Position of the Fortnight

disgruntledgoat

My final goal (having failed at all the others) this season is to get a sub 20 minute time on a Mountain TT organised by a local club. The route has a 3 mile rolling section followed by a 3 mile climb... Below are some photos of my TT position on the first section for you all to critique, I know it isn't great but am looking for easy ways to tweak it given the equipment at my disposal.

Thanks in advance

smithy1.0

I'm no expert, but i'd say you need to go a bit longer, and lower, you look a bit cramped. Your arms are two close to your body, you need to stretch out a bit more.

xRichx

I'd also say that you should be pouting more... Try riding whilst kissing the air, mouth open like that is causing all kinds f wind resistence. You'll gain around 2mph I reckon from the aero position alone!

Yeah I have nothing to add.

Bhima

Been altering my position recently so I can see you have similar issues I used to have. I've spent about 5 weeks tweaking things so it could take you that long to get it right, as i've found I only notice minor problems from more TT practice. It took me a week to get it 99% right, but i've spent about a month ironing out that last 1%, which you only notice 4/5 miles in to a TT.

- Saddle looks too high. The bend in your left leg in the first photo should be happening at the 6 o'clock position, not the 4 o'clock position. I take it your leg's straight at the bottom of the pedal stroke? Too low and your ar5e will rock about. Too high and you'll get serious back pain/power dead-spot at the 6 o'clock position. You know you've got it right when it feels like you can push and pull on the pedals equally, with the same amount of power. That balance will feel slightly out if the saddle's wrong.

- Legs look all twisted/bent inwards. That looks painful! You can get spacers to add to the pedals/cranks to move them outward, if they're too narrow, compared to your body.

- You need to get lower. Remove any spacers under the stem and get a -40 degree stem to get lower if necessary. It gets to a point where lower does not equal better, though it looks like you definately could do with getting lower. Keep going lower until you get a pain in the neck from having to bend it too much, then back off slightly until it disappears. Sort your saddle out first.

- Most pros i've seen have forearms which are parallel. From photo 2, you can clearly see that yours aren't. You'll get more aero that way although it's a trade-off with comfort and bike-handling/stability. Also - those aerobars are tiny! :shock: If you get stretched out longer, so your elbows are further forward, you'll feel less cramped and will probably have more room for your knees to move about in.

- Oh, and ditch the black shoes/socks.

One thing i've noticed is that, if you've got everything right, you should be really still on the bike - the only things moving should be your legs. I was watching Bradley Twiggo in the Beaumont Challenge recently (on Eurosport) and he looked really relaxed and had loads of space for his legs to move about in when he was in an aero tuck. I think that's the secret - getting aero without getting cramped up so much that you lose power.

softlad

ironically, it looks as though you could probably get lower by ditching the tri bars and riding on the drops...

disgruntledgoat

Thanks guys

Bhima: The leg position is just how I ride, and have done for ten years now. It's one of those individual quirks, the only downside of which is really tight IT bands (my poor physio!) As for the saddle height, i think the photo is deceptive, My leg is, as is correct,just ever so slightly bent at 6 o'clock.

Softlad, I think you're right, i've been going faster than ever on 10s this year, but I feel that may be in spite of my position on the bike, those photos made me take a step back and realise that it is pretty poor. I may try dropping all my spacers for TTs or, given there's only 6 weeks, ride the flat section on the drops.

shockedsoshocked

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

disgruntledgoat

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

Ha! You will observe, sir, the downward angle of the tri bars...

shockedsoshocked

disgruntledgoat wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

Ha! You will observe, sir, the downward angle of the tri bars...

I did notice that

Another solution may be a longer stem too, would probably make a difference when riding your normal bars too?

Woodchip

disgruntledgoat wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

Ha! You will observe, sir, the downward angle of the tri bars...

But surely (and correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no TT expert) by lowering the front of the tri-bars you are raising the rear. This in turn will raise your upper arm higher, therefore your torso will be high at the shoulder giving you a more upright position. Would it not be more beneficial to have the tri-bars pitched up about 7-10 degrees therefore lowering your upper arm in relation to your hip and giving you a more streamlined position?

Feel free to flame the noob.

disgruntledgoat

Woodchip wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

Ha! You will observe, sir, the downward angle of the tri bars...

