Etape du tour 2009 - beware of sports tours international

spindrift72

I've just returned from riding L'Etape du Tour Montelimar to Mont Ventoux. The ride itself was absolutely fantastic (perhaps the most enjoyable ride of my life, completed in 7h 55) and the Etape organisation faultless. The same could not be said for Sports Tours International who seem to have dominated the etape market, take on far too many guests than they can adequately cope with, charge a lot of money and make an absolute fortune out of it for a very poor service

There were very long delays on all coach transfers due to the large number of guests departing to/ from a large number of different hotels (we left our hotel at 7.45 the morning after the ride to drive 53 km to Avignon airport for a 1305 h flight - another guest left her hotel at 6am!). On our delayed arrival at our hotel, for some reason the hotel staff were unable to give out room keys and we had to wait for an hour for our totally unapologetc rep to arrive from another coach to simply give out the keys. Our coach drivers got lost on a daily basis and had to be directed by guests with GPS units or by collecting random old ladies from the street to guide them! We had to wait for over 4 h after finishing the ride in a car park at the foot of Ventoux with no easy access to food or drink for broomwagoners to join each coach, rather than a later coach being laid on for them. We thus didn't eat after the ride until 10pm and most people were too tired by then. The hotel food was absolutely appalling, despite the fact that they actually served good food in the restaurant. We were served 'special sports food' consisting of a small serving of plain rice of pasta with a piece of overcooked meat. We were served a yogurt for desert. Vegetarians were served the same meal (lacking any protein) all 3 evenings. The reps were largely unhelpful (except Dave from Cannock who was a star) and the overall organisation was shoddy.

I would love to ride L'etape again but I would never use Sports Tours International/ Graham Baxter. Every guest I spoke to felt exactly the same way. My advice: strongly onsider other providers.

andyp

Some things never change.

Kléber

I'm sure someone will be along to defend them but I keep hearing tales of lost coaches, disinterested reps and poor value when it comes to Sports Tours and Baxters too. Time after time...

Generally you are paying high prices for what's just cheap coach travel and a basic motel. For the same money you could:
i) get entry only and stay in a luxury "relais et chateaux" B&B or
ii) have an extra weekend away before hand to recce the course or
iii) just save loadsamoney

I'm not kidding.

Remember, booking a hotel in France is rather easy, there's no need to pay someone £250 just to make the phone call for you. The same goes for sorting out your travel, getting to Montelimar, well it's not Timbucktoo, it has a TGV station, is next to the A7 motorway, Lyon and Marseilles airports are close by.

oscar26

My experience was pretty much the same as spindrift's....I enjoyed the Etape but came away thinking that under no circumstances would I ever use Sports Tours again for anything. The whole thing was a complete shambles, starting with the 4 hour coach transfer from the airport when we had been told it would be less than 2 (the delay being caused by the coach stopping at just about every crummy hotel along the way).

The arrangements for the transfer after the Etape from the base of Ventoux back to the hotel were even worse. I finished in under 6 and a half hours, which meant I got to the car park before 3.00pm...so ended up waiting there in the baking heat for well over 5 hours. It was ridiculous to expect everybody to wait for the slowest finisher given the numbers involved (I'm told they were dealing with some 900 clients). The scene at the car park was one of chaos, with countless so called "reps" standing around looking gormless or messing about with each other, but doing very little to actually help out their clients (they seemed to regard the clients as something of a nuisance).

What I don't understand is how this company has obtained such a monopoly of Etape places for UK entrants. The Etape organisers should spread out the places between various tour companies so that there is a bit of competition, not give most of them to this one company which clearly cannot cope with the numbers.

bahzob

Unable to vote as my response would be "neutral". Know Baxters by reputation and 1 bad personal experience so got what I expected.

Given had a lot of other stuff on plate right now, main aim was to reduce hassle especially for hotels/luggage with awareness need to sort out some bits myself.

