Deafening Silence
Comments
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Perhaps that all depends on what you mean by 'shown'.iainf72 wrote:I can't think of any examples where team wide doping has been shown, aside from perhaps Saiz's squad and T-Mobile?
There was Festina of course and at the Festina hearings Thomas Davy said that there was also organised doping at Banesto. (Hence the situation where the whole team showed a haemocrit level within a percentage point of 50%),
Jörg Jaksche said that there had been organised doping in every team he had ridden for, so that covers Polti, Team Telekom, ONCE, CSC, Liberty Seguros-Würth/Astana and Tinkoff Credit Systems.
I would also suggest that any team using a motorbike with refrigerated panniers to ferry about bags of "800 ml of packed cells" was involved in team-level doping. In fact I don't see how any team where blood doping was employed could organise it other than at the team level. (That is involving the DS, team doctor and other members of staff as well as the riders).
I am sure this list could be greatly extended without too much effort.0 -
So much for Gripper. It sounds like she is just another 'good company man' now...iainf72 wrote:Gripper says more coming (maybe)
But it doesn't sound like there will be any more soon
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=re ... &type=lgns
Oh well.0 -
It seems to me that Gripper's biggest problem is that she hasn't twigged her number one priority is to keep the armchair experts happy...Le Blaireau (1)0
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aurelio wrote:I would also suggest that any team using a motorbike with refrigerated panniers to ferry about bags of "800 ml of packed cells" was involved in team-level doping. In fact I don't see how any team where blood doping was employed could organise it other than at the team level. (That is involving the DS, team doctor and other members of staff as well as the riders).
Kohl's statements would render those assumptions incorrect, wouldn't they? It would appear blood doping was not as difficult as people imagined, nor did it require huge amounts of infrastructure. 20 minutes in your managers hotel room, job done. Oh yeah, and 2 days before you actually needed it, not the night before or same morning according ot Kohl.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
It's a bit of a shambles that some of the riders involved hadn't been notified before the press release today.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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iainf72 wrote:aurelio wrote:I would also suggest that any team using a motorbike with refrigerated panniers to ferry about bags of "800 ml of packed cells" was involved in team-level doping. In fact I don't see how any team where blood doping was employed could organise it other than at the team level. (That is involving the DS, team doctor and other members of staff as well as the riders).
Kohl's statements would render those assumptions incorrect, wouldn't they? It would appear blood doping was not as difficult as people imagined, nor did it require huge amounts of infrastructure. 20 minutes in your managers hotel room, job done. Oh yeah, and 2 days before you actually needed it, not the night before or same morning according ot Kohl.
indeed what kohl shows is that team wide doping did not exist at Gerolsteiner otherwise he'd name Shumi as well...so Festina we are past...riders acting alone is what Kohl demonstrates...even had his pal from Austria flies with the blood bag to him-not team wide...0 -
You seem to be overlooking the 'infrastructure' needed to store and transport the blood to where it is to be used. Also, however simple doing a transfusion might be, if it involves other team members, such as the team doctor, rather than being done 'in secret' by the rider themselves, then it amounts to organised, team-level doping.iainf72 wrote:
Kohl's statements would render those assumptions incorrect, wouldn't they? It would appear blood doping was not as difficult as people imagined, nor did it require huge amounts of infrastructure. 20 minutes in your managers hotel room, job done. Oh yeah, and 2 days before you actually needed it, not the night before or same morning according ot Kohl.aurelio wrote:I would also suggest that any team using a motorbike with refrigerated panniers to ferry about bags of "800 ml of packed cells" was involved in team-level doping. In fact I don't see how any team where blood doping was employed could organise it other than at the team level. (That is involving the DS, team doctor and other members of staff as well as the riders).
Kohl's statements about the timing of transfusions are interesting. Perhaps for the optimum benefit the morning before the start is not the best time, but that doesn't mean to say that every team gives their riders their transfusions as much as two days beforehand. For one such early 'top ups' must surely give the team an extra worry regarding the possibility of being tested by the UCI 'vampires'.0 -
aurelio wrote:You seem to be overlooking the 'infrastructure' needed to store and transport the blood to where it is to be used. Also, however simple doing a transfusion might be, if it involves other team members, such as the team doctor, rather than being done 'in secret' by the rider themselves, then it amounts to organised, team-level doping.
