Boonen excluded...thoughts?

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

Do you think the view that doping is less widespread in the French-based teams is also a 'myth'?

Yes, I am. I'd suggest doping is less prevelant on the American teams competing at the highest level in Europe.

Can you offer any evidence about France?

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

I'd suggest doping is less prevelant on the American teams competing at the highest level in Europe.

You mean American-based teams like USP and Discovery? :shock:

How about the prevelance of doping amongst Americans competing in Europe? (Hamilton, Landis, Armstrong and so on).

iainf72 wrote:

Can you offer any evidence about France?

Can you?

Croxted Avenger

pauln99 wrote:

Croxted Avenger

Theres is a two tier judicial system for poor peoples cocaine and rich peoples cociane. I'm saying it and you're agreeing with me. You obviously think this is ok as you think rich people don't cost society through their habit / addiction - a myth btw. I don't think this is ok, I think its hypocritical. That is the difference between us.

You might like to tell how how rich people taking cocaine has an affect on my life?

If it compares to being assaulted and robbed then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise there's a difference in scale which I appreciate and you don't. And that is the difference between us.

P

Pithy response that. Shame you aren't able to extrapolate how much a middle class cocaine addict costs the NHS in treatment - exactly the same as a crack addict. Then theres the shedloads of cash tied up in drug enforcement / Customs...costs the same for both drugs.Middle class addcits aren't going to get in your face but they'll still drain resources as their lives falter. Its not as diametrically opposed as you'd like to believe and saying it doesn't affect you is facile - it just doesn't affect you right now in this instant.

Seriously, contact me by PM if you would like an intro to the Brook Advisory clinic in SW London, they can give you them full 9 yards.

D

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I'd suggest doping is less prevelant on the American teams competing at the highest level in Europe.

You mean American-based teams like USP and Discovery? :shock:

No, I live in 2009, you should join us. I mean Garmin and Columbia.

iainf72 wrote:

Can you offer any evidence about France?
Can you?

Fofonov and Caucchioli at CA last year.
Moreni the year before at Cofidis

French teams. Now I don't doubt they say the right things but talk is cheap.

My question is why would you think they behaved better? There's no evidence of anything like that. Unless you think them being a bit rubbish is evidence. But I tend to side with Guimard and Hinault on this matter.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

I live in 2009, you should join us.

Yeah back to the future, right along with Mr. Armstrong...

iainf72 wrote:

Fofonov and Caucchioli at CA last year. Moreni the year before at Cofidis. French teams. Now I don't doubt they say the right things but talk is cheap. My question is why would you think they behaved better? There's no evidence of anything like that.

So, you have previously argued that even blood doping can be done by individual riders without any team level involvement, now you name a Kazak (positive for the vasodilator heptaminol) and two Italians (one who used a testosterone patch and another showing unusual blood parameters) and argue that they stand as evidence that doping is as prevalent in French Teams / amongst French riders as it is amongst the blood-doping, corticoids, Epo and CERA using Spanish, Italians, Americans and so on. You need to do a bit better than that...

Tell me how many French riders have been busted for doping in recent years, and how many Italians, Spanish and others?

If French based / French riders are doping as much as anyone else why isn't the zealous testing of the FFC uncovering scores of cases?

CyclingBantam

Sorry I have not got through the whole thread yet and apologies if it has already been discussed however.... can Coke not be used as a masking agent? I'm not suggesting it was used for this however, if it can be then surely that means any ban is valid and he has potentially got off quite lightly.

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

Tell me how many French riders have been busted for doping in recent years, and how many Italians, Spanish and others?

You said

"Do you think the view that doping is less widespread in the French-based teams is also a 'myth'?"

I answered that question. As to French riders, the lovely rumours about Lhotellerie maybe? (perhaps backed up by no one wanting to touch him with a barge pole). Mr Caspers TUE maybe?

aurelio wrote:

If French based / French riders are doping as much as anyone else why isn't the zealous testing of the FFC uncovering scores of cases?

Because their testing is just as effective as the UCI's testing? So no positives by the FFC is an indication of cleanliness, but no positives but the UCI is evidence of a slapdash job?

How many French cyclists have tested positive in recent year? As many as have shown evidence of doping use in the hair tests? 50%? None?

If you want to form a good argument, bring all of the evidence into play, not only the bits that support what you believe. You're pedalling dogma rather than truth.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

aurelio wrote:

Tell me how many French riders have been busted for doping in recent years, and how many Italians, Spanish and others?

As to French riders, the lovely rumours about Lhotellerie maybe? (perhaps backed up by no one wanting to touch him with a barge pole). Mr Caspers TUE maybe?

So that's just two 'possibles'?

Now remind me how many Spanish, Italian and other riders have had 'rumours' of doping associated with them, or have actually failed dope tests in recent years...

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

Now remind me how many Spanish, Italian and other riders have had 'rumours' of doping associated with them, or have actually failed dope tests in recent years...

