Bella Jorg : 09 Tour winner will be a doper
Comments
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iainf72 wrote:
To echo the words of Mandy Rice Davies .......he would say that wouldnt he !Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Ah the old, old doper sour grapes gambit.
Any witness to cheating must be discredited for the greater good.
I think there's a name for that in the peloton.
Dave: You have consistently said he thinks Lance was doped to win his Tours.
Now, this year, aged 38, if he wins he's clean?
I don't know why you guys just don't come out and say what you feel.
You couldn't care less who benefits the most from getting PEDs into their system.
Providing the winning cheating rider isn't Italian, then doesn't get caught, it's fine."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
In other news JJ say's bears have been known to defecate in woods
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Blazing Saddles wrote:Ah the old, old doper sour grapes gambit.
Any witness to cheating must be discredited for the greater good.
I think there's a name for that in the peloton.
Dave: You have consistently said he thinks Lance was doped to win his Tours.
Now, this year, aged 38, if he wins he's clean?
I don't know why you guys just don't come out and say what you feel.
You couldn't care less who benefits the most from getting PEDs into their system.
Providing the winning cheating rider isn't Italian, then doesn't get caught, it's fine.
If the winning rider doesnt get caught cheating then how is he a cheat ?...............say what you really think Blaze you think almost if not all pro riders are cheats even when the evidence doesnt point to that. What get me is why you doom and gloom merchants bother with the sport, you are the forum equivalent of Dads Army's Private Fraser...............we are doomed i tell you !Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Ah the old, old doper sour grapes gambit.
Any witness to cheating must be discredited for the greater good.
I think there's a name for that in the peloton.
Dave: You have consistently said he thinks Lance was doped to win his Tours.
Now, this year, aged 38, if he wins he's clean?
I don't know why you guys just don't come out and say what you feel.
You couldn't care less who benefits the most from getting PEDs into their system.
Providing the winning cheating rider isn't Italian, then doesn't get caught, it's fine.
If the winning rider doesnt get caught cheating then how is he a cheat ?...............say what you really think Blaze you think almost if not all pro riders are cheats even when the evidence doesnt point to that. What get me is why you doom and gloom merchants bother with the sport, you are the forum equivalent of Dads Army's Private Fraser...............we are doomed i tell you !
So Jack the Ripper is not actually a murderer?0 -
afx237vi wrote:Moray Gub wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Ah the old, old doper sour grapes gambit.
Any witness to cheating must be discredited for the greater good.
I think there's a name for that in the peloton.
Dave: You have consistently said he thinks Lance was doped to win his Tours.
Now, this year, aged 38, if he wins he's clean?
I don't know why you guys just don't come out and say what you feel.
You couldn't care less who benefits the most from getting PEDs into their system.
Providing the winning cheating rider isn't Italian, then doesn't get caught, it's fine.
If the winning rider doesnt get caught cheating then how is he a cheat ?...............say what you really think Blaze you think almost if not all pro riders are cheats even when the evidence doesnt point to that. What get me is why you doom and gloom merchants bother with the sport, you are the forum equivalent of Dads Army's Private Fraser...............we are doomed i tell you !
So Jack the Ripper is not actually a murderer?
An unknown individual committed murder totally different thing altogether. The point stands if the winning rider isnt cheating and does not caught cheating how can he be a cheat. I could call you a murderer but that doesnt make it so.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Er, OK. How about this instead:- So Osama bin Laden is not actually a terrorist?
My point being, just because you don't get caught, it doesn't mean you didn't do it.0 -
Moray Gub wrote:An unknown individual committed murder totally different thing altogether. The point stands if the winning rider isnt cheating and does not caught cheating how can he be a cheat. I could call you a murderer but that doesnt make it so.
It doesn't make me so because there is no evidence to support your assertion. With many pro cyclists, there is evidence. Lots of it.0 -
afx237vi wrote:Er, OK. How about this instead:- So Osama bin Laden is not actually a terrorist?
My point being, just because you don't get caught, it doesn't mean you didn't do it.
This is the logic."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Poor the Lance is calling it pathetic on Twitter.
This is what baffles me a bit about him. When he first started his comeback he was making noises like "yes, I did look foolish when Basso and Ullrich were pwned" but now he's just trying to use his jedi mind powers via Twitter.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
OJ Simpson's not a murder, Al Capone was never a mafia gangster: just because someone is not convicted of something does not make it true
How many of you have driven a car above the speed limit? Were you prosecuted and fined for this? I doubt it. Doping is similar, many people seem to be breaking the rules and going undetected and unpunished.