Again. what Kohl has indicated is that you can do this in a very small circle. It doesn't need to be team wide at all. So while it certainly happened (in the case of T-Mobile for example), the big names make their own arrangements.
This myth that you need huge infrastructure in order to blood dope and that you need a massive team budget do to it is misleading.
To me, and call me a stickler if you like, team wide implies the whole team being involved. Not one guy on the team and perhaps the doctor.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Kohl's statement is one, if not the only, public record we have of blood doping in cycling. No-one else has, to the best of my knowledge, detailed how it's done. There is the IM transcript between Vaughters and Andreu but that is just two friends shooting the breeze.iainf72 wrote:Kohl's statements would render those assumptions incorrect, wouldn't they? It would appear blood doping was not as difficult as people imagined, nor did it require huge amounts of infrastructure. 20 minutes in your managers hotel room, job done. Oh yeah, and 2 days before you actually needed it, not the night before or same morning according ot Kohl.
However, there is evidence of teams being rubbish one day and strong the next, i.e. Discovery leaving Armstrong isolated on stage 8 of the 2005 Tour only to comeback next day and sit on the front all day, which would suggest Kohl's statement on 48 hours isn't true for everyone. This is, of course, idle speculation.0 -
Fair point, and we know from the exploits of Armstrong that for years, whilst he made his 'own arrangements' with Ferrari, some of his teammates made do with buying Epo on their own account in Switzerland. On the other hand that instant messenger transcript that talks about ‘Disco’ having a refrigerated motorbike to transport the blood to where it was needed and the incident where Armstrong tipped Landis' blood bag down the sink at the Tour sounds much more like team-level doping.iainf72 wrote:what Kohl has indicated is that you can do this in a very small circle. It doesn't need to be team wide at all. So while it certainly happened (in the case of T-Mobile for example), the big names make their own arrangements.
It would probably be fairest to say that there are no fixed rules to doping and that the procedures followed, like the products and methods themselves, will be adapted to the prevailing circumstances. That said team-level doping hardly seems to be uncommon, going by the accounts of people like Jaksche, Banesto's universal 49% haemocrit levels and so on.0 -
aurelio wrote:
Fair point, and we know from the exploits of Armstrong that for years, whilst he made his 'own arrangements' with Ferrari, some of his teammates made do with buying Epo on their own account in Switzerland. On the other hand that instant messenger transcript that talks about ‘Disco’ having a refrigerated motorbike to transport the blood to where it was needed and the incident where Armstrong tipped Landis' blood bag down the sink at the Tour sounds much more like team-level doping.iainf72 wrote:what Kohl has indicated is that you can do this in a very small circle. It doesn't need to be team wide at all. So while it certainly happened (in the case of T-Mobile for example), the big names make their own arrangements.
It would probably be fairest to say that there are no fixed rules to doping and that the procedures followed, like the products and methods themselves, will be adapted to the prevailing circumstances. That said team-level doping hardly seems to be uncommon, going by the accounts of people like Jaksche, Banesto's universal 49% haemocrit levels and so on.
Much of what you say makes great sense, and your knowledge on the subject shames us all ( thats not a p1ss take by the way)
But i do wish you wouldnt take some occurences as fact when they are heresay. I am referring to the blood down the sink incident specifically. It may or may not have happened, but you treat it as dead cert fact. Did it definately happen?
Also which one of the scribes are you?0 -
I can't see any reason why having a delay between transfusion and racing would render the transfusion to be more effective, at least in terms of the benefits to be had from increasing the number of red cells that are circulating.andyp wrote:there is evidence of teams being rubbish one day and strong the next, i.e. Discovery leaving Armstrong isolated on stage 8 of the 2005 Tour only to comeback next day and sit on the front all day, which would suggest Kohl's statement on 48 hours isn't true for everyone.
