite? They didn't break the mold when they made Lance. It's still in use. People are out there in all walks of life who are egotistical b*stards or great guys depending on your viewpoint.

avalon

Soni wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

Soni wrote:

Also, take a read of this pathetic article here:-

http://www.arpuerta.com/040917.html

Correct me if i'm wrong here guys, but is it so hard to believe that miracles CAN AND DO happen??
I.......

You are wrong. Miracles do not happen, unless you believe in bogeymen that is. There is a rational explanation for everything, as Dr Ferrari would no doubt confirm.

And I find it amusing that you start this thread saying that Trek should have used the guy who finished second loser in the Tour de France to advertise their bikes rather than the winner, then take umbridge because not everyone worships the ground he walks on like you do.

And can people stop trying to send everyone on a guilt trip because Lance had cancer and recovered? We still don't have to like him because we are judging him on his behaviour as a cyclist, not his alleged sainthood.

Emm excuse me, i wasn't putting people on a guilt trip mentioning about his cancer, i mentioned about the cancer so people can see that for Lance to be clear for this amount of time after being diagnosed with a disease like cancer which had spread to his lungs and brain, then this is surely a miracle, and if he has pulled through something like this then why can't he also have come back and win the tour several times in a row and become a better cyclist afterwards

.......as i consider the recovery from his illness to be a miracle and therefore it could be another miracle and not due to illegal substances why he's become a better cyclist.

Next time before throwing your toys out of your pram you might want to read things first!

Bet you believe in god too eh.
P.S. The lower case g is deliberate.

avalon

BenBlyth wrote:

Soni wrote:

Furthermore, if i was being accused of doping and my friend doctor was being accused of assisting me, i think i would want to rip the head of the shoulders of the scandalous asswipes that were putting it around....

Also, has Armstrong ever been prosecuted? There i rest my case, if it isn't beyond reasonable doubt then there is no case...

Is OJ Innocent as well?

This will com across as patronising and it really isn't meant to but, try reading up a bit on Armstrong. Objectively and using differing source, not just what Lance puts out there. You may then find out some interesting things. I get a bit sick of this "Lance is Great" vs "Lance is evil". There will be a middle ground and anyone who can't seee the good and bad things he has done is letting their views cloud reason.

P.s. Currently, Lance is not even close to Bertie in relation to GT success

. Didn't lance also say Bertie would have beaten him in '06?

Read, "I was juiced and he would still have beat me; He uses an M&S juice"
Armstrong doesn't do compliments.

Soni

avalon wrote:

Soni wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

Soni wrote:

Also, take a read of this pathetic article here:-

http://www.arpuerta.com/040917.html

Correct me if i'm wrong here guys, but is it so hard to believe that miracles CAN AND DO happen??
I.......

You are wrong. Miracles do not happen, unless you believe in bogeymen that is. There is a rational explanation for everything, as Dr Ferrari would no doubt confirm.

And I find it amusing that you start this thread saying that Trek should have used the guy who finished second loser in the Tour de France to advertise their bikes rather than the winner, then take umbridge because not everyone worships the ground he walks on like you do.

And can people stop trying to send everyone on a guilt trip because Lance had cancer and recovered? We still don't have to like him because we are judging him on his behaviour as a cyclist, not his alleged sainthood.

Emm excuse me, i wasn't putting people on a guilt trip mentioning about his cancer, i mentioned about the cancer so people can see that for Lance to be clear for this amount of time after being diagnosed with a disease like cancer which had spread to his lungs and brain, then this is surely a miracle, and if he has pulled through something like this then why can't he also have come back and win the tour several times in a row and become a better cyclist afterwards

.......as i consider the recovery from his illness to be a miracle and therefore it could be another miracle and not due to illegal substances why he's become a better cyclist.

Next time before throwing your toys out of your pram you might want to read things first!

Bet you believe in god too eh.
P.S. The lower case g is deliberate.

Yes I do actually but this thread isn't about God.
P.S The upper case G is deliberate.

Soni

dennisn wrote:

bigflangesmallsprocket wrote:

I can see that recovering from a potentially fatal condition can change your perspective on life. Some may become a lot more focused on goals than before, and Lance may very well be one of these people. There are people who are obsessives and normally they might be considered eccentric at best, or mentally unbalanced at worst. However, occasionally these peoples obsessions actually lead to them becoming unusually successful in their particular interest/pursuit. I think to even want to ride the Tour as many times as Lance did, never mind win it may well put Lance in this category and possibly explain the behaviour that some complain about, which goes with the territory of that kind of obsession. I'm not saying I approve of it though.

