Hill reps

amaferanga

Pokerface wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Staying seated during a climb is by far the most efficient way to get up a climb

You mean marginally more efficient don't you?

No - I meant by far. Otherwise I would have said marginally.

I didn't know that. Can you point me to the research that shows this please.

deal

amaferanga wrote:

People that don't get out of the saddle for hills very often tend to find it very hard when they do get out of the saddle to climb.

This is me. I did alot of mtbing before i started road cycling and developed the habit of completely avoiding standing up - standing up on steep climbs with a loose surface isnt wise. I really should make an effort to improve this weakness I can only stand up for very short periods before the muscles tire.

Pokerface

amaferanga wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Staying seated during a climb is by far the most efficient way to get up a climb

You mean marginally more efficient don't you?

No - I meant by far. Otherwise I would have said marginally.

I didn't know that. Can you point me to the research that shows this please.

Link to an abstract on the research: http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abstrac ... nav=search

amaferanga

Pokerface wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Staying seated during a climb is by far the most efficient way to get up a climb

You mean marginally more efficient don't you?

No - I meant by far. Otherwise I would have said marginally.

I didn't know that. Can you point me to the research that shows this please.

Link to an abstract on the research: http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abstrac ... nav=search

Quoting the abstract:

GE and EC were, respectively, 22.4 +/- 1.5% (CV = 5.6%) and 4.69 +/- 0.33 kJ[middle dot]L-1 (CV = 5.7%) and were not different between level seated, uphill seated, or uphill standing conditions

Pokerface

amaferanga wrote:

Quoting the abstract:

GE and EC were, respectively, 22.4 +/- 1.5% (CV = 5.6%) and 4.69 +/- 0.33 kJ[middle dot]L-1 (CV = 5.7%) and were not different between level seated, uphill seated, or uphill standing conditions

The way I read it is that refers to external efficiency? Maybe I've got it all wrong then!

Read this link and tell me if it indicates whether seated is more efficient than standing: http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... away-18460

amaferanga

I think there're lots of variables involved (speed, cadence, training, etc.) so it'd be wrong to say one is more efficient than the other. That was my understanding of it, hence why I was surprised when you said sitting was more efficient by far.

Not sure what that article really shows as the research it quotes isn't referenced.

sportbilly1976

Bronzie wrote:

sportbilly1976 wrote:

surely going up a hill slowly in a big gear will put extra, unecessary strain on both the chain and teeth on the cassette / chainring too?

If guys like Cav and Petacchi can knock out 1300W during sprints using the same drivetrain as us mere mortals, I don't think damaging it should be an issue!

sorry - I seem to have not made my point clear....

if Bhima is going up a hill and doing this is in a repeatedly harder gear to the point that he is stood up on the pedals pushing down yet stationary...surely there is a likelihood, eventually, of him wearing down the teeth on the drivetrain and getting "slippage" due to the pressure being applied....

Cav & Petacchi may well be able to develop such power in a sprint, but they are going at 50+kmh, as opposed to mashing a big gear uphill at very slow speeds.

Pokerface

sportbilly1976 wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

sportbilly1976 wrote:

surely going up a hill slowly in a big gear will put extra, unecessary strain on both the chain and teeth on the cassette / chainring too?

If guys like Cav and Petacchi can knock out 1300W during sprints using the same drivetrain as us mere mortals, I don't think damaging it should be an issue!

sorry - I seem to have not made my point clear....

if Bhima is going up a hill and doing this is in a repeatedly harder gear to the point that he is stood up on the pedals pushing down yet stationary...surely there is a likelihood, eventually, of him wearing down the teeth on the drivetrain and getting "slippage" due to the pressure being applied....

Cav & Petacchi may well be able to develop such power in a sprint, but they are going at 50+kmh, as opposed to mashing a big gear uphill at very slow speeds.

