*Spoliers* Tour de France talk *Spoilers*

Jamey

This is hilarious:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/spo ... 907271935/

Kieran_Burns

Jamey wrote:

This is hilarious:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/spo ... 907271935/

My God - they copied it from the BBC web-site!

jedster

DDD,

Everything I've read about Contador and suspicions assumes that his TT ability relates to sprinting/accelerating on a flat.

Not really. As I understand it there are three clear disciplines each with different physiological priorities:

1 climbing - sustained power to weight. The best climbers combine very large CV capacities with low body weight. Contodor is the the obvious example but the Schlecks and "The Chicken" fit well too. Explosive power (lots of fast twitch fibres) is not that important given that you have to keep very high levels of CV output for an hour.

2. sprinting - peak power output. Sprinters need to be able to apply a huge amount of torque but for very short periods. This is mainly about fast twitch muscle fibres - expect good sprinters to be muscley but also that those muscles have a high proportion of fast twitch fibres . I guess Cavs closing 200m are just about anaerobic - CV capacity is not that important.

3. time trialling - sustained power output. Actually very similar requirements to climbers except you'd ideally accept a bit of extra body mass in return for larger heart and lungs given that you will typically not be fighting gravity as much. These guys don't tend to have big muscles (they dont need peak power output) but they do tend to be a bit taller than climbers to allow for bigger CV machinery (Cancellara, Armstrong, Boardman, Millar, etc)

Clearly there is more of an overlap between climbing and TTing than sprinting. Don't get me wrong, given what a phenomenal athelete AC is, I'm not surprised that he can TT well. I am surprised that he can beat all the TTers with optimised physiques on te falt sections of a TT...

All that said, I'm not saying that he IS a doper just that his performance is does raise questions. BTW, did anyone else interpret LA's comments about how Contador is a stronger rider than he was at his peak as being a backhanded complement, i.e., "and if you think I was doping, what about this bloke..."

Fabtastic Tour though. Really loved it. At the risk of sounding miserable, does anyone have the feeling that Wiggo will struggle to improve on this year? Tactics and a bit more support on the climbs could be areas of improvement but I can't help feeling that AC will be if anything better and better supported, the Schlecks are still developing fast and even LA may be better an extra year into his come back... I'd love to be proved wrong.

J [/quote]

cjcp

jedster wrote:

3. time trialling - sustained power output. Actually very similar requirements to climbers except you'd ideally accept a bit of extra body mass in return for larger heart and lungs given that you will typically not be fighting gravity as much. These guys don't tend to have big muscles (they dont need peak power output) but they do tend to be a bit taller than climbers to allow for bigger CV machinery (Cancellara, Armstrong, Boardman, Millar, etc)

I have a feeling that Boardman was National Hill Climb champ in his day. More suited to those short, sharp power climbs we have in the UK.

Fabtastic Tour though. Really loved it. At the risk of sounding miserable, does anyone have the feeling that Wiggo will struggle to improve on this year? Tactics and a bit more support on the climbs could be areas of improvement but I can't help feeling that AC will be if anything better and better supported, the Schlecks are still developing fast and even LA may be better an extra year into his come back... I'd love to be proved wrong.

J

[/quote][/quote]

Wiggo's ability will be a better climber next year, and he would have had more of a shout if Vande Velde had been fitter. He needs a stronger team for the mountains, rather like Evans. This year, they had a split between GC contender and green jersey potential in Farrer - (a bit like Lotto had with McKewen and Evans). Anyone know if he's going to do the Vuelta to get some more climbing under his belt?

I've a feeling (based on nothing but feeling) that Frank Schleck has reached his peak, and that Andy is now the main man. Saxo Bank need more help if they're going to challenge AC; it's no good Andy S doing all the work up the mountains.

I think AC will have more to worry about next year, and more so if they don't have the TTT or he doesn't have a strong team for that purpose. Look at the guys Astana had this year. Take away that and AC's under a bit more pressure.