I wasn't previously aware of Lances predominance over Contador in the Astana teams ranks which makes his win an even more astounding achievement. I am reminded of Hainault (Hinaults? you know who I mean) and Lemond, though obviously a different story.

There are more than a few people who have ridden the tour more than Lance and NEVER won it. Are they obsessive / compulsive about it? Quite possibly. Are they all
like Lance? Some are, some aren't. Whether you think Lance is an egotistical b*stard
or great guy he's not the only egotistical b*stard or great guy out there. Why can't a lesser known rider be just like him or his direct opposite? They didn't break the mold when they made Lance. It's still in use. People are out there in all walks of life who are egotistical b*stards or great guys depending on your viewpoint.

There may have been more people who have ridden the tour and never won, there may be others out there that are arrogant (if you think Lance is), however Lance has the complete package, thats why some riders in the tour have never been heard of and Lance is a household name, Lance stands out from the rest because he is the complete package and real deal.

Look at Michael Jackson for example, he became famous initially because of his superb vocals and cute looks as a kid, however as he grew older, he started to market himself, some would say he became weird, however i personally believe he marketed and shaped himself into that person deliberately to be different to the rest, he wasn't stupid, he new what he needed to do to stand out from the crowd and become the most famous person in the world and he did it.

However, whether you like it or not, some of the most unfortunate, traumatising, and unplanned things to ever happen to Lance Armstrong are also the things that increased his popularity and fame.

There may be other riders our there that can ride like lance, there may be better climbers, sprinters, other winners, however they haven't had the same story as Lance Armstrong and they may be grateful that they haven't had to experience those unplanned events, however they will also never be as popular or as well known as Lance Armstrong....

mercsport

Soni wrote:

blah , blah ,.. he wasn't stupid, he new what he needed to do to stand out from the crowd and become the most famous person in the world and he did it.

However, whether you like it or not, some of the most unfortunate, traumatising, and unplanned things to ever happen to Lance Armstrong are also the things that increased his popularity and fame.

There may be other riders our there that can ride like lance, there may be better climbers, sprinters, other winners, however they haven't had the same story as Lance Armstrong and they may be grateful that they haven't had to experience those unplanned events, however they will also never be as popular or as well known as Lance Armstrong....

Whither Aurelio when we need him ?

O.K. , then , 'BikingBernie' ,.... help !!

dennisn

mercsport wrote:

Soni wrote:

dennisn wrote:

[quote=" blah , blah ,.. he wasn't stupid, he new what he needed to do to stand out from the crowd and become the most famous person in the world and he did it.

However, whether you like it or not, some of the most unfortunate, traumatising, and unplanned things to ever happen to Lance Armstrong are also the things that increased his popularity and fame.

There may be other riders our there that can ride like lance, there may be better climbers, sprinters, other winners, however they haven't had the same story as Lance Armstrong and they may be grateful that they haven't had to experience those unplanned events, however they will also never be as popular or as well known as Lance Armstrong....

Whither Aurelio when we need him ?

O.K. , 'BikingBernie' ,.... Help !!

Hey now. I didn't write that. That was a response to something I wrote. For Gods sake
don't sic Bernie on me. Not Bernie, please. Have mercy. Show a little compassion. You'll have to live with it the rest of your life.

Anonymous

Lance 7

Contador 2

Seems berties got a lot of catching up to do, pity he spat his dummy out really.

mercsport

dennisn wrote:

mercsport wrote:

Soni wrote:

dennisn wrote:

[quote=" blah , blah ,.. he wasn't stupid, he new what he needed to do to stand out from the crowd and become the most famous person in the world and he did it.

However, whether you like it or not, some of the most unfortunate, traumatising, and unplanned things to ever happen to Lance Armstrong are also the things that increased his popularity and fame.

There may be other riders our there that can ride like lance, there may be better climbers, sprinters, other winners, however they haven't had the same story as Lance Armstrong and they may be grateful that they haven't had to experience those unplanned events, however they will also never be as popular or as well known as Lance Armstrong....

Whither Aurelio when we need him ?

O.K. , 'BikingBernie' ,.... Help !!

Hey now. I didn't write that. That was a response to something I wrote. For Gods sake
don't sic Bernie on me. Not Bernie, please. Have mercy. Show a little compassion. You'll have to live with it the rest of your life.