But surely (and correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no TT expert) by lowering the front of the tri-bars you are raising the rear. This in turn will raise your upper arm higher, therefore your torso will be high at the shoulder giving you a more upright position. Would it not be more beneficial to have the tri-bars pitched up about 7-10 degrees therefore lowering your upper arm in relation to your hip and giving you a more streamlined position?

Feel free to flame the noob.

YES! Well done that man!

Alex_Simmons/RST

disgruntledgoat wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

Ha! You will observe, sir, the downward angle of the tri bars...

Excepting that in 95/100 cases that is a worse aero option than forearms parallel to ground or pointing upwards a little is almost always better. Looking at some pros is the wrong thing to do as they have not all got it properly sussed either.

wear a Skinsuit
put on an aero helmet
ditch the gloves
put your glasses on
aero wheels - yes on a hillclimb they will still be faster

Here are some comments via Andy Coggan, from learning by Jim Martin and John Cobb:

> Originally posted to RBR by Andy Coggan:
>
> "Not to be disagreeable, but I disagree. If my goal were to set myself
> up in an aero position with minimal drag and I didn't have access to a
> wind tunnel, I'd just drop the elbow pads far enough down below the
> saddle that my shoulders (acromion process) were within a couple of
> inches of being level with my hips (head of greater trochanter), move
> the elbow pads in to where my arms were as narrow or perhaps narrower
> than my thighs when viewed from the front, tilt the aero bars up
> ever-so-slightly, and keep my head down. I'd then go out and ride the
> bike - hard - in that position and see how far foward (and thus up) I
> needed to move the saddle to where my thigh-torso angle was similar to
> the "working position" on my road bike. I'd then ride the TT bike for
> at least one hour - hard! - each week for at least 6 weeks before any race.
> Sounds crude, I know, but for a flat TT this neandrathal approach will
> probably get you to within about 1 km/h of your maximal speed."

Ah, the original "neandrathal" (sic) post! :-)

Anyway, the only things I would change/details that I would add (aside from not misspelling neanderthal) are:

1) regardless of your elbow width, your hands should be very close together;

2) the back of your thumb should be no lower than the crook of your elbow (i.e., the antecubital fossa), whereas the heel of your hand should be no higher than that point; and

3) "shoulders almost level w/ hips" can perhaps be better expressed as "acromion process no higher than insertion of latissimus dorsi".

disgruntledgoat

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I'd also say you need to stretch out more, lower the foam pad bits too.

Basically just look at pictures of Jan Ullrich and try to emulate it

Ha! You will observe, sir, the downward angle of the tri bars...

Excepting that in 95/100 cases that is a worse aero option than forearms parallel to ground or pointing upwards a little is almost always better. Looking at some pros is the wrong thing to do as they have not all got it properly sussed either.

wear a Skinsuit
put on an aero helmet
ditch the gloves
put your glasses on
aero wheels - yes on a hillclimb they will still be faster

Just the man I was hoping would comment! The equipment is a given for the moment, I think. And the glasses were on my head as after I started it really rained heavily. Are you saying my cotton cap isn't aero?


As for the rest, really sound advice. Thanks.

Bronzie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Are you saying my cotton cap isn't aero?

No - that's pretty damn aero since you've got it on back-to-front - old skool style!

a_n_t

I rode with aero bars for the first time last night and knocked 31 secs off my 10 mile PB.
TBH though I'm alot more "aero" than you look up there!

sub55

:disgruntledgoat:
strickly speaking , that position is so bad ,you could be DQ`d for it.
at least under ctt regs.

chrisw12

1) Loose some weight (the nasty response). Have you been weight training lately, your shoulders are massive, have you thought about taking up strong man or body building instead of cycling (The over flattering response)

2) Black socks!!

3) Sunglasses, yes you've given excuses but really at least put them on the back of the head like the pro's do.

4) Your times are slow but yet your mouth is open, are you singing or something?

5) Two bottle cages? When was the last time you needed two bottles in a tt. Come on those cages must weigh 50g, that could save you like 2 minutes.

6) Is that the team kit or is it sponsored kit? In which year did it fit you or was it stolen from someones' close line?

