TDF - I just don't get it...

boneyjoe

Could someone please tell me what exactly is the point of riding 195km, to have a sprint finish over a few hundred metres? And doing this not once or twice, but for about 10 of the 21 stages? Cav is no doubt a brilliant athlete, but surely the race organisers can come up with something just a bit more interesting?

gabriel959

And then they call the Vuelta a España boring ...

Kléber

Some of us enjoy a bunch sprint! Besides, there have been three sprint finishes in 10 stages, there have been plenty of breakaways too.

Mettan

For trivia - Would it possible for someone like Cancellara on an easy flat stage (with little wind) with say 5-10 km to go to time-trial his way off the front to a stage victory ?? - just wondering - don't know.

Harry Hill

Today was terminally boring - and I'm afraid Cav is turning into a bit of a pratt.

Never mind. Lance is there to watch/talk about
:-)

donrhummy

This is why I think the Giro's always a more exciting route.

afx237vi

Mettan wrote:

For trivia - Would it possible for someone like Cancellara on an easy flat stage (with little wind) with say 5-10 km to go to time-trial his way off the front to a stage victory ?? - just wondering - don't know.

5 km? David Zabriskie did it for 150 km in the Vuelta a few years ago.

frenchfighter

The sub 20k attackers are very exciting to watch and I would like to see one or two attempts at this especially with Cav being so dominant.

In response to the original question - you have always got track cycling...

It is a race which has been going since 1903 so I see no reason why it should be changed. All this business about trying to spice it up is a bit annoying in my opinion. There is only so much organisers can do - it is down to the riders to make the course interesting.

Kléber

Don't take today's stage as normal, there was an agreement amongst the teams to keep the racing as boring as possible in a bid to thwart the concept of abandoning race radios during some stages.

Homer J

Not sure what they could do, but it is becoming a bit predictable/boring. Maybe back to the old days when the stages were mega long, without looking it up i think more than 400K. Maybe give shorter cut off times, so there's no lolly gaging around
Personally i don't watch the flats on tv, except for Paris.

Mettan

Cancellara would have been well rested for today - not sure what the wind situation was like, but if he went off the front with 5 - 10 k or whatever, it would be good to see what he could do. I think he'd have some success here or there on the right flat-ish stage with an ok wind-situation.

frenchfighter

Homer J wrote:

Not sure what they could do, but it is becoming a bit predictable/boring. Maybe back to the old days when the stages were mega long, without looking it up i think more than 400K. Maybe give shorter cut off times, so there's no lolly gaging around
Personally i don't watch the flats on tv, except for Paris.

One of the reasons for making the stages shorter was to reduce doping. The riders said it was impossible to compete to even a decent level without artificial aids, which to some extent was true.

RichN95.

Mettan wrote:

For trivia - Would it possible for someone like Cancellara on an easy flat stage (with little wind) with say 5-10 km to go to time-trial his way off the front to a stage victory ?? - just wondering - don't know.

It's possible but very hard to do. 5km is probably the maximum distance you could do it from. It needs a bit of disorganisation from the bunch.

David Millar almost pulled it off in a race last month from 5km out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmg1auEFkiI

Kléber

Cancellara only has to go new the front of the bunch and there will be a queue of riders on his wheel to anticipate his every move. Assuming he had the jump to get 20 seconds on the bunch - which he doesn't really - he would then have to ride a solo TT against a multi-team time trial involving Columbia, Cervelo, Milram etc. Cancellara could try but nine times out of ten he'd be wasting his energy.

Mettan

But many of those riders are minutes slower - would the drafting make up for that in a final 5 - 10 k ? - just curious - assuming little wind.

What I mean to say is, many of those riders are significantly slower. Cancellara is quite far ahead of 95 % of the peleton - he's that good.

andrew_s

frenchfighter wrote:

One of the reasons for making the stages shorter was to reduce doping. The riders said it was impossible to compete to even a decent level without artificial aids, which to some extent was true.

Which is of course a load of cobblers.