Granted but does that tell us one single thing about the cleanliness of the French?

2007

French positives : 0
American positives : 0

2008

French positives : 0
American positives : 0

A significant percentage of French amateurs hair tests showed the use of sterioids. Surely we should have seen some positives?

So what you're saying is you can offer no proof the French peloton are any different to anyone else? I see. So perhaps we can move on now?

finchy

iainf72 wrote:

I believe the Dutch health care system is now considered the best and is basically "private".

So, when BR ran the trains here it was a brilliant nirvana?

All I'm saying here is we need to end this myth that France does a better job in terms of anti-doping than other nations. They don't.

The subsidies that the private train companies get dwarf those that BR used to receive - £4bn now compared to £1.5bn in the old days (at today's prices). Ticket prices have also gone up way over the rate of inflation. Technology has also improved in the last decade and a half, so you can't really compare BR to the modern railway service.

And back to the cycling - why do you say that the French don't do a better job than other nations in terms of anti-doping?

EDIT: just seen your other posts.

The number of French positives compared to American positives isn't a valid one - there are far more top-level French professionals than Americans.

iainf72

johnfinch wrote:

[And back to the cycling - why do you say that the French don't do a better job than other nations in terms of anti-doping?

EDIT: just seen your other posts.

The number of French positives compared to American positives isn't a valid one - there are far more top-level French professionals than Americans.

If I was being very cheeky, I'd say there were a lot more top level American pro's than French

http://www.steroidsources.com/Steroid-I ... says-afld/

So basically they know people are doing it but they never bust anyone. Sound familiar?

The AFLD did a good job last year but would it have been different with the UCI? After all, the UCI got Landis, Vino, Kash, Heras etc.

DavMartinR

Has any other national agency tried hair testng? Would be intresting to see some comparisons with other countries?

finchy

iainf72 wrote:

If I was being very cheeky, I'd say there were a lot more top level American pro's than French

http://www.steroidsources.com/Steroid-I ... says-afld/

So basically they know people are doing it but they never bust anyone. Sound familiar?

The AFLD did a good job last year but would it have been different with the UCI? After all, the UCI got Landis, Vino, Kash, Heras etc.

I remember that the story - the AFLD were, according to the French newspapers, just carrying out some preliminary work to decide where they need to concentrate their resources. And the % of amateur cyclists using the steroid was double that of the pros -so maybe the pros are being dissuaded by anti-doping measures - or maybe they just have something better.

With the French government being more likely to act on doping than the Spanish, I would still argue that the French have more of an incentive to avoid doping.

BTW, I'm not one of those people who thinks that the UCI isn't doing anything to rid cycling of doping, and would point to some of the same riders as you as evidence that they do actually want to clean up.

nick hanson

RichN95 wrote:

nick hanson wrote:

He was banned last year,& no one was the least bit surprised.He's been banned this year (for the same disreputable behaviour).
What's the surprise?
The guy wants banning full stop,until he and/or his employer gets him some help,to stop him going down the same sorry road as Pantani.

No, we had the exact same debate last year (even including comparisons to Pantani).

And?
Next year...same again?.......the guy needs help

dulldave

ASO don't need the negative publicity that Boonen is making their point by dragging it out. He should just learn to take his punishment. I'd love to see Boonen at the Tour, but I think ASO have made the right decision.

I'm not sure how it's hypocritical. It would be hypocritical to let him in this year despite not doing so last year when the exact same thing happened.

Boonen has been caught with cocaine in his system 3 times. We all love to talk about how cycling is so much cleaner than other sports, but there are footballers whose careers have been affectively destroyed by being caught taking cocaine once.

I don't give a sh1t that it's not performance enhancing outside of competition. He's a professional athlete and shouldn't be doing stuff like this. if not riding the Tour isn't going to tach him what incentive does he have to stop doing it?

If he's happy to take a non-performance enhancing drug (only out of competition by the way) that he knows will get him thrown off the tour, how eactly do you expect his morals to kick in for a performance enhancing one? This is something I just don't get.

I think the people that believe his morals will somehow kick in when the drug helps him win are living in a dream world.

It's more likely that he takes cocaine out of competition because he knows it's easily detectable but thinks he'll get away with it (although you could probably teach rats faster than him about cause and effect).

The guy needs help (recreational drug use doesn't automatically mean you need help but when you're a world class athlete, there's something wrong) and letting him ride the tour will not help him in the long run.

dulldave

Man I need to use that preview button.

I didn't mean cleaner than other sports I meant, no dirtier.

RichN95.

dulldave wrote:

Boonen has been caught with cocaine in his system 3 times. We all love to talk about how cycling is so much cleaner than other sports, but there are footballers whose careers have been affectively destroyed by being caught taking cocaine once.
.

I can't think of a single footballer who's career was destroyed by failing a coke test. Granted cocaine destroyed Mark Bosnich's career, but he was finished long before he failed a test. It screwed up Maradona too (nearly killed him), but he never failed a test for it.