7) You're in the big ring. You know by reading this forum that you need to be in the small ring at a cadence over 200.

8) Get someone who likes you to pin your number on. The way that number has been put on, the guy must really hate you.

9) Clean white bar tape. Your obviously not training enough or at the right intensity.

10) Get someone to cut the grass behind you.

All joking of course.

But in all seriousness your position is ctt illegal since your wrists are lower than your elbow. I suppose being pedantic, you could also be banned for ridding with your head down.

I only say this because if you respond badly I'll get you banned.

Moral, never, never have your picture taken.

sub55

sub55

14. Competitor’s Machine
Machines fitted with triathlon handlebars and derivations thereof which have forearm supports, or Spinacci type handlebars without forearm supports, may be used provided that when the rider adopts a competitive position on these bars:-

The wrists are no lower than the elbows.

The point of the elbow joint is no more than 3cm in front of a line extended through the centre of the machine’s head tube.

The height from the ground to the forearm resting position is no less than 80% of the height of the saddle from the ground.
[/b]

BeaconRuth

chrisw12 wrote:

I suppose being pedantic, you could also be banned for ridding with your head down.:

I suppose being pedantic, I could ask you when WILL you learn to spell "riding"? I've spent years wincing every time you put "ridding" in your posts! :evil:

Ruth

chrisw12

Trouble is, English is my third language (behind bullshit and Welsh) so I've got a problem with double letters, we don't get many of them in the Welsh language. :roll:

Since this thread has got your attention, I note that we haven't seen you in God's country this year. Are you going to come and ride a few tt's in Wales soon?

BeaconRuth

No plans to come and race down your way at present, Chris. It's conceivable I might make a trip to the ski-slope to ride a tandem, but not otherwise. I've enough racing to keep me busy up here and racing usually gets in the way of training anyway.

Back to the OP - you've got some work to do on that position, but most importantly, change your socks!

Ruth

disgruntledgoat

chrisw12 wrote:

1) Loose some weight (the nasty response). Have you been weight training lately, your shoulders are massive, have you thought about taking up strong man or body building instead of cycling (The over flattering response)

2) Black socks!!

3) Sunglasses, yes you've given excuses but really at least put them on the back of the head like the pro's do.

4) Your times are slow but yet your mouth is open, are you singing or something?

5) Two bottle cages? When was the last time you needed two bottles in a tt. Come on those cages must weigh 50g, that could save you like 2 minutes.

6) Is that the team kit or is it sponsored kit? In which year did it fit you or was it stolen from someones' close line?

7) You're in the big ring. You know by reading this forum that you need to be in the small ring at a cadence over 200.

8) Get someone who likes you to pin your number on. The way that number has been put on, the guy must really hate you.

9) Clean white bar tape. Your obviously not training enough or at the right intensity.

10) Get someone to cut the grass behind you.

All joking of course.

But in all seriousness your position is ctt illegal since your wrists are lower than your elbow. I suppose being pedantic, you could also be banned for ridding with your head down.

I only say this because if you respond badly I'll get you banned.

Moral, never, never have your picture taken.

THis is gonna be a mammoth post, but I feel a point by point response is required...

1) I'm a svelte 72kg at present. I put on about 5kg 18 months ago after an ill advised season of using American Football as crosstraining.

2) The socks may be black, but it was their turn and in their defense they say Evil on them. That negates their blackness for me.

3)I was punished by the cycling gods for the galsses, about 20 seconds after that was taken they fell off. Investigation later that evening revealed them to have been run over.

4) I was gurning for the camera! Giving the public what they want! Sheesh, some people.

5) I can't be fussed removing and refitting bottle cages for TTs I ride once every couple of weeks

6)That's my club kit and it fits me fine. That hurt!

7) My yoghurt pot cadance meter is broken.

8)I love my Giordana shorts too much to let a pin go through them. I've seen the state of TT merhcants club kits.

9)No excuse sir

10) Lake District national park authorities... what can you do?

You nearly made me cry with that lot!

BeaconRuth

disgruntledgoat wrote:

2) The socks may be black, but it was their turn.........

Geez, this guy is so well organised that he wears his socks in strict rotation. :shock:

Your black socks are gonna have to learn that they miss their turn if it's a cycling day, Disgruntledgoat!

Ruth