TDF = Snoozefest.
Comments
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afx237vi wrote:turkeytickler wrote:
are you claiming that this years snore de france is uncharacteristically free from competition for the GC due to a miraculous blanket clean-up of the peloton? that's quite a claim...jackhammer111 wrote:I think you don't like watching clean riders.
The EPO era is over, man! Everyone has seen the error of their ways... except, er, Inigo Landaluze and Ricardo Serrano. And Dekker. And those 12 Italians.
I'm serious and you do red herrings.
Decker is a clear victory fort the passport program. Suspicions about his values cause them to re-test of an out-of-competition sample taken in December 2007. That's where they found CERA. 2007, not 2009.
Inido and Serrano are likely mico dosees used in transfused blood. Now the message is out, you can't even get away with that, plus the have to be careful with transfusing becuase they are monitor changes in crit.
The doping that may be going on now is nibbling around the edges compared to the clear boosts from large performance doses of EPO.
Results are closer to natural abilities and you're complaining because their more evenly matched.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:I'm serious and you do red herrings.
Decker is a clear victory fort the passport program. Suspicions about his values cause them to re-test of an out-of-competition sample taken in December 2007. That's where they found CERA. 2007, not 2009.
Inido and Serrano are likely mico dosees used in transfused blood. Now the message is out, you can't even get away with that, plus the have to be careful with transfusing becuase they are monitor changes in crit.
The doping that may be going on now is nibbling around the edges compared to the clear boosts from large performance doses of EPO.
Results are closer to natural abilities and you're complaining because their more evenly matched.
Can you be my bank manager please. I promise I'll pay up on any loan you might give me, honest.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:Inido and Serrano are likely mico dosees used in transfused blood. Now the message is out, you can't even get away with that, plus the have to be careful with transfusing becuase they are monitor changes in crit.
Your obsession with HCT indicates you've not read much about how the passport works. It's too much of a blunt instrument to detect doping. OFF Scores and various other measures are far more interesting. Lance's HCT has varied from 40-47ish % this season.
Remember, Ashenden, who is one of the people who does the analysis states they cannot reliably detect tranfusions with the passport.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Inido and Serrano are likely mico dosees used in transfused blood. Now the message is out, you can't even get away with that, plus the have to be careful with transfusing becuase they are monitor changes in crit.
Your obsession with HCT indicates you've not read much about how the passport works. It's too much of a blunt instrument to detect doping. OFF Scores and various other measures are far more interesting. Lance's HCT has varied from 40-47ish % this season.
Remember, Ashenden, who is one of the people who does the analysis states they cannot reliably detect tranfusions with the passport.
If lance went from 40 to 47 during the tour they would sanction him. They can sanction on the basis of blood values alone now.
Transfusing from 45 to 47 might be something you could get away with but maybe not even that during the Tour as they have profiles of what is supposed to happen to your levels during the race.
Still, even that pales in comparison to full EPO injections some riders did for years.
And the two riders announced caught yesterday? where were they? Not at the Tour de France is the answer to that. What ever they did doesn't seem to have made them very good.
Tell me what you mean by OFF scores or point me to more information about how passport works. I'm always interested in knowing more.
None of what you said changes what I said. This year the riders in the Tour are obviosly more equal in power and have been less interested in attacking or making bold moves.
And from an observational stand point I seem to have seen every GC contender showing signs of distress, i.e. mouth breathing winded at some point in the different races, including Lance and Alberto.
Doing long climbs with mouths closed seemed to be one of the symptoms of the EPO years.
I know that's not something I can measure but it's just an opinion based on observation.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:Tell me what you mean by OFF scores or point me to more information about how passport works. I'm always interested in knowing more.
This articlehas a fair bit about how analysis is done
Perhaps because of the UCI's old fixation on hematocrit, many of us similarly key on that value as an indication of clean racing. But according to Ashenden, it's one of the least important. Hematocrit, or the percentage of total blood volume that is red blood cells, fluctuates by large amounts in even normal human beings. It's susceptible to issues ranging from the subject's hydration to proper sample transport (improper refrigeration causes RBCs to swell, disproportionately increasing their volume).