Adrian Mutu, Shaun Newton, Paul Merson all continued quite well in their careers.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.steroidsources.com/Steroid-I ... says-afld/

So basically they know people are doing it but they never bust anyone.

I like the biased way in which that report is written. Quote; 'The French Anti Doping Agency (AFLD) reported Wednesday that most of the French athletes that they tested returned a positive result for a banned steroid.'

'Most'? Amongst the cyclists there were 4 positives out of 37 Tests! Still unacceptable though. As to why the lack of action, the main reason was that the tests done were part of a research / monitoring program that did not follow all the criteria needed to bring in disciplinary sanctions. It was also the first trial of the new hair sampling techniques. Perhaps you think that the AFLD should also have brought sanctions against Armstrong when his 1999 Tour samples showed positive for Epo in a 'non sanctionable' test?

iainf72 wrote:

The AFLD did a good job last year but would it have been different with the UCI?

It certainly was in the 2008 Giro...

iainf72 wrote:

After all, the UCI got Landis, Vino, Kash, Heras etc.

I thought that was the evil LNDD?

aurelio_-_banned

johnfinch wrote:

With the French government being more likely to act on doping than the Spanish, I would still argue that the French have more of an incentive to avoid doping.

On big incentive that French riders have is that the French government have criminalised doping...

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

After all, the UCI got Landis, Vino, Kash, Heras etc.

I thought that was the evil LNDD?

That's blurring things. The testing was done by the UCI.

If you want to play it like that, most of the AFLD positives were from a Swiss lab so perhaps the Swiss are the daddies?



BTW - Lemond vs Armstrong in court next year. Armstrong lawyer didn't manage to get the sopena for LA's ex-wife overturned so she's going to have to testify under oath.

aurelio_-_banned

dulldave wrote:

ASO don't need the negative publicity that Boonen is making...

Quite so. Unfortunately the ASO and AFLD always seem to get shed loads of criticism every time they act on the issue of doping. (Especially when an American rider is involved!). Then at the same time they have other people arguing that they are not doing enough! It often seems that much of this criticism, from whichever camp it comes from, is often motivated, at least in part, by good old-fashioned Francophobic prejudice.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

BTW - Lemond vs Armstrong in court next year. Armstrong lawyer didn't manage to get the sopena for LA's ex-wife overturned so she's going to have to testify under oath.

Interesting. Can you post a source?

iainf72

http://velocitynation.com/content/featu ... tion-fails

The Prodigy

Personally I couldn't care less whether Boonen races or not. He'd win nowt anyway.

As for the coke issue, the man's a criminal.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

If I was being very cheeky, I'd say there were a lot more top level American pro's than French

Surely, what really counts is the number of riders in the peleton? It's not only the 'top level' riders who are tested, nor, as in the case those DHEA tests, is the testing of racing cyclists in France restricted to the professionals. Now how many Americans are subject to the French testing regime? How many French riders, both pro and Amateur, are there racing in France and as such subject to the testing regime of the AFLD? (Those DHEA hair tests were all done on French sportsmen).

It seems to be that the number of high-profile positives turned up by the UCI and AFLD in relation to the few Americans racing in France (most of whom are only there a for a few weeks of the year) in comparison with the number of positives that are found amongst the thousands of French riders who are racing there all year round does suggest that the incidence of doping is lower amongst the French. Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility they some American based teams / American riders are now also trying to race clean.

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

http://velocitynation.com/content/features/2009/trek-lemond-mediation-fails

Thanks for that. VeloCityNation, they are the 'daddies'. The interviews they have done recently put the mainstream sites such as cyclingnews to shame.

(Has this potentially huge development even been reported on cyclingnews.com?)

georgio15

shouldn't whoever made all this stuff public be banned from cycling by the UCI. Had it all not beed made public, and it had been kept under the radar then it would have been alright.

admittedly if it had come out then it could have looked worse, but surely its not really going to shock the world as cycling isn't a major sport, in the same way football, baseball and american football are?

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

If I was being very cheeky, I'd say there were a lot more top level American pro's than French

Surely, what really counts is the number of riders in the peloton? It's not only the 'top level' riders who are tested, nor, as in the case those DHEA tests, is the testing of racing cyclists in France restricted to the professionals.

I'd suggest someone like Leipheimer is tested considerably more than your average French rider. He was tested 7 times during the Giro. I think the longitudinal testing is France is done 4 times a year? I could well be wrong on that.

Ultimately, it's all the same testing. So if it doesn't work on the Americans / Italians / Spanish it's sure a heck not going to work on the French.

I believe Armstrong hair tests came back clean eventually (because he was tested by the AFLD)

liversedge

He's a tw@t. There I've said it. What kind of role model is he for my 10 year old son? Do coke, speed and endanger others lives and you can still be a tour hero.

He is a tw@t,.

iainf72

Boonen is not going to face criminal charges for the last incident according to reports.