The stages aren't any worse than the tougher sportives, and loads of undoped ordinary folk do them every year.
What they can't do is complete the stages as fast undoped as they can doped. There would only be any point making the stages easier if this eliminated the advantage that the doped rider had. Unfortunately it doesn't.

chriskempton

Strikes me that this a bit similar to the debate people have about cricket. The casual/new cricket fan prefers a bit of 20/20, but the connoisseur still likes a 5 day test. Today's stage was more like midweek county cricket, admittedly.

Like test cricket, Le Tour is steeped in tradition, and if you changed it too much, you'd risk alienating the staunch fan base. People who understand the racing enjoy bits that the uninitiated wouldn't, as they can grasp the battles being played out.

There's never been a tour in my lifetime where some of it wasn't boring, but it is 3 weeks long and they're only human, so they can't be flat out the whole time (with or without 'assistance'). Coming back to the cricket analogy - like a test match, the boring bits make the exciting bits more exciting - it's all in the anticipation.

MrChuck

Mettan wrote:

But many of those riders are minutes slower - would the drafting make up for that in a final 5 - 10 k ? - just curious - assuming little wind.

What I mean to say is, many of those riders are significantly slower.

He'd need a decent head start, and he wouldn't get it. There wouldn't be much of a gap to make up, because as somebody else pointed out as soon as he got anywhere near the front there'd be plenty of quick people marking him.

MrChuck

andrew_s wrote:

What they can't do is complete the stages as fast undoped as they can doped. There would only be any point making the stages easier if this eliminated the advantage that the doped rider had. Unfortunately it doesn't.

Recovery is a big factor too and doping helps with that.

frenchfighter

When it does work it is pretty incredible. This move of his is one of my favourites. Admittedly in the Tour he would have a lot harder time of it. He tried it in the Giro too but to no avail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjBMbYq-v0Y&feature=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWljwiet ... re=related

Kléber

andrew_s wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

One of the reasons for making the stages shorter was to reduce doping. The riders said it was impossible to compete to even a decent level without artificial aids, which to some extent was true.

Which is of course a load of cobblers.

The stages aren't any worse than the tougher sportives, and loads of undoped ordinary folk do them every year.
What they can't do is complete the stages as fast undoped as they can doped. There would only be any point making the stages easier if this eliminated the advantage that the doped rider had. Unfortunately it doesn't.

It's not as black and white as that. Long stages don't make riders dope but when a GT organiser starts stacking 220km mountain stages in the last week, it will sadly have some riders reaching for old habits and "recovery" products like testosterone and cortisone.

Also, in the final week a rider's blood values start to drop, the "benefits" of blood doping really come into play and the longer the stages, the more the riders are being exhausted to the point where their hormonal/haematological values are taking a real hit.

Much better to shrink the stages in the final week, 160km in a mountain stage is plenty, especially since the action is always concentrated in the final part of the day anyway.

chriskempton

andrew_s wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

One of the reasons for making the stages shorter was to reduce doping. The riders said it was impossible to compete to even a decent level without artificial aids, which to some extent was true.

Which is of course a load of cobblers.

The stages aren't any worse than the tougher sportives, and loads of undoped ordinary folk do them every year.
What they can't do is complete the stages as fast undoped as they can doped. There would only be any point making the stages easier if this eliminated the advantage that the doped rider had. Unfortunately it doesn't.

I don't think it is cobblers. How many sportives are 400k long like the old TDF stages were? And what's average speed of "undoped ordinary folk" in one of the tougher sportives?

A poor analogy to draw

frenchfighter

andrew_s wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

One of the reasons for making the stages shorter was to reduce doping. The riders said it was impossible to compete to even a decent level without artificial aids, which to some extent was true.

Which is of course a load of cobblers.

The stages aren't any worse than the tougher sportives, and loads of undoped ordinary folk do them every year.
What they can't do is complete the stages as fast undoped as they can doped. There would only be any point making the stages easier if this eliminated the advantage that the doped rider had. Unfortunately it doesn't.

