Afghanistan conflict

Frank the tank
Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
edited July 2009 in The bottom bracket
Why are our lads/lasses there?

Last year a friend of mine had his son killed there and today I learned another friends son has been maimed for life out there. AND FOR WHAT?

The whole place is a nestofcunts and we will never win. Our forces should protect our borders/ports/points of entry etc, not perishing in some godforsaken part of the world for no damn good reason.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
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Comments

  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,708
    The War On Terror (TM)

    Essentially, a group of people decided they did like the US and UK from interfering in their countries, so in order to sort out the problem, we went and interfered in their countries.

    Makes perfect sense when you think about it.
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    In spite of the lack of "smiley" I have to assume your tongue is stuck firmly in your cheek!

    I understand your inference.

    NO-ONE will put up a good enough case IMHO for our forces personnel to be perishing out there.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Why doesn't my head stop hurting as I bash it repeatedly against this brick wall? :roll:
  • davelakers
    davelakers Posts: 762
    Should the Taliban be given free reign to take control of Afghanistan again? Free to train fund and control terrorism funded by the heroin trade?
    Then will you allow them to take control of Pakistan (a new nuclear power)?

    The problem is a world problem. I see no other solution!!
  • fast as fupp
    fast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    davelakers wrote:
    Should the Taliban be given free reign to take control of Afghanistan again? Free to train fund and control terrorism funded by the heroin trade?
    Then will you allow them to take control of Pakistan (a new nuclear power)?

    The problem is a world problem. I see no other solution!!

    maybe if the U.S. and its lapdogs ( Brit Govt.) werent so keep on screwing muslim countries for oil etc then those countries wouldnt be a breeding ground for terrorism?

    we didnt send troops to bail the yanks out in vietnam-we didnt become a target until we sent troops to iraq/afghanistan
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • Gavin Gilbert
    Gavin Gilbert Posts: 4,019
    There goes your Very Small View Of The World again...

    First up, if Afghanistan falls then Pakistan is next. And probably the former Soviet Republics that border it to the north. The likelyhood of this dragging Iran, India, China or Russia into a larger conflict is very high.

    Secondly, whilst the country itself isn't worth spit it does occupy a vital geographic location vis-s-via energy security. There are several (proposed) pipelines running through Afghanistan from Southern Asia to India (and then onto Western consumers). There's plenty on Google if you want to read further

    Thirdly, left to their own devices an Islamist government would once again allow in the terrorist networks, increasing the chances of attacks on the West and on Western interests. Whilst there may well be f*ck all worth bombing in Hucknall this particular Londoner is grateful for the efforts of our troops.
  • nicensleazy
    nicensleazy Posts: 2,310
    Everytime I think about this it makes my heart sad. Looking at the newspaper on the way to work the other day, they report the deaths of these brave lads on the same page as Jordan and that muppet of a husband.
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    I can assure you there is fu*k all worth bombing in Hucknall but Hucknallites are perishing, as I've said, in our names. I'm not going to get into a debate with you GG but if Islamists are the problem to the extent you sugest let's start sorting them out in our own back yard for a start.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • toshmund
    toshmund Posts: 390
    You cannot fight people who do not value their own lives, and the Russians did not exactly fight using the Geneva Convention - they never broke the Afghans. The only way to win this war is to get the good Afghan on-side and for them to Police their own country. Until some other fuel source is found, the world will be dependent on oil producing countries.

    Personally, I did 11 years in the army. Was in Saudi/Iraq and Kuwait for 90/91. You might pledge allegiance to the Queen, your true commitment is to your mates though...and at the end of the day. It is voluntary. Politicians are still complete pr1cks though!

    We should be more like the Israeli's...Northern Ireland would not have dragged on for 300 years with them. Kill one of us, we will kick the f##k out of you, etc etc
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    Toshmund wrote:

    We should be more like the Israeli's...Northern Ireland would not have dragged on for 300 years with them.

    quite - it would have dragged on for 2,000 years... ;)
  • GeorgeShaw
    GeorgeShaw Posts: 764
    Maybe we shouldn't have given them arms when they were fighting the Russians ...
  • Surf-Matt
    Surf-Matt Posts: 5,952
    I think it's a total outrage. We are fighting a "war" that's nothing to do with us under false pretences and we can't even afford to equip our troops properly.

    Soldiers don't NEED to do foot patrols with zero armour - they need proper APCs and helicopters.

    But that's not what's important - we need to get the hell out of there and get the politicians who have sent them there in front of a judge and jury.

    I nearly joined the Marines (passed a POC and AIB). If I was fighting this war, I'd be pne angry little man.
  • chuckcork
    chuckcork Posts: 1,471
    Geopolitics 101, anyone?