Force applied on the chain/gears is irrelevant of speed. 1300w is 1300w - whether you are going 5mph or 50mph. If you are climbing a 25% gradient at 9MPH you should be putting out as much power (watts) as a sprinter doing about 47MPH on the flat. If I got the wattage calculator right!

freehub

That's weird, I've done a 25% gradient at 9mph and I certainly cant achieve 47mph on the flat, I'd not go up at 9mph again though I felt like I was going to faint and throw up.

stevewj

I did two specific hill sessions in Feb to April once a week.
5 x a fairly steep hill of about 2mins in highest gear I could (53/12 to half way then had to drop down when cadence droped below 40) grinding up in the saddle. Then after a couple of weeks of this alternated with 5 x 1.66 miles shallower hill but hard work in as high a gear as I could with a cadence of 40 to 50 as fast as I could. This hill was done at an average speed of just on 20mph.
Result - on a regualr ten mile tt with a one mile steady climb on it three times (3 lap course) I was going up it last year at a max of 19mph dropping to 17 by the top. On the two races I've done this year I've maintained 22mph all the way to the top.

freehub

Aaand how steep was this drag you get 20mph up?

Murr X

Pokerface wrote:

sportbilly1976 wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

sportbilly1976 wrote:

surely going up a hill slowly in a big gear will put extra, unecessary strain on both the chain and teeth on the cassette / chainring too?

If guys like Cav and Petacchi can knock out 1300W during sprints using the same drivetrain as us mere mortals, I don't think damaging it should be an issue!

sorry - I seem to have not made my point clear....

if Bhima is going up a hill and doing this is in a repeatedly harder gear to the point that he is stood up on the pedals pushing down yet stationary...surely there is a likelihood, eventually, of him wearing down the teeth on the drivetrain and getting "slippage" due to the pressure being applied....

Cav & Petacchi may well be able to develop such power in a sprint, but they are going at 50+kmh, as opposed to mashing a big gear uphill at very slow speeds.

Force applied on the chain/gears is irrelevant of speed. 1300w is 1300w - whether you are going 5mph or 50mph. If you are climbing a 25% gradient at 9MPH you should be putting out as much power (watts) as a sprinter doing about 47MPH on the flat. If I got the wattage calculator right!

Pokerface, force applied 1300W at 115rpm will be far less than 1300W at 40rpm.

It is the force and not the power that is what puts strain on bikes. There are many flexy and weak bikes that have seen 1600W+ and have had no problem.

sportbilly1976, Cav and Petacchi will generate well above 1300W in a sprint. Many club level amateurs can easily hit 1300.

Bhima

Just check your drivetrain after every ride and clean if necessary. Keeping on top of chain stretch and tooth damage will mean you don't just smash your bike to pieces unexpectedly in the middle of nowhere.

I carry a spare chain with me now anyway and fix the broken one at home, similar to inner-tube maintainance. Much more peace of mind. 8) I carry a spare everything now - spare cables, rear mech hanger, next it'll be a spare wheel.

Perhaps I was wrong about the increased energy thing - although from what i've heard, you use more muscles when you stand, especially upper-body muscles, so going the same speed out of the saddle, compared to seated, should require more energy theoretically, i'm guessing......(?) If there's a headwind, I can safely say, you'll definately use more energy though.

I only suggested doing it seated because that's my preffered method. Doing it that way also works your glutes (ar5e muscles) loads too. Obviously, to balance it out, you should stand occasionally.

amaferanga

Bhima wrote:

I carry a spare chain with me now anyway and fix the broken one at home, similar to inner-tube maintainance. Much more peace of mind. 8) I carry a spare everything now - spare cables, rear mech hanger, next it'll be a spare wheel.

Is this a joke or are you just a troll? You serisouly break chains on a regular basis? You must be doing something wrong....

freehub

OMG Bhima, this is getting abit silly now? You carry a chain with you.... You only need the links, no wonder you appear to be super slow at the hills, it's cause your weighed down by a ton of bananas and scrap metal.

Bhima

amaferanga wrote:

Is this a joke or are you just a troll? You serisouly break chains on a regular basis? You must be doing something wrong....

I don't break chains often, I just don't fancy sitting around in the middle of nowhere for 20 minutes fixing a chain. Better to just stick a new one on.

snedden9485

Bhima wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Is this a joke or are you just a troll? You serisouly break chains on a regular basis? You must be doing something wrong....

