Bianchi or Viner?

rolf_f

Today I survived my second longish ride in my born again cyclist career - just North of Knaresborough to just South of Darlington and back; a bit under 85 miles.

Thighs are now trying to tell me not to do it again but what do they know? So, as a reward for my efforts, I think I should get a new bike on the B2W scheme. I was thinking of an Alu Via Nironei which the shop reckons it might be able to source but they also suggested an Alu Carbon Via Nirone (both various Campag) but they then went and complicated the issue by showing me a Viner Dedalus and I'm now not so sure. Arguments in my head as follows:

Bianchi For:
Pretty bike (said in same voice as Raf Vallone in the Italian Job!)
Full Campag (Mirage or Veloce dep on model)
Long company history
Cheaper (in the case of the Alu model)
Rare in Leeds

Bianchi against:
Common as much (at least down South judging by L2B run)
Company not really what it was

Viner For:
Rare anywhere
Built to order to suit body shape and ability (even the standard framed bikes)
Company less changed since foundation

Viner Against:
Not really that much of a looker - Dedalus a bit garish graphics
Not full Campag (but no real objection to Miche calipers either)
Not such an old company (est ~1947 ish)

Haven't yet really considered top ups to increase the budget (eg Viner Complex) but interested in opinions. Probably favouring Viner at the moment. Any help to make a decision appreciated as I need to move fast!

PS it will be used for commuting in dry weather too! Lucky I have a safe undercover workplace bike parking facility.

spasypaddy

viner without a shadow of a doubt.

lost_in_thought

Viner, but I'm biased! I'm sure they'll swap out the calipers for you, they said I could have Miche Supertype or campag for the same price.

cjcp

LiT has a Viner, so she might be able to give you some info on the company and the service.

This gives some info on the Dedalus:

http://www.velocitydirect.co.uk/product ... ctid=06025

Says it's an entry-level frame, albeit the best. At that price, I'd look around once you've priced up a complete bike to see how it compares to other frames/framesets.

smegurmum

id say the bianchi via nirone veloce, but i think it need a £50 top up...

although id say take them for a ride, then decide

lost_in_thought

cjcp wrote:

LiT has a Viner, so she might be able to give you some info on the company and the service.

Yeah, that would have been helpful, wouldn't it? I'm rubbish.

They make excellent bikes, it seems, although take their time over it if it's a custom build. But then I didn't mind that. Definitely ride one, that's what swayed me in the end and made me give up on Parlee/Crumpton bikes.

It's a small company, definitely. Go to www.vinerbikes.com for more info.

DonDaddyD

There is nothing more beautiful that a Bianchi!

stuaff

cjcp wrote:

LiT has a Viner, so she might be able to give you some info on the company and the service.

This gives some info on the Dedalus:

http://www.velocitydirect.co.uk/product ... ctid=06025

Says it's an entry-level frame, albeit the best. At that price, I'd look around once you've priced up a complete bike to see how it compares to other frames/framesets.

Link's for my LBS, their main site describes Viner as 'the best road bike frame manufacturer' (certainly the high-end frames are in that league). I'm pretty certain that when I succumb to buying a road bike, a Viner would at least be on the shortlist, having read and heard many positive things about them. vinerbikes.com has a configurator, play around with it and you'll see you can have pretty much any spec you want (and can afford.

il_principe

StuAff wrote:

cjcp wrote:

LiT has a Viner, so she might be able to give you some info on the company and the service.

This gives some info on the Dedalus:

http://www.velocitydirect.co.uk/product ... ctid=06025

Says it's an entry-level frame, albeit the best. At that price, I'd look around once you've priced up a complete bike to see how it compares to other frames/framesets.

Link's for my LBS, their main site describes Viner as 'the best road bike frame manufacturer' (certainly the high-end frames are in that league). I'm pretty certain that when I succumb to buying a road bike, a Viner would at least be on the shortlist, having read and heard many positive things about them. vinerbikes.com has a configurator, play around with it and you'll see you can have pretty much any spec you want (and can afford.