Results mixed bag

Good:
Hotels were pretty much perfect in terms of location. Start one right in centre of Montelimar, finish in Carpentras (so could make own way there on bike)
Luggage dealt with well, left on bus in the morning, in hotel room when I arrived after ride (especially impressive as I didnt put a name tag on it)

Not so good
Two things blindingly obvious to someone on first etape should have been dealt with by a company with experience Baxters have:
- System to deal with riders finishing at hugely different times. Its going to happen every year.
- Ventoux was always going to be a challenge. Wny wasnt there a Sports tours spot half way up to offer water/support? I was lucky and saw some guys from Cyclefit who had set up a van who handed me a bottle of cold water that made my day.

fnb1

sounds very familiar expereince to the one I had in 06. In subsequent years I used them for the convinience of the booking etc but arranged most of my own logistics around the event only really relying on them to get me to the start on the morning of the event.

Bit of an expesive way to do it but it works for me.

I do have some sympathy with Baxters/Sports Tours, the undertaking is a bit like herding cats and as such is bound to have difficulties,

but they have been doing it for years and I always got the impression that it was like their first attempt in so much as the same shortcomings are there every year.

Bryan F

sorry to hear about your experience with Sporting Tours.

I was lucky to do my first etape with friends who had been out before to do etapes. We booked places with ron at etape.org.uk. he provided us with places and bus tickets. then after that it was just hire car, book flights and book accommodation. we had fantastic accommodation in Allan just outside Montelimar, dinner bed and breakfast, swimming pool, good location, local cycling routes and all for 220ish Euros for 5 nights (missed dinner for two of the nights). Flights were £300 glasgow via gatwick to marseille. hire car between three £175 inc deisel. So around about £700 plus £120 entry fee, lunches, sweets etc. not sure what sporting tours charged but I reckon picking your own itinery was far more enjoyable especially to get a good fed after the event!

Perhaps best way is to speak to local cycling clubs who may have a few guys heading out to do it next year and try arranging travel with them.

RR75

I went with Sports Tours - not impressed. Fortunately I'd driven out with friends, and we then hired a local car - so didn't in fact use any of the transfers which by every account were an utter disgrace as described above.

Sports Tours told me that the French cycling authority had booked out all the hotels, and sub-let them to Sports Tours at huge expense. Quick check with the hotel suggested this wasn't the case - the reception guy told me that Sports Tours in fact make a fat profit on the hotel. I don't mind staying in a crap hotel, but I object to being forced to pay 3* price, especially when so little value is added by the tour operator.

Totally agree with the comments about food, particularly the night before.

I wonder how we Brits can try to introduce a bit more competition into this market for next year? Is it worth writing to the Etape organisers to let them know? Next year if I can't get entry-only, I'll give it a miss - there are plenty of other Alpine sportives.

RR75

I'm told it's really difficult to get entry-only through the French system. Is this really the case? I've a few friends in Paris and could try to enlist their help...

meenaghman

For those with a complaint with sports tours, they are a member of ABTA. Send your complaint to Sports tours. It mighnt come to much but if a sizeable no. of complaints are headed that way then the company may at least have to review policy. A written complaint must be acknowledged within 14 days and replied to in full in 28 days.

Kléber

The thing with Sports Tours is that they don't breech any of the terms of their contract, you get a coach to sit in, you get a hotel room, you get food, you get staff to help. None of this is missing, it's just the service level you get compared to the price that often disappoints.

Complaining to ABTA or even the company isn't going to change much, you weren't left stranded so what can ABTA do and the company has long since cashed your cheque. By all means try it but frankly I'd look to booking the trip yourself, possibly trying an alternative event that is just as challenging, even more if you opt for the grizzly Marmotte, and far easier to enter.

Le Commentateur

Also bear in mind that ASO skim off 4/5ths of the price as commission, so no wonder you were given a budget deal from Baxters. I bet they don't make much profit out of these etapes, but have to keep in with ASO to get access to the Tour. Apparently if you set up a holiday copmpany offering trips specifically to see the TdF you'll soon hear from their lawyers inviting you to become a commercial partner or else.

I did a few trips with Baxters in the 1990s and I think in those days they were a smaller outfit making a bigger profit (we had a fantastic hotel on the lakeside at Annecy in 1998 for instance).

What I don't understand is how this company has obtained such a monopoly of Etape places for UK entrants. The Etape organisers should spread out the places between various tour companies so that there is a bit of competition, not give most of them to this one company which clearly cannot cope with the numbers.