Next year, there'll be LA in a different team, Wiggo (hopefully with a stronger team), Nibali, Kreuzinger (maybe), Van den Broek, Gesink (who will hopefully be given the Rabobank leadership), the Schlecks and maybe even Basso. What's The Chicken going to do if he's now back racing? Can he race next year? And what about Vino? If they're all able to gang up on AC, it'll will make things interesting.

attica

I'm looking forward to seeing Rasmussen Time Trialling again

dirk_van_gently

Jamey wrote:

This is hilarious:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/spo ... 907271935/

That is bloody priceless

jonginge

Attica wrote:

I'm looking forward to seeing Rasmussen Time Trialling again

The 2005 version was funny hilarious, the 2007 version was funny dodgy.

Can't see teams with Vino or Rasmussen getting an invite to the tour.

Was disappointed by Kreuziger this year. Thought he would do better, only scraped the top 10 by riding his own race on Ventoux. Good ride from Nibali, progressed from last year. The best ride was by Christophe Le Mevel, though. Whoda thought that before the start?

DonDaddyD

Jedster, what I meant, which I think you may be explained further in my post is that Contador doesn't have to be a powerful sprinter to be good at time trialling. In fact its quite the contary, you would need a combination of being able to go fast and stamina, like a middle distance runner.

cjcp

JonGinge wrote:

Can't see teams with Vino or Rasmussen getting an invite to the tour.

Very much hope you're right. I'd be very surprised if Preudhomme (sp.?) lets Rasmasmamamsmsmsmsensinjinson back in after the hand-shaking etc that went on from the car prior to his removal. IMO, Vino just took the wee wee the way he retired.

cjcp

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-st ... oping-test

tardington

So did someone actually win?

I don't know *proud*

attica

Not Cav Apparently

tardington

Oh Attica!

attica

Lance didn't do too well either

tardington

Oh Attica! x2

attica

Sorry, couldn't resist:)

Bugly

IN general powerful sprinters suck big time in TTs. Reason being sprinters require fast twitch fibres for massive anaerobic bursts - TTs require endurance. There are TT's that have some sprint ability and some sprinters that don't embarrass themselves in sprints but they are disciplines with contrary demands on the physique of the cyclist

DonDaddyD

OK, what I meant.

Everything I've read about Contador and suspicions assumes that his TT ability relates to sprinting/accelerating on a flat.

In this sentence what I meant was that everyone who has (MattHammond, Biondino and others) claimed something suspicious about Contador's ability to climb and TT, assumes that his TT ability is unrelated to his ability to climb and related to the ability to sprint.

This isn't the case and I go on to explain it here:

Sprinting = big muscular guy, reason: fast twitch muscles/accelerate to very fasts speeds. This is true for cyclists i.e Cavendish, Hoy etc.

However, in a TT all Contador has to do is get his bike to go fast and keep it there. He doesn't need to accelerate at Cavendish, Wiggins etc levels all he needs to do is get to that speed and sustain it. I wouldn't be surprised if his initial acceleration is slower than the others but over the course of a TT his overall average is higher because he is better at maintaining speed over a course.

This is my, somewhat feeble, attempt at explaining that Contador doesn't need to sprint or accelerate to be good at Time Trials, he just has to maintain a high average speed. Being able to is stamina related.

If in a sprinting contest he out sprinted/accelerated the riders you mentioned and other dedicated sprinters, given his frame, then I'd be crying steroids and EPO from the roof tops.

This sentence reinforces the point I was trying to make.

In conclusion, it isn't surprising at all that Contador is both good at Time Trials and great at Climbing.

Bugly

DonDaddyD wrote:

OK, what I meant.
snip

In conclusion, it isn't surprising at all that Contador is both good at Time Trials and great at Climbing.