VINER VINER VINER

bigmat

I like my Viner (Gladius), really nicely finished frame (even though its a made in Taiwan job). The Miche brakes (assuming they are the "Performance" ones mine came with), however, are rubbish. Replaced mine with some pre-skeleton Record calipers with KoolStop pads and the difference has been incredible.

Bianchis are very common down in London, the impression I get is that they are just like Trek / Specialized but for people who like the romanticism of Italian bikes, seem pretty mass-market but there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

biondino

MatHammond wrote:

Bianchis are very common down in London, the impression I get is that they are just like Trek / Specialized but for people who like the romanticism of Italian bikes, seem pretty mass-market but there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

+1. The Bianchi Dolomiti on display in Holdsworth is a thing of beauty, though. However, unless you love Celeste, the Viner will be that much more special - unless you're really sacrificing spec for cachet, then I'd add my name to the Viner posse.

DonDaddyD

MatHammond wrote:

Bianchis are very common down in London, the impression I get is that they are just like Trek / Specialized but for people who like the romanticism of Italian bikes, seem pretty mass-market but there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

It's that very thing - the romanticism of an Italian bike - that has made Bianchi popular to the point of being a fashion statement and therefor not romatic at all but a sad parody of itself.

Bianchi, thrive on exclusiveness, "A green bike, who would". It doesn't work if everyone rides them.

It's like a person who claims to love an Italian supercar and then proceeds to buy a Ferrari, when they could have bought a Masserati. Yes the Ferrari is arguably the better car, the Masserati, though out of the same factory is the purest/connoisseurs choice.

Breaks my heart to say it, but I would buy a Viner.

If every woman looked like Vikki Pendleton then no woman would be good looking = Bianchi.

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

Bianchis are very common down in London, the impression I get is that they are just like Trek / Specialized but for people who like the romanticism of Italian bikes, seem pretty mass-market but there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

It's that very thing - the romanticism of an Italian bike - that has made Bianchi popular to the point of being a fashion statement and therefor not romatic at all but a sad parody of itself.

Bianchi, thrive on exclusiveness, "A green bike, who would". It doesn't work if everyone rides them.

It's like a person who claims to love an Italian supercar and then proceeds to buy a Ferrari, when they could have bought a Masserati. Yes the Ferrari is arguably the better car, the Masserati, though out of the same factory is the purest/connoisseurs choice.

Breaks my heart to say it, but I would buy a Viner.

If every woman looked like Vikki Pendleton then no woman would be good looking = Bianchi.

@ DDD - nononononononono - Maserati = the Saab of the supercar world. Give me the choice of the prancing horse or a Maserati and the Ferrari wins hands down.

I'm not a Bianchi fan really!

rolf_f

DonDaddyD wrote:

It's like a person who claims to love an Italian supercar and then proceeds to buy a Ferrari, when they could have bought a Masserati. Yes the Ferrari is arguably the better car, the Masserati, though out of the same factory is the purest/connoisseurs choice.

That's exactly the analogy I thought of. A Bianchi is a bike that folk who know a little more about bikes than the average man on the Clapham omninbus might aspire to own. The Viner seems to be the bike the bike enthusiasts would desire. Same always applied to Ferrari/Maserati.

I do like Celeste but I doubt I could order a Bianchi in Celeste. Bit like ordering a German car in silver. Might look good but Imagination Factor = zero. Such a shame they don't do them in almost plain black with Celeste lettering like the old days - surely the choice of the discerning customer?

The Dolomiti is rather sweet (tbh DDD, pretty though a C2C is, I think no bicycles look better than the traditional steel framers with horizontal top tubes) though if I was after something traditional like that I suspect I'd go for a Bob Jackson.

Incidentally, you do sacrifice kit with the Viner. There is an overlap but you get slightly higher spec with the Bianchi for the same money. I think a carbon stayed Bianchi with Veloce is about the same price as a carbon stayed Viner with Mirage and Miche.