    More to do really with payback, you (Taliban) sheltered and supported our enemies (9/11) and are fighting our friends (current Afghan government, Pakistan) and risking destabilising the entire region of Central Asia (oil).

    More than enough reason as a result to send the troops in, heck, there have been less reasons in enough other now forgotten conflicts than this one.

    As for Northern Ireland, who exactly would you kicking the sh!t out of, and expect to take collective responsibility for the crimes of the IRA? The Irish Republic who didn't have anything (much) to do with it, or other British citizens who could expect the British government not to carpet bomb their estates because criminals were using them for cover? Perhaps the US for happily allowing NorAid to raise fund for the bombs and guns used to kill British soldiers and assorted civilians? Libya for supplying weapons shipments?
    'Twas Mulga Bill, from Eaglehawk, that caught the cycling craze....
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Toshmund wrote:
    We should be more like the Israeli's...Northern Ireland would not have dragged on for 300 years with them. Kill one of us, we will kick the f##k out of you, etc etc

    Israel has existed for 61 years as a nation state. Just because it has lasted 61 years does not guarantee its long term survival. And all of that military aid from the USA could well dry up one day.

    Look how invincible Sparta looked in 404BC, then look what happened to it. And there are plenty more examples throughout history of small, militarily powerful states being destroyed very, very quickly.

    Even nuclear weapons won't protect Israel indefinitely, as other countries would only need a few to destory Israel, which means that nuclear proliferation in the Near and Middle East would effectively neutralise Israel's nuclear deterrent.

    Anyway, this is meant to be about Afghanistan, not Israel, so I'll leave this subject alone now.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    As far as I was aware, the official line is that Afganistan, without any Western presence provides a serious hotbed for terrorism. It's effectively a counter-terrorist war.

    Apparantly.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • innocenti
    innocenti Posts: 33
    As far as I am aware 9/11 was planned and organised in Afghanistan. 7/7 was planned and organised a few miles over the border in Pakistan. Anyone who seriously thinks that if we pull out the jihadists desire to inflict murder and mayhem on western civilians will go away is liviing in fantasy land.
  • chuckcork
    chuckcork Posts: 1,471
    johnfinch wrote:
    Look how invincible Sparta looked in 404BC, then look what happened to it. And there are plenty more examples throughout history of small, militarily powerful states being destroyed very, very quickly.

    Typically by barbarians who fought on their own terms and not their opponents, e.g. success of Mongol light cavalry against European heavy cavalry. With the battleground and tactics chosen on their own terms the Mongols repeatedly defeated their more powerful opponents.
    'Twas Mulga Bill, from Eaglehawk, that caught the cycling craze....
  • volvine
    volvine Posts: 409
    the problem now is we simply cannot pull out we are far to commited now and to just leave would be far more damaging long term than to see it through.

    the simple fact of the matter is as long as the Americans continue to bully the contries that supply oil we will always be at war with someone.

    OIL OIL OIL
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    chuckcork wrote:
    More to do really with payback, you (Taliban) sheltered and supported our enemies (9/11) and are fighting our friends (current Afghan government, Pakistan) and risking destabilising the entire region of Central Asia (oil).

    using the same tortured logic, you could have made a pretty convincing case for invading the Irish Republic back in the 60s and 70s...

    it all depends which version of events you tend to believe....
  • toshmund
    toshmund Posts: 390
    chuckcork wrote:
    Geopolitics 101, anyone?

    As for Northern Ireland, who exactly would you kicking the sh!t out of, and expect to take collective responsibility for the crimes of the IRA? The Irish Republic who didn't have anything (much) to do with it, or other British citizens who could expect the British government not to carpet bomb their estates because criminals were using them for cover? Perhaps the US for happily allowing NorAid to raise fund for the bombs and guns used to kill British soldiers and assorted civilians? Libya for supplying weapons shipments?

    I agree with you, there were a surprisingly low number of active players - but you do make Martyrs out of them when they go, so you have the follow on. Irish Republic...you are having a laugh with that one though.

    I don't want to hijack the topic. I only raised NI as an example because the British Army is regarded as the expert of counter-insurgency/anti terrorist warfare after what it learned in NI, along with the "hearts and minds" tactics. Whereas the American's just undo it all, by being just a little bit sh1t really.

    In one documentary I saw, the Afghan Taliban suspect was found with a rifle, was covered in the powder from firing a rifle, but they still had to release him for lack of forensic evidence. If you want the military to do a job, don't tie one arm behind the back. I suppose that is the ethos I was getting at.
  • chuckcork
    chuckcork Posts: 1,471
    softlad wrote:
    chuckcork wrote:
    More to do really with payback, you (Taliban) sheltered and supported our enemies (9/11) and are fighting our friends (current Afghan government, Pakistan) and risking destabilising the entire region of Central Asia (oil).

    using the same tortured logic, you could have made a pretty convincing case for invading the Irish Republic back in the 60s and 70s...

    it all depends which version of events you tend to believe....