The only thing that I have read so far that might be of relevance is the fact that the Nitrous Oxide present in fresh blood is lost within a few hours of it being stored. This NO plays a role in dilating the blood vessels and so transfusing a large quantity of NO-depleted blood can cause side-effects. However, this may be more of a medical / surgical issue and in any case this lost NO can be replaced immediately prior to use. (Although I would think that such a procedure would inevitably require additional 'team level' organisation).
Perhaps Kohl's 'medical advisors' were being cautious about possible post-transfusion side effects, whilst for others the benefits to be had from 'on the day doping' (including being less likely to be caught by the 'vampires') outweighed such concerns.
Perhaps the vascular dilation that comes from exercise normally counters the possible side effects of being transfused with NO-depleted blood. Whatever, it seems that the possible risks to health that are associated with doping don't figure high in many riders’ lists of concerns.0 -
You are quite right, we can't know for sure. I was going to say 'the alleged incident where Armstrong tipped Landis' blood bag down the sink at the Tour', but the 'faithful' always act as though that everything in that transcript is uncontrovertibly false, and my sense of mischievousness got the better of me.camerone wrote:i do wish you wouldnt take some occurences as fact when they are heresay. I am referring to the blood down the sink incident specifically. It may or may not have happened, but you treat it as dead cert fact. Did it definately happen?
By the way, who are the 'scribes' you refer to?0 -
And why might anyone believe it was false? Depending on where you read about it, the blood was either dumped down the sink or the toilet (a minor detail but you'd think they'd keep it consistent), and it happened either on the last rest day, or in a hotel room on Alpe d'Huez after the ITT (2 days after the rest day). Reason given that Floyd rode too well for himself on the AdH TT (he finished 3:35 down on Armstrong in 21st, whereas Azevedo finished about 1:45 behind in 4th, but apparently the Ace escaped sanction for riding too well). Landis then went out and rode the socks off everyone on the next day's stage to Le Grand Bornand, presumably sans blood refill.
You see, it all makes perfect sense....Le Blaireau (1)0 -
The original transcript does not explicitly say when Armstrong and Bruyneel 'allegedly' dumped Landis' blood, just saying that he dumped his 'rest day blood refill down the toilet in front of him'.DaveyL wrote:And why might anyone believe it was false? Depending on where you read about it, the blood was either dumped down the sink or the toilet (a minor detail but you'd think they'd keep it consistent), and it happened either on the last rest day, or in a hotel room on Alpe d'Huez after the ITT (2 days after the rest day).
Is there a 'second transcript' somewhere that you know of, or are any discrepancies just down to people misquoting the original?
Also, there were two rest days in the 2004 Tour. How do you know that the 'alleged' incident could not have occured around the time of the first rest day? Even if Armstrong was 'pissed' with Landis surely he would have still wanted Landis to be of help to him once the race hit the Alps. In addition, knowing Armstrong's temperament, do you think that if he was 'pissed’ with Landis he would have held back until the third week of the race before imposing his authority?
(Stage 9 after the first rest day was a 'A short, easy stage' where the peleton finished en-mass with Landis finishing in 82nd place. On the next stage Landis finished 6 minutes down in 66th place, more importantly losing over half a minute on the large chasing group containing all the race favourites. On stage 11 Landis finished in 104th place at 6.19, so he was hardly 'riding the socks' off anyone at this stage in the race).0 -
andyp wrote:iainf72 wrote:However, there is evidence of teams being rubbish one day and strong the next, i.e. Discovery leaving Armstrong isolated on stage 8 of the 2005 Tour only to comeback next day and sit on the front all day, which would suggest Kohl's statement on 48 hours isn't true for everyone. This is, of course, idle speculation.
in that case there was a rest day inbetween so the timelines would fit. And if it does kick in a couple of days later then you would see a sudden improvement regardless.