But do they do that for three weeks in a row or just once in a blue moon with a week's rest either side...it is a bit different. If you look into it, you will find that what I said is 100% correct.

Mettan

frenchfighter wrote:

When it does work it is pretty incredible. This move of his is one of my favourites. Admittedly in the Tour he would have a lot harder time of it. He tried it in the Giro too but to no avail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjBMbYq-v0Y&feature=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWljwiet ... re=related

That's what I mean French - Cancellara's significantly quicker than 95 % of the peleton.

Mettan

MrChuck wrote:

Mettan wrote:

But many of those riders are minutes slower - would the drafting make up for that in a final 5 - 10 k ? - just curious - assuming little wind.

What I mean to say is, many of those riders are significantly slower.

He'd need a decent head start, and he wouldn't get it. There wouldn't be much of a gap to make up, because as somebody else pointed out as soon as he got anywhere near the front there'd be plenty of quick people marking him.

Yes, can see what you mean MC - he'd be marked.

Airwave

In a word it's all about drag.The only time the gc contenders can make time gains are TT&mountains.So the flat stages are there for anyone who fancies a stage win-from a breakaway or sprint finish.This is why you can get quiet a few meaningless stagesIf you had mountain top finishes all the time you would get some big time gaps which would have the same effect.Which would end up with the last week being a meaningless too.

Mettan

For trivia - how would Cancellara solo do against a Team like Cervelo - in a 50 k TT - very little wind ??

ie Cancellara v Team Time Trial.

afx237vi

frenchfighter wrote:

andrew_s wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

One of the reasons for making the stages shorter was to reduce doping. The riders said it was impossible to compete to even a decent level without artificial aids, which to some extent was true.

Which is of course a load of cobblers.

The stages aren't any worse than the tougher sportives, and loads of undoped ordinary folk do them every year.
What they can't do is complete the stages as fast undoped as they can doped. There would only be any point making the stages easier if this eliminated the advantage that the doped rider had. Unfortunately it doesn't.

But do they do that for three weeks in a row or just once in a blue moon with a week's rest either side...it is a bit different. If you look into it, you will find that what I said is 100% correct.

I'm not convinced. People dope to get a competitive advantage over their rivals. They're just as likely do that for a series of 150km stages as they are for 230km stages.

MrChuck

Mettan wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

Mettan wrote:

But many of those riders are minutes slower - would the drafting make up for that in a final 5 - 10 k ? - just curious - assuming little wind.

What I mean to say is, many of those riders are significantly slower.

He'd need a decent head start, and he wouldn't get it. There wouldn't be much of a gap to make up, because as somebody else pointed out as soon as he got anywhere near the front there'd be plenty of quick people marking him.

Yes, can see what you mean MC - he'd be marked.

Well, as one of those Tour of Switzerland videos shows it can happen, but 9 times out of 10 it wouldn't work and he'd just have burned up a lot of energy for nowt.

frenchfighter

For Cancellara you also have Stage 3 of 2007 Tour and of course his famous Milan San Remo win.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Send them off in groups containing one member of each team at say five minute intervals, these group members being completely random (my personal choice), or perhaps based on rank within team.

These small groups will keep the roadside fans entertained for a longer period, as groups would be going by for at least a period of 30 minutes.

Some groups might try and work together to catch up the initial five minutes of the group ahead... Could be major swings on a day by day basis on the overall classification.

All spectators, both live and televised, would get to see many sprint finishes.

Each group could have their own intermediate sprint/climb competition.

Team points could be given every stage for the cumulative time of all members in a team, but unlike the TTT, it will not dullen the individual competition.

Small groups will reduce the risk of nasty accidents.

If groups were completely random and say the top 2 GC riders are in different groups, there would be a delay in information about a speed-up reaching the other group (because the rival is not right there in front of them, like we see in these giant peletons). Riders would need to start thinking more for themselves.

No doubt it will never happen, but in my mind at least, it would spice up professional grand tour cycling!