As I wrote above, ASO take a massive chunk of the money for themselves, so the sweetener for the UK (or US/Australian/etc) partner is that at least they get a local monopoly. Spreading the entries between numerous companies is too much admin and ASO don't care if you have a bad time with Baxters, as they've already made twice as much out of you than if you'd entered the Etape directly from a French address.

Kléber

Le Commentateur wrote:

Also bear in mind that ASO skim off 4/5ths of the price as commission

Of the entry fee, yes. But I don't think that's on the hotels or the mark-ups on the coach travel?

Le Commentateur

No but I guess Baxter's profits have to come from somewhere.

Personally, as soon as I was confident to travel independently I stopped using tour companies like Baxters. It's even easier nowadays with internet booking for accommodation, budget airlines and train ticket mahines with English language options.

RR75

Profits don't "have" to come from anywhere, not at the level these guys are making.

They get away with it because so many of us are willing to pay:
- we don't know better, especially first-timers
- we are lazy
- there are too few "entry only" places

I for one won't be going with STI again. I'll only go if I can do entry-only.

A shame as in all other respects the Etape was a brilliant experience.

andyp

To be fair, a quick google search on this before you booked an Etape place would throw up a number of threads on here about the poor level of service Sports Tours International/Graham Baxter offer.

I don't know if any of the alternatives offer a better service, but you don't hear them being complained about at this time year after year.

spindrift72

At least this has stimulated a discussion about the alternatives.

I get the impression that like me, a number of people doing the etape with STI are usually independent travellers who go with STI only out of an inability to obtain an entry-only place.

I didn't see the other comments before booking but that was one of the purposes of this thread. The only way to change the system is through consumer movement away from bad operators.

The etape organisers seem keen to get feedback and I'd encourage people to tell them about the service you've received and that as a result you're not going to do the etape again, as I have.

A huge heap of money is being made by someone but I can't tell by whom.

Alternatives:
1. Frenchcycleholidays.com seemed smaller and better organised but also more expensive and still provide a 'package' experience.
2. Enlist the help of French friends to apply for you as suggested by RR75
3. Try getting an entry-only place from Ron at etape.org.uk as suggested fy Bryan F - I'd seen the website before and it's really useful. I didn't know you could get an entry through it though - good tip!
4. It's be cheaper to travel to France and buy the Velo magazine edition with the entry form and post it from there, but does anyone know whether they'd accept it with a non-French address?

Other alternatives?

Anything other than sports tours!

bahzob

Another option would be to do an event other than the Etape.

Not quite sure why the Etape gets the amount of interest it does compared to other events which are more of a challenge in terms of cycling, cheaper and a doddle to organise for self.

I did 3 EU events this year, Etape, Marmotte and GF Marco Pantani. Of the 3 I'd rate the least well known Pantani as the best in terms of ride challenge, organisation and value for money, the Marmotte would be second and the Etape (while I throughly enjoyed it) I'd put third.

TheStone

We went with STI last year, but got entry only this year which worked out loads better and cheaper (even with hiring 2 cars between 3 of us for start and finish).

In some defence of STI, they did everything they were meant to do. Hotel was great. Their problems are all the small, easy to impove things. Logistics on coaches to and from airport and event was terrible. Bikes sent to wrong place, dropped off at wrong hotel, so much waiting.

Would only take a small amount of effort to create a better system to avoid this. The packages are over priced, but if it's done well it wouldn't seem so bad.

Do they pay the reps or are they there for free etape trip? One was good, but none of them could speak french, which I'd think would almost be the first criteria?

xover_runner

Went with Sports Tours and feel I should add my comments.

Elected for the STI bike transfer. 3 pm Friday pick up at South Mimms M25. Van arrived 4:30. Driver was not properly trained had no idea how to stck and secure expensive bikes and the van was almost certainly overloaded with I think 50+ bikes. Every was very concerned about the safety of their bikes.

Transfer from Nimes to Montelimar Hotel (which was in fact 13km north of Montelimar) took 4 hours to do 80km. No food, no drink, no warning it would take that long. Coach diver no satnav just relying on Googlemap printouts for the 9 hotel drop offs.