I used to believe blooddoping needed everyone in on it, but it appears not. If someone can transport a couple of units in a bag, transfuse in 20 minutes it's means it's not hard to do. The trick is to find an organisation like human plasma or fuentes.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
From Walsh's interview on Competitor Radio:
“This happened actually in the 2004 Tour de France. Again, according to Jonathan (Vaughters), basically, it would’ve been the second rest day, Floyd had one bag of blood, because at this point, most of the teams are transfusing blood, because the test for epo has become more sophisticated, and if you use epo and you’re in the race, you’re likely to get caught. So, the solution, to keep blood boosting, is to use your own blood – old fashioned transfusions. Take the blood out six weeks before the race, five weeks before the race, treat the blood, remove the plasma, pack it, the blood ends up basically as a pack of red cells. And there’s two rest days on the Tour, you bring two pints of blood back, 800 mLs (sic), and you reinfuse it, it’s the rider’s own blood, you reinfuse it and he gets this enormous boost. Now according to Jonathan, I imagine it was the second rest day of the 2004 Tour, Floyd goes to get his blood, Johan Bruyneel has it. Lance is in the room, according to Jonathan, and in front of Floyd they pour his blood down the sink.”
Walsh seems to know a lot more detail about this than is revealed just from the Vaughters/Andreu IM. Of course, it being Walsh, it can't be made up, can it? It *must* be the truth, eh Howard?
I believe that in Jeremy Whittle's book, "Bad Blood" he alleges this incident took place in a hotel room in Alpe d'Huez which would be at odds with the Vaughters anecdote.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
So, it seems that in that interview Walsh was (quite openly) doing nothing more than making a supposition regarding when this incident ocurred ('I imagine it was the second rest day') and Whittle didn't bother to check his facts before going to print.DaveyL wrote:From Walsh's interview on Competitor Radio:
“This happened actually in the 2004 Tour de France.... I imagine it was the second rest day of the 2004 Tour, Floyd goes to get his blood, Johan Bruyneel has it. Lance is in the room, according to Jonathan, and in front of Floyd they pour his blood down the sink.”
...I believe that in Jeremy Whittle's book, "Bad Blood" he alleges this incident took place in a hotel room in Alpe d'Huez which would be at odds with the Vaughters anecdote.
Of all the possible scenarios, the one I paint seems to make the most sense, and I would like to see any real evidence which shows it to be wrong.0 -
would you trust 9 riders and 7 or 8 support staff...you wouldn't if you were a big name like LA...you'd keep it extremely secretive IMO and have the DS green light individual efforts at get a sports dr etc...no way would Armstrong be sitting in a hotel in Alpe Du Huez with blood bags hanging around...absolutely no chance he would be that stupid...this story wherever it comes from is hard to believe...no doubt LA doped IMO but surely not as styupid as some think he is0
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aurelio wrote:
So, it seems that in that interview Walsh was (quite openly) doing nothing more than making a supposition regarding when this incident ocurred ('I imagine it was the second rest day') and Whittle didn't bother to check his facts before going to print.DaveyL wrote:From Walsh's interview on Competitor Radio:
“This happened actually in the 2004 Tour de France.... I imagine it was the second rest day of the 2004 Tour, Floyd goes to get his blood, Johan Bruyneel has it. Lance is in the room, according to Jonathan, and in front of Floyd they pour his blood down the sink.”
...I believe that in Jeremy Whittle's book, "Bad Blood" he alleges this incident took place in a hotel room in Alpe d'Huez which would be at odds with the Vaughters anecdote.
Of all the possible scenarios, the one I paint seems to make the most sense, and I would like to see any real evidence which shows it to be wrong.
Baed on what, that you're always right? Seems to be as far as your debating "style" goes.
You don't think Walsh talked to Vaughters? I bet he did. And I bet he got a lot more detail on the story than is given in the book. Or is that less likely than you being right?
And to suggest Landis had poor form after the first rest day, because he came in 30 sec down on the GC favourites on one stage, and 21 seconds down on the next, is laughable, given the nature of those stages. He certainly was on fire on the stage to Le Grand Bornand, he burned everyone off his wheel except LA, Basso, Ullrich and Kloeden, riding on the front for the whole of the Col de la Croix Fry, going on the attack on the descent into Le Grand Bornand, and then chasing down an attack himself on the run in to the finish.