LiT - just wondering how big a difference the custom build makes to your comfort compared to your other bikes. Obviously, the bespoke element is reduced on the cheaper Viners but they do still build to fit you - but I'm wondering if it really makes such a difference. As for brakes, I think you do have to pay for upgrade from Miche at the bottom end of the range - more opinion appreciated on whether the Miche are really crap - the Viner race team apparently uses a Miche, Campag mix.

Weight of forum influence is now strongly pushing me to a Viner!

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

@ DDD - nononononononono - Maserati = the Saab of the supercar world. Give me the choice of the prancing horse or a Maserati and the Ferrari wins hands down.

I'm not a Bianchi fan really!

You know you should really forfeit your Prince with posts like that.

roger_merriman

any chance you can try them out?

I'd not be too worried about getting a individualistic bike as most high end bikes can be seen around london and the surrey lanes.

And image is funny old thing, campagnolo image is lot about heritage, and age. the odd thing is the shimano are older, only 10 years or so but older never the less, not that you'd know it looking at the images both companies portray and how they are seen.

rolf_f

Il Principe wrote:

@ DDD - nononononononono - Maserati = the Saab of the supercar world. Give me the choice of the prancing horse or a Maserati and the Ferrari wins hands down.

Well that just confuses me! I have a 1989 Saab 900!!

roger_merriman

Rolf F wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

@ DDD - nononononononono - Maserati = the Saab of the supercar world. Give me the choice of the prancing horse or a Maserati and the Ferrari wins hands down.

Well that just confuses me! I have a 1989 Saab 900!!

sadly lot of the car makers have been bought up so Maserati is Fiat owns Saab is GM. so some makes are barely more than just a badge, which is rather sad.

lost_in_thought

Rolf F wrote:

LiT - just wondering how big a difference the custom build makes to your comfort compared to your other bikes. Obviously, the bespoke element is reduced on the cheaper Viners but they do still build to fit you - but I'm wondering if it really makes such a difference.

OK, so the only comparison I can make on the customisation is between the Maxima I ended up getting and the bike I tried out, which was a build specific to Epic, but I can't remember what it was called. It was an OTP carbon frame which they had in stock, and of pretty similar geometry to the Maxima.

The OTP frame was great, fitted me well, and rode nicely. I had a slight feeling that the back tyre was flat, which it wasn't, but enjoyed the ride. It was good.

The Maxima is amazing. It's like the difference between B&W and colour TV - same basic content, but massively better. Once I get out on it I don't want to come back. It's stiff, responsive, and snappy, yet comfortable on long rides, and a lot of that is due to the customisation. And it fits. Like it was made for me... which it was. This obviously has an impact on comfort - the bike fits you as opposed to you fitting the bike. It's bound to be better.

What Viner also do that others don't (as much) is change the grade of carbon used in the tubes according to your weight and riding style, and your preferences vis a vis comfort or outright speed. Whether they can do that on an Alloy bike, I don't know.

cjcp

What grade of Alu is used for the Dedalus?

rolf_f

lost_in_thought wrote:

What Viner also do that others don't (as much) is change the grade of carbon used in the tubes according to your weight and riding style, and your preferences vis a vis comfort or outright speed. Whether they can do that on an Alloy bike, I don't know.

Don't think they do anything that fancy with the Alu frames - the geometries are pre set so the bespoke bit is limited to things like bar width, crank length etc though all useful stuff (of course, in theory you could be perfectly matched to a standard geometry anyway thus rendering the frame tailoring unneccessary!).

Dedalus seems to be made out of Columbus 7005.

Hopefully the shop can let me test at least one Bianchi and one Viner not that there is much in stock at the minute.

lost_in_thought

Rolf F wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

What Viner also do that others don't (as much) is change the grade of carbon used in the tubes according to your weight and riding style, and your preferences vis a vis comfort or outright speed. Whether they can do that on an Alloy bike, I don't know.