Despite them saying we would have a coach back from the bike store in Montelimar to our hotel on Sunday at the vey last moment we were told no coach you'll have to ride back (only 13k I know) and ride in to the start in the morning in the dark. Not a disaster but some thing we could do without, saw somene with a puncture at 5:45 on the way in to the start, not the best start.

Waitied from 4pm to 9:30 in Maulcenne for everyone to finish and get the coach to Avignon for hotel and dinner.

Rep was nice enough bloke, well meaning but he admitted he was co-opted in by a mate of a mate at the last minute and didn't really have a clue on what any of the arrangements were and didn't inspire confidence.

Formule 1 hotel at Montelimar was "budget" and re-defined budget but got used to it. Only real moan was the breakfast "room" was not much bigger than my kitchen and 28 hungry cyclists at 4am on Monday nearly got nasty as people josteld to get to the cornflakes and coffee.

Etape was great but never again with Sports Tours International. Very expensive and service and communications was poor.

Plus points - food was fine and plentiful on Saturday and Sunday evenings.
Transfer back from Avignon to Nimes was on time and uvenetful

mark_d

Wow. What horror stories. Hotel Formule 1?! Those rooms are about €40! How much are STI charging for these trips? (Nothing wrong with Hotel F1, either -- it's cheap and cheerful.)

I've never been with STI, and I probably wouldn't haven chosen them based on previous tales, but after reading this there's no way I'd use them. I guess the fact that they have an effective monopoly on Etape entries allows them to get away with it; any other business with such a poor reputation would surely fail. A shame.

xover_runner

Formule 1 is only 35E a night. We stayed at an Etap hotel on last night which was 45E and you got your own shower and toilet for that.

Been trying to see where the money went

3 nights hotel - 115E
Bike transfer by van - £75
Etape entry - £100?
3 evening meals - £60?
Hire of bike store ?
Coach transfers ?

Total cost of trip I paid for was £700. Think STI did OK out of that....

RR75

TheStone wrote:

We went with STI last year, but got entry only this year which worked out loads better and cheaper (even with hiring 2 cars between 3 of us for start and finish).

In some defence of STI, they did everything they were meant to do. Hotel was great. Their problems are all the small, easy to impove things. Logistics on coaches to and from airport and event was terrible. Bikes sent to wrong place, dropped off at wrong hotel, so much waiting.

Would only take a small amount of effort to create a better system to avoid this. The packages are over priced, but if it's done well it wouldn't seem so bad.

Do they pay the reps or are they there for free etape trip? One was good, but none of them could speak french, which I'd think would almost be the first criteria?

You're right, they do everything they are meant to do - and there's no scope to ask for a refund. But they do everything incredibly badly - on a real cut-price basis - having boasted, for example, that their Etape experience ensures a comfortable experience. At no point is there evidence that they actually care about the customer experience.

As has been noted, those of us who are dissatisfied can all exercise our right to choose not to use them again. Entry-only, or other sportives, seem like better solutions.

I've just found that you can go with La Fuga for a sportive in the Dolomites for the same price as STI - but driven around in a small minibus, delivered to the start, and including 4 nights of four-star accommodation.

bahzob

RR75 wrote:

TheStone wrote:

We went with STI last year, but got entry only this year which worked out loads better and cheaper (even with hiring 2 cars between 3 of us for start and finish).

In some defence of STI, they did everything they were meant to do. Hotel was great. Their problems are all the small, easy to impove things. Logistics on coaches to and from airport and event was terrible. Bikes sent to wrong place, dropped off at wrong hotel, so much waiting.

Would only take a small amount of effort to create a better system to avoid this. The packages are over priced, but if it's done well it wouldn't seem so bad.

Do they pay the reps or are they there for free etape trip? One was good, but none of them could speak french, which I'd think would almost be the first criteria?

You're right, they do everything they are meant to do - and there's no scope to ask for a refund. But they do everything incredibly badly - on a real cut-price basis - having boasted, for example, that their Etape experience ensures a comfortable experience. At no point is there evidence that they actually care about the customer experience.