For sure people can't sling round accusations about doping for free but there are so many riders who have been hailed champions only to get end up getting busted.0 -
I had a very interesting chat with a US cyclist of sorts yesterday (please don't press for details). Their assertion was clear, only if Evans wins the tour will you see a clean winner (that was in context of dsicussing the Schlecks, Contador, Kreuziger, levi and Lance, Menchov...........................Sastre I highlight was not discussed. Wish I had asked now!)Robert Millar for knighthood0
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afx237vi wrote:Er, OK. How about this instead:- So Osama bin Laden is not actually a terrorist?
My point being, just because you don't get caught, it doesn't mean you didn't do it.
All depends on how you view it In the eyes of the West he is a terrorist but to many he is not a terrorist.So its not as simple as you make out.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
afx237vi wrote:Moray Gub wrote:An unknown individual committed murder totally different thing altogether. The point stands if the winning rider isnt cheating and does not caught cheating how can he be a cheat. I could call you a murderer but that doesnt make it so.
It doesn't make me so because there is no evidence to support your assertion. With many pro cyclists, there is evidence. Lots of it.
For a lot of cyclists there is no evidence other than guilty by assosiation which is nonsensical. There is probbaly as much evidence of you being a murderer than there is of a lot cyclists doping, just becuase you say its so doesnt make it so.Sure some cyclist dope some dont i dont know how you lot can like the sport thinking every cyclist is juiced up.I ask the question why bother ..............Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
alanmcn1 wrote:I had a very interesting chat with a US cyclist of sorts yesterday (please don't press for details). Their assertion was clear, only if Evans wins the tour will you see a clean winner (that was in context of dsicussing the Schlecks, Contador, Kreuziger, levi and Lance, Menchov...........................Sastre I highlight was not discussed. Wish I had asked now!)
Supply details or you claims are quite frankly meaningless, for instance i had a chat with Lance on a training ride yesterday says he is looking forward to the tour.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
All I wanted to know is why someone who's been caught and says: "History is about to repeat itself." is so obviously motivated to lying, while someone who has circumstantial evidence of cheating against him says: "Trust me, everybody's now clean." is to be believed."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0
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Blazing Saddles wrote:All I wanted to know is why someone who's been caught and says: "History is about to repeat itself." is so obviously motivated to lying, while someone who has circumstantial evidence of cheating against him says: "Trust me, everybody's now clean." is to be believed.
The "everybody is doing it defense" is as old as the hills, makes him seem like he was only doing what the others were doing. In some cases he was but to fling a doping blanket over the whole peleton quite frankly is a nonsense. As i have said on numerous occasions i just dont get how you can like the sport thinking every cyclist is juiced up.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
iainf72 wrote:Poor the Lance is calling it pathetic on Twitter.
This is what baffles me a bit about him. When he first started his comeback he was making noises like "yes, I did look foolish when Basso and Ullrich were pwned" but now he's just trying to use his jedi mind powers via Twitter.
I think he is a massive wind up merchant via his twitter, for instance he seems to have you jumping through hoops at his every utterance most of which to be honest is banal crap .Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:
I think he is a massive wind up merchant via his twitter, for instance he seems to have you jumping through hoops at his every utterance most of which to be honest is banal crap .
You might be right.
The problem. and I think you'll agree, is it gets reported as news by real media outlets.
In this case, I don't think it was a wind up. Especially if you combine it with what he mentioned for the new book in the interviews etc.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
I absolutely agree MG - banal crap totally sums it up
It would be nice to have a figurehead for the sport who was a mature, thoughtful role model capable of debating the issues intelligently instead of someone who has little interest or ability beyond the heavily scripted soundbite and a gang leader mentality but there you are.
Bassons has been saying some interesting things about the idea of jail sentences for dopers - he's totally opposed to it, unlike Kohl who thinks it's the only possible deterrent. Now, there's an interesting debate rather than a silly little put down and a string of broken promises and empty words reported slavishly as gospel truth.0 -
The problem with Jaksche is that journalists come to him for doom and gloom quotes about doping. If he starts saying that cycling's cleaned up and is optimistic, the journalists will stop talking to him. These sort of comments are his raison d'etre these daysTwitter: @RichN950
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And what else is he to do? A good rider who can't get a ride because he came clean and told the truth about the sport's dirty little secret?