I don't break chains often, I just don't fancy sitting around in the middle of nowhere for 20 minutes fixing a chain. Better to just stick a new one on.

This thread cracks me up. Anything where Bhima posts is gold. Bhima, are you a belter or what?

freehub

Bhima wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Is this a joke or are you just a troll? You serisouly break chains on a regular basis? You must be doing something wrong....

I don't break chains often, I just don't fancy sitting around in the middle of nowhere for 20 minutes fixing a chain. Better to just stick a new one on.

That is because it's as quick to fix a chain as it is the replace a chain..

I did not see the mech hanger, that is tbh a wtf thing, if you need to carry one of those around, you are reckless and as for the cables, someone does not maintain there bike?

Infamous

This is just getting ridiculous. You only need to carry the joining link thing and a chain tool at the most.

And spare cables ? mech hanger ? oh fk me.

disgruntledgoat

The only time i've ever needed a mech hanger on a ride, the nice ambulance man took me away.

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

The only time i've ever needed a mech hanger on a ride, the nice ambulance man took me away.

As this thread is now ridiculously off-topic - can I ask a dumb question - when the ambulance carts you away - do they bring your bike along too? And what happens to it at the hospital?


Not planning on a spectacular crash or anything...but would be good to know if it happens!

disgruntledgoat

Pokerface wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

The only time i've ever needed a mech hanger on a ride, the nice ambulance man took me away.

As this thread is now ridiculously off-topic - can I ask a dumb question - when the ambulance carts you away - do they bring your bike along too? And what happens to it at the hospital?


Not planning on a spectacular crash or anything...but would be good to know if it happens!

ummm 1st time they refused and a nice doctor lady who happened to be passing took it in and I retrieved it the next day.

2nd time I was in a race and pretty dazed. The organiser sent it back with one of myclubmates.

In summary, don't count on it.

ded

when the ambulance carts you away - do they bring your bike along too? And what happens to it at the hospital?

Ambulance driver looked at me like I was mental when I asked if I could bring my bike along after being knocked over by a car. He then managed a polite but firm "Ah, No". Some nice passer-by took it to the police station for me and I got it back a week later. So, don't count on it!

mask of sanity

Sorry for restarting an old topic but I’m quite confused by the results I’m getting from doing the hill reps.

I’ve done hill reps three times and got the results below:

1) 3 repeats - 5:59, 6:12 and 6:20.
2) 3 repeats - 5:45, 6:15, 6:40.
3) 4 repeats - 5:55, 6:27, 6:39 and one unknown time (forgot to reset my computer). I was also able to cycle about 6 miles home at over 20 mph (before getting a puncture) so I’m also feeling a lot less fatigued then I used to.

From these results I’m having difficulty in trying to determine if I’m actually seeing an improvement because my times up the hill are generally decreasing but my recovery times between each repeat have improved massively. My breathing used to stay higher than usual for three or four minutes but it’s probably back to normal in under a minute now. Is this increased recovery time most likely to be down to slower times or improved fitness? The second and third set of reps were also done in higher gears which could be responsible for the lower times.

I've worded this really badly so I hope its still possible to understand what I’m saying...

Thanks,

Rich.

Chaz.Harding

Sorry to resserect this thread again, but Bhima - you don't need to sit around for 20 mins fixing a chain if you break it, or snap a link.

9 times out of 10, the outside plates, or the pin will snap off, leaving you free to take the other peice off, and snap on a 'powerlink' or the KMC equivilent (MUCH better, IMO).

And chains aren't the lightest spare! Also, mech hanger... Unless you smash out in a BIG way, probably not gonna need it! I have a multi-tool with a chain tool, a few allen keys, 3 powerlinks (I have a habit of chain snapping, at the moment...), a pump, lightweight inner tube, tyre boot (BLOODY handy!!), an emergency gel, and an emergency bar, £5 in change, and a £10 note.

That's the most you'll need really!

jos2thehua

I do hill reps on occasion. Of course, I'm a pretty big noob to the whole road cycling deal and I don't know if they are that beneficial or not. I just know we do them in cross country to help out our climbing so why not do it on the bike?