As has been noted, those of us who are dissatisfied can all exercise our right to choose not to use them again. Entry-only, or other sportives, seem like better solutions.

I've just found that you can go with La Fuga for a sportive in the Dolomites for the same price as STI - but driven around in a small minibus, delivered to the start, and including 4 nights of four-star accommodation.

Another example. I did the Tour of Ireland. 5 days fully supported riding on closed roads including hotels/food/great feed stops with a portion of the entry fee going to charity for €800.

paulwood

Just sent e mal to STI as below. See what the reply is.

Jonathan

thought I should let you have some genuine feedback about the trip. I flew with a pike pickup from London Gateway, staying at the Avignon Novotel

please don't take it as negative, my bike and I got there, had a great ride and got home again, which was the whole point of the event.

Bike pick up: Fine. Could have done with a bit more information, like it was a small van and would be in the car park rather than a big lorry in the lorry park which is some way away.

Reception at airport: Good. Lots of reps, good information about why we had to wait.

Hotel: Very good.Rooms fine, food good.

Arrangements for Sunday: Fine

The ride: Just OK. Considering the number of riders a STI tent along the route for a bit of special encouragement / food would have been a nice touch.
The directions to the coaches at the end were not as clear as they could be. I know things changed at the last minute which upset your plans but I know that I was not capable of thinking clearly at the end of the event and a map or written instructions would have been good.

Transfer back to the hotel: Disaster. People were waiting for hours to fill up individual buses. You guys have done this before and know what to expect. Would have been much better to fill up a bus and send it off from 6:30 even if it has to do a round trip of a few hotels. The reps should have been more proactive instead of just standing around chatting to each other.

Airport transfer: Fine

Bike collection: Another disaster. Bike arrived at 12:20 for a 9:00 collection. Would not have been a major problem, sometimes people are late but the information given was at best incompetent and at worst a lie. Frequent calls were made, to be told at 9:30 the van is half an hour away, at 10:30 the van is 20 minutes away, and at 11:30 the van has just passed the services and will turn round and come back. How this took nearly an hour I have no idea. Trere was some traffic congestion but nothing of any note.
As I said, things can be late. Had to take an extra half day off but could have coped with that with correct information. As it was your failure to provide reasonable information meant that I couldn't commit to working or not and had to keep people hanging on.

Again, not a rant, I had a good trip and loved the ride. I would appreciate an answer, especially about the bike collection. I have used your company before and was planning to do so again. Right at the moment I an unsure though.

Thanks

Paul

spindrift72

Just heard from someone who went with French Cycling Holidays and they seem to be in a different league entirely. Smaller groups, no long waits for people at the end, provision of food & drink at the finish etc. It's Ryan Air vs Emirates. If I couldn't get an entry-only place I'd use them in the future for sure.

mozwyn69

I did the 06 Etape with the lake Annecy extension. Anyone else on here on that trip will remember how things got pretty ugly after the bus (promised in the itinerary) to take us from Annecy to the Col de Madeleine was not actually booked at all. The poor 'rep' had a very tough time and was way out of his depth in trying to deal with all the complaints.
Did a Grand Fondo in Italy last year. The rep was a very amiable fellow but again clueless on all the logistics such as transfers (we spent over 7 hours in the airport on arrival waiting for another flight when the hotel was only about an hour away.
We spoke with him and basically the 'reps' are all ex racers who get a free trip out of it. He told us in future to book the trip ourselves as we would save a fortune!


The Etape is fantastic but as others have said once done look at other Euro sportives such as the Marmotte. Much cheaper and easier to get a place, if you have company then you can make a holiday around it for the price of a Baxters weekend trip.

Catbert

I did the marmotte with them this year. The service was utterly appalilng. On registration day we found that STI had actually forgotten to enter one of the riders. The rep couldn't give a damn, just headed off for his pre-planned ride, leaving it to the individual to try to see what could be done. Another rider hadn't submitted a medical cert, which again STI had failed to spot and again he was left to sort it out himself. Absolutely no help at the start or finish - I saw plenty of friends and families jostling at the tent at the finish for the Certificates (printed in response to showing your rider no. card) on behalf of riders who were no doubt off getting food/drink/rest, but even this was beyond them. On the coach back to Geneva airport, the driver halted a bit short of the main entrance and for about a minute it wasn't clear if he had stopped or was waiting to move up. Eventually it dawned on us that the rep had jumped off. We got off to unload bikes while he was off helping himself to a luggage trolley, returning in time to collect his own bike that we had unloaded for him! I have emailed a complaint to Baxter but no reply. STI's website also has a customerservice@ email address, but it bounces with a no such address exists message. Avoid!