I'll live with it . :roll:

Clearly , a re-education programmme is called for on this thread to sow the seeds of doubt into the permeable minds of Lance's coterie of fans . I know of no one better suited to the task than 'Aurelio' -as was -aka 'BikingBernie' .

Unfortunately , it appears B'Bernie doesn't drop by Cake Stop too often . So , for the time being at least , it looks like you , Dennis , and the others , are blessed and will be spared his merciless interjections . Pity . :evil:

redddraggon

Soni wrote:

There may have been more people who have ridden the tour and never won, there may be others out there that are arrogant (if you think Lance is), however Lance has the complete package,

You really don't know anything about Cycling do you?

Lance hasn't got anywhere near the full package.

He's only won the most insignificant classic, not the proper classics like MSR, PR, RvV, Lombardy etc etc. He's only won one tour too...

Contador has got more of a complete package than Lance. 2xTour, 1xGiro, 1xVuelta.....

dmclite wrote:

Lance 7

Contador 2

Seems berties got a lot of catching up to do, pity he spat his dummy out really.

I think you'll find the Grand Tour scores are:

Lance 7
Contador 4

Contador could easily match that in a couple of years.

dennisn

mercsport wrote:

dennisn wrote:

mercsport wrote:

Soni wrote:

dennisn wrote:

[quote=" blah , blah ,.. he wasn't stupid, he new what he needed to do to stand out from the crowd and become the most famous person in the world and he did it.

However, whether you like it or not, some of the most unfortunate, traumatising, and unplanned things to ever happen to Lance Armstrong are also the things that increased his popularity and fame.

There may be other riders our there that can ride like lance, there may be better climbers, sprinters, other winners, however they haven't had the same story as Lance Armstrong and they may be grateful that they haven't had to experience those unplanned events, however they will also never be as popular or as well known as Lance Armstrong....

Whither Aurelio when we need him ?

O.K. , 'BikingBernie' ,.... Help !!

Hey now. I didn't write that. That was a response to something I wrote. For Gods sake
don't sic Bernie on me. Not Bernie, please. Have mercy. Show a little compassion. You'll have to live with it the rest of your life.

I'll live with it . :roll:

Clearly , a re-education programmme is called for on this thread to sow the seeds of doubt into the permeable minds of Lance's coterie of fans . I know of no one better suited to the task than 'Aurelio' -as was -aka 'BikingBernie' .

Unfortunately , it appears B'Bernie doesn't drop by Cake Stop too often . So , for the time being at least , it looks like you , Dennis , and the others , are blessed and will be spared his merciless interjections . Pity . :evil:

Please we're begging you. Not "Biking Bernie". There is only so much a man can take.
It's cruel and unusual punishment. Akin to torture. A man could go mad, mad I say, just trying to read his posts(lots of big words)(no pictures).

frenchfighter

redddraggon wrote:

Contador has got more of a complete package than Lance. 2xTour, 1xGiro, 1xVuelta.....

Contador could easily match that in a couple of years.

Check, check.

Triple Crown, yeah he has one of those.

mercsport

dennisn wrote:

Please we're begging you. Not "Biking Bernie". There is only so much a man can take.
It's cruel and unusual punishment. Akin to torture. A man could go mad, mad I say, just trying to read his posts(lots of big words)(no pictures).

Oh , come on , he's a pussycat . 8)

Should you go and arouse him from his torpor in the 'Pro-Race' forum and bring him here , where he's needed , I'm sure if you ask him nicely he'll supply the pictures to illustrate the big words too . :P

Jez mon

dmclite wrote:

Lance 7

Contador 2

Seems berties got a lot of catching up to do, pity he spat his dummy out really.

Tours won at the age of 26

Contador 2

Lance 0.

Grand Tours won at the age of 26

Contador 4

Lance 0.

Any questions??

Soni

redddraggon wrote:

Soni wrote:

There may have been more people who have ridden the tour and never won, there may be others out there that are arrogant (if you think Lance is), however Lance has the complete package,

You really don't know anything about Cycling do you?

Lance hasn't got anywhere near the full package.

He's only won the most insignificant classic, not the proper classics like MSR, PR, RvV, Lombardy etc etc. He's only won one tour too...

Contador has got more of a complete package than Lance. 2xTour, 1xGiro, 1xVuelta.....

dmclite wrote:

Lance 7

Contador 2

Seems berties got a lot of catching up to do, pity he spat his dummy out really.