By the way, I do about 6 reps on a hill that's around 800 meters(maybe shorter) and before the reps I do 30 minutes out to the hill at a medium-easy pace. Then after that, medium-easy pace back to the house which is all up hill on the profile.

frenchfighter

Your heart rate goes up when you get out of the saddle without question. If you don't believe it, ride with a heart rate monitor and see the readings in and out of the saddle while maintaining the same speed.

As for climbing out of the saddle, one of the characteristics of quality climbers is that they are able to climb standing for prolonged periods.

Another benefit of climbing standing is that you use different muscles and can stretch different parts of your body.

Occasionally I put the bike on the turbo trainer and pedal whilst standing out of the saddle for long periods of time 5-10 mins. Not sure if it does any good but I think it might.

See here for tips on climbing in general: http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... 3#15355663

mask of sanity

mask of sanity wrote:

Sorry for restarting an old topic but I’m quite confused by the results I’m getting from doing the hill reps.

I’ve done hill reps three times and got the results below:

1) 3 repeats - 5:59, 6:12 and 6:20.
2) 3 repeats - 5:45, 6:15, 6:40.
3) 4 repeats - 5:55, 6:27, 6:39 and one unknown time (forgot to reset my computer). I was also able to cycle about 6 miles home at over 20 mph (before getting a puncture) so I’m also feeling a lot less fatigued then I used to.

From these results I’m having difficulty in trying to determine if I’m actually seeing an improvement because my times up the hill are generally decreasing but my recovery times between each repeat have improved massively. My breathing used to stay higher than usual for three or four minutes but it’s probably back to normal in under a minute now. Is this increased recovery time most likely to be down to slower times or improved fitness? The second and third set of reps were also done in higher gears which could be responsible for the lower times.

I've worded this really badly so I hope its still possible to understand what I’m saying...

Thanks,

Rich.

Anyone...?! :?

shockedsoshocked

mask of sanity wrote:

mask of sanity wrote:

Sorry for restarting an old topic but I’m quite confused by the results I’m getting from doing the hill reps.

I’ve done hill reps three times and got the results below:

1) 3 repeats - 5:59, 6:12 and 6:20.
2) 3 repeats - 5:45, 6:15, 6:40.
3) 4 repeats - 5:55, 6:27, 6:39 and one unknown time (forgot to reset my computer). I was also able to cycle about 6 miles home at over 20 mph (before getting a puncture) so I’m also feeling a lot less fatigued then I used to.

From these results I’m having difficulty in trying to determine if I’m actually seeing an improvement because my times up the hill are generally decreasing but my recovery times between each repeat have improved massively. My breathing used to stay higher than usual for three or four minutes but it’s probably back to normal in under a minute now. Is this increased recovery time most likely to be down to slower times or improved fitness? The second and third set of reps were also done in higher gears which could be responsible for the lower times.

I've worded this really badly so I hope its still possible to understand what I’m saying...

Thanks,

Rich.

Anyone...?! :?

The best way to see improvements would be that not only your times are faster, but the time difference for each rep is smaller. I wouldn't expect every time you'll set a new record, but a gradual decrease in time will show you're getting fitter and your recovery is improving. Perhaps also try adding up the 3 rep times and averaging it out?

mask of sanity

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

The best way to see improvements would be that not only your times are faster, but the time difference for each rep is smaller. I wouldn't expect every time you'll set a new record, but a gradual decrease in time will show you're getting fitter and your recovery is improving. Perhaps also try adding up the 3 rep times and averaging it out?

Thanks for that. I hadn't thought about the time differences and averaging the times out. The averages are as follows (in date order)

1) 6:10 (three reps)
2) 6:13 (three reps)
3) 6:21 (four reps)

I did just notice a typo in what I wrote previously though :oops: What I mean to say was my times are increasing but I'm pushing harder gears, did an additional rep on my last attempt and my recovery time has decreased rapidly. I guess what I'm unsure about is which part of this (time, recovery time, No. of reps or gears used) is the most significant in terms of determining the level of improvement.