It is also corroborated by Daniel Coyle's book, "Tour de Force" which documents an altercation between Bruyneel and Landis after the AdH TT. Tensions had been running high anyway between Landis and the USPS management due to Floyd deciding to jump ship to Phonak, and Bruyneel accused Landis of riding "too well" (i.e. for himself) on the AdH TT. It's not hard to connect this altercation with the blood bag anecdote, and Landis's subsequent fury fuelling his ride on the stage the next day.
Or, we could go with your theory, cos you're always right.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
I would have thought that the other riders could be 'trusted', given that any doping scandal would probably have implicated them as well. As to 'the staff', I take it that you mean people like Bruyneel... :roll:Dave_1 wrote:would you trust 9 riders and 7 or 8 support staff...
True enough, in the past former members of his entourage have drawn a link between Armstrong and doping (Prentice Steffen, Stephen Swart, Frankie Andreu, Emma O'Reilly, Mike Anderson, Stephanie McIllvain etc, plus there is the 'peleton gossip' of people like Landis). However, by this time I am sure Armstrong took every effort to 'vet' those he worked with and they would all have been well aware of his reputation of intimidating / attempting to destroy any 'trusted' member of his 'team' who crossed him, so he probably felt pretty safe. (For example, Armstrong told Prentice Steffen "I have a lot of money, good lawyers, and if you continue to talk, I'll destroy you").
One, you have provided no evidence that this happened during the Alpine stages. (If you have read Whittle's book as well, does he provide a reference?). Secondly, if members of Armstrong's team were transfusing "800 ml of packed cells" he would have had no option but to have blood bags hanging around at some point!Dave_1 wrote:no way would Armstrong be sitting in a hotel in Alpe Du Huez with blood bags hanging around...0 -
aurelio wrote:
I would have thought that the other riders could be 'trusted', given that any doping scandal would probably have implicated them as well. As to 'the staff', I take it that you mean people like Bruyneel... :roll:Dave_1 wrote:would you trust 9 riders and 7 or 8 support staff...
True enough, in the past former members of his entourage have drawn a link between Armstrong and doping (Prentice Steffen, Stephen Swart, Frankie Andreu, Emma O'Reilly, Mike Anderson, Stephanie McIllvain etc, plus there is the 'peloton gossip' of people like Landis). However, by this time I am sure Armstrong took every effort to 'vet' those he worked with and they would all have been well aware of his reputation of intimidating / attempting to destroy any 'trusted' member of his 'team' who crossed him, so he probably felt pretty safe.
One, you have provided no evidence that this happened during the Alpine stages. (If you have read Whittle's book as well, does he provide a reference?). Secondly, if Armstrong was transfusing "800 ml of packed cells" he would have had no option but to have blood bags hanging around at some point!Dave_1 wrote:no way would Armstrong be sitting in a hotel in Alpe Du Huez with blood bags hanging around...
he will have driven away somewhere to do that stuff...no way will he have been on site of team hotel, buses, TDF areas...I found the fact he did not attend the Casartelli memorial service on the TDF rest day after the pyrenees in 05 quite tellling-too busy...
Emma O'reilly I would bet ..maybe got hired cause she did a good job but pretty as well as giving good leg rubs..i should know...I got a few massages off her pre USPS..infact drove around France with her for a few days too
...was amazed 0 -
Maybe, but he clearly did not know for sure when this 'alleged' incident actually occurred. He is a professional journalist and if he had known I am sure he would have said so rather than saying 'I imagine it was the second rest day of the 2004 Tour'.DaveyL wrote:You don't think Walsh talked to Vaughters? I bet he did. And I bet he got a lot more detail on the story than is given in the book.
I wasn't. I actually said that "he was hardly 'riding the socks' off anyone at this stage in the race", which I think is fair comment.DaveyL wrote:And to suggest Landis had poor form after the first rest day, because he came in 30 sec down on the GC favourites on one stage, and 21 seconds down on the next, is laughable...
Perhaps Armstrong and Bruyneel let him take on board his "800 ml of packed cells" during the second rest day so that he could ride in defence of Armstrong during those crucial stages.DaveyL wrote:He certainly was on fire on the stage to Le Grand Bornand
Wow! so Coyle also talks about the blood bag incident? I must have missed that one.DaveyL wrote:It is also corroborated by Daniel Coyle's book, "Tour de Force" which documents an altercation between Bruyneel and Landis after the AdH TT.