FransJacques

You get what you pay for, plain and simple. Trouble is, etapes are expensive. Everything is 2x / 3x the price of normal

la Fuga, GPM 10, and cyclemundo probably provide better service 9/10 times (who else saw La Fuga's base camp at the bottom of the Ventoux before Malaucene?) but they *are expensive". But now that you've seen the crappy ones, maybe you'll pony up some real duckets next year

I've done several etapes (+ many grand trophee events) going back to '98 and have to say that after that first one (Les Deux Alpes) I've done the rest off my own back and fricken loved it. Some key points from 8 etapes worth of experience:

- learn French or at least how to humour french hotel managers to get what you want, they will usually make an effort if you invest in the relationship. this year, the Orange Ibis Sud could not have ben nicer for a budget hotel, really took care of us and had brekkie (even the hot stuff they said they couldn't do at that time) going strong!

- buy an entry only (these still cost £130 and most of that goes to the ASO. complain to Thomas Delpuch)

- don't worry about staying up to ~50kms from the start but DO bring a DD - i.e. a designated driver or significant other who can be the chauffer

- make sure you pay them back following the etape with some chilled out wine tasting or chateau visiting or beach time

- make a trip out of the Etape, don't even try a quick in - ride - quick out in France in the middle of July with every Belgian, Dutchman, Brit etc. and their kids & trailers clogging up the A6/A7. The TdF and the Etape are about the country of France, so get into it and enjoy it. It's NOT about box ticking, do it because you love it, not because you have found a good deal where you only have to take 1.5 days from your annual holiday allotment.

If you arrive 2/3 days early and acclimatize then you'll be better off, less stressed, and your bike will work and you won't have to bring the chain tool which weighed you down for 4+ hours on the Ventoux!

It really pains me to read these accounts because of the possibilities of what could have been.

Kléber

Wise words from fransjacques. I agree totally.

Plus £700 for coach travel and an F1 hotel? Wow. For me life isn't about the hotels I visit, it's the experience of racing through Ventoux that matters. I'd sleep in a cowshed if it was required. But I couldn't spend so much money to stay in a cheap hotel and travel via coach when I could spend less, get a smart place and travel more easily.

I stayed 50km from Montélimar near Orange. We had our own car and parked this at the finish on the day before the ride and got the bus back to the start town. We then rented a hire car from there for 24 hours and used this to get to our B&B and then drove it back to Montélimar on the morning of the Etape. We rode the Etape, picked up the car waiting for us at the foot of Ventoux, drove to Montélimar and emptied the rental car and handed the keys back. This way means you can stay miles from the start line, there's no need for a hotel near the start.

Entry only is the way to go. With the internet, it's easy to find a hotel in the region and to organise some transport like a rental car. If you call a hotel and they don't speak English, well try another but you'll find most hoteliers are welcoming. Better, look for a fun B&B (called chambre d'hote in French), where you'll get a better feeling for the region and maybe enjoy some local food.

The route is announced in October, so spend a little time in the winter planning and you'll make the trip really good plus you'll save a packet.

Catbert

Good tips from Fransjacques & Kleber but going a bit off piste for the topic? The reason there is a market for STI-type tours is, judging by the client base from my experience, there are plently of time-poor enthusiasts out there with enough disposable income to pay for someone to take the hassle out of events of this type. What I was expecting from the pitch on the STI website was an experience more like MarkWarner/YSE etc alpine ski trips where you do generally get responsive customer service and those little extras that make it worth paying the premium. There also seem to be less well known companies out there who do meet that demand for cycling events - if anyone has experience of French Cycling Holidays or Cyclomundo I'd be interested to hear how they got on - from their presence on the Marmotte it did seem as if these alternatives were doing much better!