    Who were the Irish fighting? The Welsh?
    'Twas Mulga Bill, from Eaglehawk, that caught the cycling craze....
  • innocenti
    innocenti Posts: 33
    volvine wrote:
    the problem now is we simply cannot pull out we are far to commited now and to just leave would be far more damaging long term than to see it through.

    the simple fact of the matter is as long as the Americans continue to bully the contries that supply oil we will always be at war with someone.

    OIL OIL OIL

    Where is the Oil in Afghanistan? And how have the Americans benefited from the oil in Iraq? They haven't. The Iraqi's have control of their own oil fields and have been auctioning them off to the highest bidders including the chinese. Bashing the Americans is cheap and easy but get your facts right first.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8125731.stm
  • fast as fupp
    fast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    There goes your Very Small View Of The World again...

    First up, if Afghanistan falls then Pakistan is next. And probably the former Soviet Republics that border it to the north. The likelyhood of this dragging Iran, India, China or Russia into a larger conflict is very high.

    Secondly, whilst the country itself isn't worth spit it does occupy a vital geographic location vis-s-via energy security. There are several (proposed) pipelines running through Afghanistan from Southern Asia to India (and then onto Western consumers). There's plenty on Google if you want to read further

    Thirdly, left to their own devices an Islamist government would once again allow in the terrorist networks, increasing the chances of attacks on the West and on Western interests. Whilst there may well be f*ck all worth bombing in Hucknall this particular Londoner is grateful for the efforts of our troops.

    did you copy that out of the "dick cheney book of rightwing sh1te"?

    see also the domino theory " gee hank, if we let those damn commies take over vietnam next thing you know theyll be goose stepping straight down main st usa"

    just wondered like
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    chuckcork wrote:

    Who were the Irish fighting? The Welsh?

    sorry, you'll have to explain that one.....
  • chuckcork
    chuckcork Posts: 1,471
    softlad wrote:
    chuckcork wrote:

    Who were the Irish fighting? The Welsh?

    sorry, you'll have to explain that one.....

    Why? It makes as much sense as what you suggested.
    'Twas Mulga Bill, from Eaglehawk, that caught the cycling craze....
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    chuckcork wrote:
    Why? It makes as much sense as what you suggested.

    to you, perhaps....

    in case you mised it the first time, I was simply saying that if you use the same precept that took the UK into Afghanistan, it would not have been unreasonable to invade the Irish Republic...

    Both are ridiculous suggestions, incidentally and I'm still struggling to see what 'The Welsh' have got to do with it.......
  • volvine
    volvine Posts: 409
    Where is the Oil in Afghanistan? And how have the Americans benefited from the oil in Iraq? They haven't. The Iraqi's have control of their own oil fields and have been auctioning them off to the highest bidders including the chinese. Bashing the Americans is cheap and easy but get your facts right first.

    open your eyes mate the American goverment won't be happy until they have their fingers in all the pies in that region where a massive amount of oil has to pass through it's all about controlling the area and don't try telling me the Americans haven't benifited from oil in Iraq they will be recieving back handers left right and centre.

    p.s not bashing the Americans just the tossers they have in charge just like the U.K
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    chuckcork wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    Look how invincible Sparta looked in 404BC, then look what happened to it. And there are plenty more examples throughout history of small, militarily powerful states being destroyed very, very quickly.

    Typically by barbarians who fought on their own terms and not their opponents, e.g. success of Mongol light cavalry against European heavy cavalry. With the battleground and tactics chosen on their own terms the Mongols repeatedly defeated their more powerful opponents.

    Same with the Spartans, most famously at Thermopylae. The problem comes when you are no longer able to dictate terms of battle.

    How do you define a barbarian?
  • innocenti
    innocenti Posts: 33
    volvine wrote:
    Where is the Oil in Afghanistan? And how have the Americans benefited from the oil in Iraq? They haven't. The Iraqi's have control of their own oil fields and have been auctioning them off to the highest bidders including the chinese. Bashing the Americans is cheap and easy but get your facts right first.

    open your eyes mate the American goverment won't be happy until they have their fingers in all the pies in that region where a massive amount of oil has to pass through it's all about controlling the area and don't try telling me the Americans haven't benifited from oil in Iraq they will be recieving back handers left right and centre.

    p.s not bashing the Americans just the tossers they have in charge just like the U.K

    So no proof then? No links? Didnt think so.
  • volvine
    volvine Posts: 409
    So no proof then? No links? Didnt think so.

    so we should all believe the reports we are given then hmmmmm
    i wonder if Al Jazeera report the same stories????

    just for thought not proof
    http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv8n1/oilsk.htm