Actually it is damn surprising a great TT being a climber is almost as likely as a being a sprinter. Very unlikely as a pure climber such as Contador does not have the bulk to push big gears into clean air. Thats why pure climbers and pure sprinters tend to ride in the protection of the peloton and only come out and play on the mountains where their low body weight gives them an advantage.

To me AC's newly found TT ability this year is a little alarming.

The Prodigy

Bugly wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

OK, what I meant.
snip

In conclusion, it isn't surprising at all that Contador is both good at Time Trials and great at Climbing.

Actually it is damn surprising a great TT being a climber is almost as likely as a being a sprinter. Very unlikely as a pure climber such as Contador does not have the bulk to push big gears into clean air. Thats why pure climbers and pure sprinters tend to ride in the protection of the peloton and only come out and play on the mountains where their low body weight gives them an advantage.

To me AC's newly found TT ability this year is a little alarming.

Newly found it has he???

jonginge

The Prodigy wrote:

Bugly wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

OK, what I meant.
snip

In conclusion, it isn't surprising at all that Contador is both good at Time Trials and great at Climbing.

Actually it is damn surprising a great TT being a climber is almost as likely as a being a sprinter. Very unlikely as a pure climber such as Contador does not have the bulk to push big gears into clean air. Thats why pure climbers and pure sprinters tend to ride in the protection of the peloton and only come out and play on the mountains where their low body weight gives them an advantage.

To me AC's newly found TT ability this year is a little alarming.

Newly found it has he???

Indeed no. I'm getting a bit of deja vu. Let's go back a few pages: http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... p=15493281

DonDaddyD

Bugly wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

OK, what I meant.
snip

In conclusion, it isn't surprising at all that Contador is both good at Time Trials and great at Climbing.

Actually it is damn surprising a great TT being a climber is almost as likely as a being a sprinter. Very unlikely as a pure climber such as Contador does not have the bulk to push big gears into clean air. Thats why pure climbers and pure sprinters tend to ride in the protection of the peloton and only come out and play on the mountains where their low body weight gives them an advantage.

To me AC's newly found TT ability this year is a little alarming.

I'm starting to see concentic circles....

Contador doesn't have the bulk to push the big gears as fast as bulkier cyclists. There are however many other ways and different combination of methods to achieve going fast on a bike than pushing the biggest gear possible.

Moreover, its a TT, Contador doesn't need to accelerate as fast as the other riders, he just needs to accelerate at a decent rate getting his bike up to speed and keep it there - a combination of speed and stamina.

I think I've said this before....

Bugly

the thing Contador is built like a traditional climber - not a rouleur, normal traditional climbers do not TT well they dont have the build for it.

His time trialling is amazing for a pure climber - I cannot think of another pure climber in the past that could TT like that. Its not about accelleration but about maintaining the 50kph speed on flats. Its NOT NATURAL IMO :roll:

roger_merriman

Bugly wrote:

the thing Contador is built like a traditional climber - not a rouleur, normal traditional climbers do not TT well they dont have the build for it.

His time trialling is amazing for a pure climber - I cannot think of another pure climber in the past that could TT like that. Its not about accelleration but about maintaining the 50kph speed on flats. Its NOT NATURAL IMO :roll:

maybe he's clean manybe not, but the body types = type of cyclist are rough rules.

gabriel959

Bugly wrote:

the thing Contador is built like a traditional climber - not a rouleur, normal traditional climbers do not TT well they dont have the build for it.

His time trialling is amazing for a pure climber - I cannot think of another pure climber in the past that could TT like that. Its not about accelleration but about maintaining the 50kph speed on flats. Its NOT NATURAL IMO :roll:

He has always been a good TTer though - he was under23 Spanish champion and always performing pretty well.

msw

Bugly wrote:

the thing Contador is built like a traditional climber - not a rouleur, normal traditional climbers do not TT well they dont have the build for it.

His time trialling is amazing for a pure climber - I cannot think of another pure climber in the past that could TT like that. Its not about accelleration but about maintaining the 50kph speed on flats. Its NOT NATURAL IMO :roll:

Coppi, Anquetil and Merckx each held the world hour record. Not bad climbers any of them.