"The first thing I look at in interpreting results is reticulocyte count and OFF-score, then hemoglobin," explained Ashenden. "I also look at anything about a sample that is strange and might explain off values due to transport and testing issues - mean cell volume and hematocrit chiefly."
Reticulocytes are new red blood cells. "On any given day, about 1.5 percent of your red blood cells are removed from your body," said Ashenden. "So in order to keep levels constant, your body has to introduce that same 1.5 percent - reflected in the reticulocyte count. So this measures, of all the blood cells in your body, how many are reticulocytes?" It is expressed as a percentage, like hematocrit. The UCI's normal range is about .6 to 1.4 percent.
Hemoglobin is another direct measure. Hemoglobin molecules transport oxygen and are thus the primary influence on an athlete's VO2Max, or aerobic capacity. The test measures the concentration of hemoglobin in the blood, expressed as grams of hemoglobin per deciliter. Values above 17g/dl are considered suspicious by the UCI.
Finally, the OFF-Score is an algorithm that Ashenden helped create. It's arrived at by taking the hemoglobin value and subtracting 60 times the square root of the reticulocyte percentage. The UCI considers any OFF-Score above 133 to be suspect and to warrant further testing and investigation.
And here's a bit from Dr Ferrari
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=71Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Tell me what you mean by OFF scores or point me to more information about how passport works. I'm always interested in knowing more.
This articlehas a fair bit about how analysis is done
Perhaps because of the UCI's old fixation on hematocrit, many of us similarly key on that value as an indication of clean racing. But according to Ashenden, it's one of the least important. Hematocrit, or the percentage of total blood volume that is red blood cells, fluctuates by large amounts in even normal human beings. It's susceptible to issues ranging from the subject's hydration to proper sample transport (improper refrigeration causes RBCs to swell, disproportionately increasing their volume).
"The first thing I look at in interpreting results is reticulocyte count and OFF-score, then hemoglobin," explained Ashenden. "I also look at anything about a sample that is strange and might explain off values due to transport and testing issues - mean cell volume and hematocrit chiefly."
Reticulocytes are new red blood cells. "On any given day, about 1.5 percent of your red blood cells are removed from your body," said Ashenden. "So in order to keep levels constant, your body has to introduce that same 1.5 percent - reflected in the reticulocyte count. So this measures, of all the blood cells in your body, how many are reticulocytes?" It is expressed as a percentage, like hematocrit. The UCI's normal range is about .6 to 1.4 percent.
Hemoglobin is another direct measure. Hemoglobin molecules transport oxygen and are thus the primary influence on an athlete's VO2Max, or aerobic capacity. The test measures the concentration of hemoglobin in the blood, expressed as grams of hemoglobin per deciliter. Values above 17g/dl are considered suspicious by the UCI.
Finally, the OFF-Score is an algorithm that Ashenden helped create. It's arrived at by taking the hemoglobin value and subtracting 60 times the square root of the reticulocyte percentage. The UCI considers any OFF-Score above 133 to be suspect and to warrant further testing and investigation.
And here's a bit from Dr Ferrari
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=71
Thanks very much. I had red the bit by Ferrari and much of what Ashenden said elsewhere. The bicycling.com article is excellent.
Since you know this stuff you know what I'm saying about the use of micro doses of EPO in blood bags to affect reticulocyte count. As the tests for EPO products get more sensitive it's harder to get away with. Not to mention the effect transfusing has on the other parameters.
I think they are just nibbling around the edges but I'm now always a little curious when I see things like Alberto just dance away like that and not seem stressed at the finish. I remember Rasmussen looking like that. Schleck looked like his legs were tired but didn't seem particularly winded. Lance was pouring sweat and obviously could not have gone harder.
Overall I think today was pretty close racing. Nothing too obvious.0 -
Gazzetta, I've sent you a PM about transferring those tapes, did you get it?0