Don't think they do anything that fancy with the Alu frames - the geometries are pre set so the bespoke bit is limited to things like bar width, crank length etc though all useful stuff (of course, in theory you could be perfectly matched to a standard geometry anyway thus rendering the frame tailoring unneccessary!).

Dedalus seems to be made out of Columbus 7005.

Hopefully the shop can let me test at least one Bianchi and one Viner not that there is much in stock at the minute.

OK, so then to be honest it's really just the final fit that they personalise. Any good bike shop (IMHO) should do that for you, within reason.

Where are you based? If you can get to Epic Cycles, it's well worth the trip - they're the main UK Viner stockist.

cjcp

If it's Columbus 7005, I think that's the same tubing (triple butted, I think) on my old Tifosi CK4 (ah, I loved that bike...). The Tifosi frame and fork was a bit cheaper, but that was about five years ago. I stuck a TIME carbon/alu fork on it. Didn't dampen out as much road buzz as the carbon frame I've since bought, but it was still a lovely ride. Think it came out of the Merida factory and had the exact same paint job as a Pinarello.

rolf_f

lost_in_thought wrote:

Where are you based? If you can get to Epic Cycles, it's well worth the trip - they're the main UK Viner stockist.

Oop North - Leeds. One of the local shops is the only Northern Viner stockist so although a small shop it would influence my choice. Mind you, Worcestercestershire is hardly on your doorstep either is it?

cjcp wrote:

Didn't dampen out as much road buzz as the carbon frame I've since bought, but it was still a lovely ride.

Another reason why I should think about the Complex with its carbon seat stays.....

Slow Downcp

Rolf F wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Where are you based? If you can get to Epic Cycles, it's well worth the trip - they're the main UK Viner stockist.

Oop North - Leeds. One of the local shops is the only Northern Viner stockist so although a small shop it would influence my choice. Mind you, Worcestercestershire is hardly on your doorstep either is it?.

It's still worth paying a trip to Epic - Leeds to Tenbury isn't that far if you make the right choice and get it set up properly. Be prepared for bike porn overload though

lost_in_thought

Slow Downcp wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Where are you based? If you can get to Epic Cycles, it's well worth the trip - they're the main UK Viner stockist.

Oop North - Leeds. One of the local shops is the only Northern Viner stockist so although a small shop it would influence my choice. Mind you, Worcestercestershire is hardly on your doorstep either is it?.

It's still worth paying a trip to Epic - Leeds to Tenbury isn't that far if you make the right choice and get it set up properly. Be prepared for bike porn overload though

Well no, no it's not on my doorstep!

However, despite the presence of a (rude) Viner dealer in London, the 6 hour round trip was well worth it. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

rolf_f

lost_in_thought wrote:

However, despite the presence of a (rude) Viner dealer in London, the 6 hour round trip was well worth it. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

Slow Downcp wrote:

It's still worth paying a trip to Epic - Leeds to Tenbury isn't that far if you make the right choice and get it set up properly. Be prepared for bike porn overload though

I have decided to follow your good advice and am booked in for a session at Epic next week. Discussions with Chris at Epic and Mark at Viner UK all fill me with confidence even if the random confusing nature of the Viner range doesn't! Maxima probably is a good choice - saves getting lost in the hopeless maze of the lesser machines. Mind you, my probable choice now is rather more than the original intended budget - but I'm saying nowt til I return from Tenbury!

cjcp

You'll be cooking on gas if you get this beauty:

rolf_f

I'll probably be cooking on electric then! I don't deserve such a machine yet but what I am looking at is pretty nice even so!

cjcp

The most important thing is to get a good frame, then good wheels. You can always upgrade the groupset etc. An alu frame with a carbon rear end can give you good power transmission. I'm glad Epic are not near me.

stuaff

"Maxima probably is a good choice". Massive understatement there!! Seeing all the Viners (Maxima, Perfecta, X-Plus, and Magnifica) on my frequent visits to Velocity is part joy part torture. Wish the wrong lottery numbers would stop coming up.....