I think you'll find the Grand Tour scores are:

Lance 7
Contador 4

Contador could easily match that in a couple of years.

How can you possibly say that Lance has only won one tour? How many Tour De Frances has he won? :?

redddraggon

Soni wrote:

How can you possibly say that Lance has only won one tour? How many Tour De Frances has he won? :?

He ain't won the Giro or Vuelta so he's only won one Grand Tour

edhornby

I'm no fan of LA or bertie either... but I will say this....

If Contador hadn't been excluded via his team from the TDF, he'd be on 3 french gongs and no vuelta or giro

to win the tour de france you have to base a full season around the single race

frenchfighter

edhornby wrote:

I'm no fan of LA or bertie either... but I will say this....

If Contador hadn't been excluded via his team from the TDF, he'd be on 3 french gongs and no vuelta or giro

to win the tour de france you have to base a full season around the single race

Maybe that is what Lance did, but then we have no respect for him because that is all he did.

Look at Contador's palmares - he wins races all year round.

He also won the Giro and Vuelta in the same year.

Soni

The problem we have here is not everybody is a fan of Lance and not everybody is a fan of Contador, everybody is different and what one person likes another doesn't, which is fair enough and completely understandable, if we were all the same with our likes and dislikes the world would be a very boring place.

However, there is more to being a fan of somebody, liking and supporting somebody, than just their achievements.

Its a good job you Contador fans don't support football teams, you'd be chopping and changing every week!

OK, so Armstrong might not have won the Giro, but was this ever his intention? I don't personally think so....

However, what charity work for disease awareness/prevention has Contador done? This is a genuine question, i don't know much about Contador as he doesn't interest me....

The above is just one of the things that attracts me to Lance, his determination to succeed in world awareness about Cancer.

Secondly, Lance really motivates me, he motivates me to get up in the morning and get out on my bike, which unfortunately, Contador just doesn't do.

Lance has also motivated me to loose 3 stone in weight.

He has also given me a sport/hobby to become interested in.

I also like Lance's personality, he is a great spokesman, and so what if some of you believe he can be arrogant, we can all come accross as arrogant at times.

There are so many variables involved that attract somebody to somebody else, and for me i like Lance, not Contador.

Nothing you Contador fanboys can say will ever shift my loyality from Lance, and i don't intend to even attempt to get you to like Lance either...

However, is it such a great shame to like somebody who gives people hope, motivation, and some enjoyment out of life?

frenchfighter

I appreciate why you like him, even though I think pretty much the opposite to you on almost every point. There is no point me debating the point. I would just say that it is funny you say that there is more to someone than their performance - the point with Lance is that most things other than his performance (which I personally don't like or respect) are reasons to dislike him.

Google Contador and read up about him - I think you may like him a lot. I would also read some of the Lance/Contador threads on the pro race forums. I think you will be VERY surprised at some of the things you read about Lance (unless like Lance's Lions, you willingly choose to ignore them). For example, read about Lance's conduct towards Contador in this years Tour de France - despicable behaviour, totally un-sporting too.

bigflangesmallsprocket

Most of my experiences of Lance have been through the limited view of glimpses of the Tour on terrestial television, most of which seems to show a veneration and not going into the behind the scenes stories very deeply, if at all. I've had to base my comments on a large extent, to that and on those I see on threads like this which are interesting to me as I see opinions of pro and anti Lance race fans more knowledgeable than myself, as well as race news I do read. I'm neither a fan nor detractor, but respect his achievements for what they are.

I wasn't stating that he IS an obsessive, merely putting the idea as a maybe for actions attributed to him, neither saying accusations are true or false! I did actually agree though with the poster who replied directly to that post regarding excuses/reasons for behaviours...how you interpret my comments may be determined by your own pro/anti Lance viewpoint, as I was trying to be neutral and not judge either way! You get goodies and baddies in life, and as mentioned, some may choose to give a public persona for publicity reasons, some may see their success as humbling and go out of their way to remain.erm..humble, others affect a superior and dominant attitude they believe their success has given them (if you're a fan of whichever rider it may be entertaining, even endearing, but if you support the other guy, it's an annoying pain..probably and quite possibly the intention of that rider for pure public entertainment value ).

Whichever is true of Lance I couldn't say, it just depends on which stories the racing fans choose to believe. As already pointed out elsewhere though, if you support certain riders or teams in the same manner as a football club/player, then you may not dislike the competition on principle!