And is his opinion very different to what many people think? Llook at the list of contenders, you'd have to dig deep to find one that wasn't in some way shape or form linked to doping.0 -
micron wrote:And what else is he to do? A good rider who can't get a ride because he came clean and told the truth about the sport's dirty little secret?
And is his opinion very different to what many people think? Llook at the list of contenders, you'd have to dig deep to find one that wasn't in some way shape or form linked to doping.
My point is that all journalists have contacts that are guaranteed to give them quotes to fit their story. And JJ has set himself up as such a person and it maintains some sort of profile for him. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but excuse me if I don't view it as gospel truth.
Is his opinion different to others? It is to mine - I believe three of the top four* in last year's Tour were clean (I don't go in for the guilt by association nonsense). Maybe I'm horribly naive, but I'm happier that way.
(*After Kohl's disqualification.)Twitter: @RichN950 -
What I can't understand, is why so many doping obsessed people on this forum take any interest in pro cycling. If it's so bad and makes you all so unhappy, why don't you go and follow a clean sport like.....erm.....? It just seems to make so many of you miserable.0
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alanmcn1 wrote:I had a very interesting chat with a US cyclist of sorts yesterday (please don't press for details). Their assertion was clear, only if Evans wins the tour will you see a clean winner (that was in context of dsicussing the Schlecks, Contador, Kreuziger, levi and Lance, Menchov...........................Sastre I highlight was not discussed. Wish I had asked now!)
The same Evans who races more than any other GT rider through the year successfully?
Right.
I for the record don't think Evans is doping, but these kind of allegations just show how ridiculous this debate is.
Easy with the stones when you live in a glass house.0 -
Arkibal wrote:
The same Evans who races more than any other GT rider through the year successfully?
Right.
I for the record don't think Evans is doping, but these kind of allegations just show how ridiculous this debate is.
Easy with the stones when you live in a glass house.
I agree that most of the accusations are ridiculous - I've usually seen exactly the opposite of your (non very serious) point about Evans (i.e that dopers tend to disappear for large chunks of the season and peak for certain races).
The law of the internet is the position that is presented loudest and most frequently is 'right'Twitter: @RichN950 -
Arkibal wrote:alanmcn1 wrote:I had a very interesting chat with a US cyclist of sorts yesterday (please don't press for details). Their assertion was clear, only if Evans wins the tour will you see a clean winner (that was in context of dsicussing the Schlecks, Contador, Kreuziger, levi and Lance, Menchov...........................Sastre I highlight was not discussed. Wish I had asked now!)
The same Evans who races more than any other GT rider through the year successfully?
Right.
I for the record don't think Evans is doping, but these kind of allegations just show how ridiculous this debate is.
Easy with the stones when you live in a glass house.
Scuse me, but the point by alnmc1 is that Evans is the only clean contendor.
Not that I fully enodrse this view, but that is the point that was made.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Ah the old, old doper sour grapes gambit.
Any witness to cheating must be discredited for the greater good.
I think there's a name for that in the peloton.
Dave: You have consistently said he thinks Lance was doped to win his Tours.
Now, this year, aged 38, if he wins he's clean?
I don't know why you guys just don't come out and say what you feel.
You couldn't care less who benefits the most from getting PEDs into their system.
Providing the winning cheating rider isn't Italian, then doesn't get caught, it's fine.
Blaze, i agree LA doped but IMO with the bloodpassport, and the reaction from Dr Ferrari , the vague threat by AFLD that they have a new test for something they won't tell about...it all helps stop those who would otherwise dope like IMO Lance and catches those who absolutely would dope no matter. Am willing to believe VDV was clean at 08 TDF and he was close. LA also may have come back cause he can see the blood passport and heavy testing, many dopers caught, means a chance of a level playing field he did not have in the 90s0 -
But he is not just talking about his personal, self-doping experiences but about what he found in every team that he rode in.Moray Gub wrote:The "everybody is doing it defense" is as old as the hills, makes him seem like he was only doing what the others were doing.
Pat McQuaid has a somewhat brighter look on the doping problems in pro cycling than various commentators as well as former riders. On Monday evening McQuaid said, that he believes the days of organized doping in cycling are over, and that doping violations today is an individual matter for some riders.
This statement made Jörg Jaksche roll his eyes and respond with a smile.
”Maybe I have just been unlucky, because I have been on six teams, and on all six there has been organized doping,” Jaksche said.
http://www.thepulse2007.org/?p=730