As to whether or not they were "pure climbers" - I suspect "pure" in this context might means something like "can't TT or sprint", in which case your argument is irrefutable ;-)

[EDIT - rereading, maybe by "pure climbers" you meant "people who are that skinny". But I'd still say Merckx & Coppi were't bulky. And what about Wiggins, who finished among the best on big mountain stages? A reasonable TTer.]

DonDaddyD

Here's some crose-eyed logic.

If pure climbers don't usually make good TT'ers. Then Contador who is good at the TT can't be a pure climber. He is just able to climb better than anyone else at the moment... :roll:

All this looking at body types to ascertain whether or not a person is going to be good at something is utter bollox.

At his height Tyson should have been a middle weight or lighter.

Usain Bolt should be a 200, 400 and possible 800 metre specialist.

At 6ft+ Marco Van Basten should have been a defender and not regarded as the Worlds most complete striker.

At his weight Prince Naseem should never have been able to punch so hard.

always_tyred

I think the issue isn't so much whether or not it is possible, or indeed common, for decent climbers to be decent TTers. Indurain, Basso, Armstrong, many more.

The issue is more to do with the improvement. Just as Wiggins has been questioned byt he media due to sudden climbing prowess, Contador, although never particuarly bad at TTing, has improved by a couple of minutes over a 40km course compared to his competition. Now, despite contesting every single mountain stage right at the front, he's as fast as Cancellara (who is a rare TTing tallent) despite the fact that the latter had been pootling around in the bus for a few days in the hope of getting a stage win.

But it was ever thus. The GC winner is the guy who deteriorates least quickly over 3 weeks.

Rich158

DonDaddyD wrote:

Bugly wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

OK, what I meant.
snip

In conclusion, it isn't surprising at all that Contador is both good at Time Trials and great at Climbing.

Actually it is damn surprising a great TT being a climber is almost as likely as a being a sprinter. Very unlikely as a pure climber such as Contador does not have the bulk to push big gears into clean air. Thats why pure climbers and pure sprinters tend to ride in the protection of the peloton and only come out and play on the mountains where their low body weight gives them an advantage.

To me AC's newly found TT ability this year is a little alarming.

I'm starting to see concentic circles....

Contador doesn't have the bulk to push the big gears as fast as bulkier cyclists. There are however many other ways and different combination of methods to achieve going fast on a bike than pushing the biggest gear possible.

Moreover, its a TT, Contador doesn't need to accelerate as fast as the other riders, he just needs to accelerate at a decent rate getting his bike up to speed and keep it there - a combination of speed and stamina.

I think I've said this before....

Wrong, if you can't accelerate quickly enough you're going to lose precious seconds from the outset. Armstrong did a two up TT when he first started on the comeback trail and his partner stated it's not how long long he can hold 30mph that makes him so good, it's how quickly he gets there. Without decent acceleration you'll lose time at the start and at every corner. Any half decent time trailist will tell you it's how quickly you get back up to speed that counts.

Hill climbing ability is a question of simple maths, power to weight ratio coupled with the aerobic ability to suffer for long periods of time. This is the reason hill climbers tend to be lighter as a general rule, they don't need as much power to achieve a higher power to weight ratio than the larger guys, what they do need is a good aerobic capacity and the ability to suffer the pain of a long climb.

always_tyred

Rich - none of that is particularly correct. A long mountain climb is not an uphill time trial. Climbers like the Schlecks, Contador, Simoni, Pantani, etc. were so brilliant because they can/could sprint uphill. Its not the most efficient or quickest way for even them to get to the top, but the guys lke Ullrich, Wiggins, Indurain and Sastre are less able to toerate changes in tempo, so on the long climbs either have to let the little guys go, or risk blowing up.

The mental aspect of being dropped is important.
The lack of a wheel to follow or even being unable to receive a tow should not be discounted.