Maybe, but as you say 'tensions had been running high' all the way through the race, and this argument need not be connected to the blood bag incident at all.DaveyL wrote:Tensions had been running high anyway between Landis and the USPS management due to Floyd deciding to jump ship to Phonak, and Bruyneel accused Landis of riding "too well" (i.e. for himself) on the AdH TT.
Go on then if it is not hard, show me the connection, other than the one that exists in your own mind.DaveyL wrote:It's not hard to connect this altercation with the blood bag anecdote, and Landis's subsequent fury fuelling his ride on the stage the next day.
Well my theory does fit all the facts perfectly well, unlike your alternative explanation.DaveyL wrote:Or, we could go with your theory...
By the way Dave, it seems that you are now arguing that the 'blood bag' incident did actually occur and that it happened on the second rest day. My scenario helps to explain Landis' strong riding in the Alps. How do you explain this if his "800 ml of packed cells" went down the toilet sometime during the second rest day? 0 -
Believe the Barloworld staff and Moises Duenas was transporting his own blood infusion equipment, one of those stands to hang the drip bag on and a small supply of needles, wipes and tubing with an outsider bringing in the the blood when it was needed. All the kit could be collapsed into a small holdall and it only takes someone with a cooler bag or icepack to bring the blood.
As Vaughters and Andreu hinted, the suggestion is that US Postal used a motorbike with insulated panniers to ship in the supplies, either from a fixed point or from a camper van following the race.0 -
Maybe, but lets not forget that the 'alleged' incident involved Landis' blood bag, not Armstrong's. I am quite prepared to believe that Armstrong's own 'supplies' were safely stored in a camper van somewhere under the care of Dr. Ferrari or one of his trusted haemotologists.Dave_1 wrote:he will have driven away somewhere to do that stuff...no way will he have been on site of team hotel, buses, TDF areas...0 -
Aurelio, i don't doubt he transfused...but surely by 04 with his foundation getting big, his reputation...surely he'd have been shit scared of anyone seeing him at it...Lance A's most trusted, and that's all ...those people pretty much hold his life in their hands still today...am sure the could destroy him. Take Ullrich as an example, he went off to Fuentes, Kloeden it apears had a different source of doping. if you had such a serious secret, you'd never have 15 or more people in on it..it would get out..0
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So, as I suggested above, perhaps he let the team 'get on with it' using the 'team supplies', whilst he took more rigorous precautions and only dealt with the likes of Ferrari somewhere more 'private'.Dave_1 wrote:Aurelio, i don't doubt he transfused...but surely by 04 with his foundation getting big, his reputation...surely he'd have been shoot scared of anyone seeing him at it.0 -
aurelio wrote:
So, as I suggested above, perhaps he let the team 'get on with it' using the 'team supplies', whilst he took more rigorous precautions and only dealt with the likes of Ferrari somewhere more 'private'.Dave_1 wrote:Aurelio, i don't doubt he transfused...but surely by 04 with his foundation getting big, his reputation...surely he'd have been shoot scared of anyone seeing him at it.
Perhaps, but LA would have been shit scared of blood bags and the like being around his entourage or team members...the Andreu story about him pulling up road side on the way down to Milan San remo 1999 to a caravanette motohome for tests would likely be what happened..even the Landis story of motos arriving wi blood bags , driving into the car park in full view of TDF teams...would seem incredibly risky...he was clever...but if Landis has those pics...he will have some baragaining power
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But the transcript said nothing about 'motos arriving wi blood bags , driving into the car park in full view of TDF teams'. What's more likely is that the bags were delivered to one of the team's transfer vehicles somwhere en route, and usually the transfer vehicles go nowhere near the race route.Dave_1 wrote:the Landis story of motos arriving wi blood bags , driving into the car park in full view of TDF teams...would seem incredibly risky.
But he could only make them public by implicating himself as well, and he is never going to do that.Dave_1 wrote:if Landis has those pics...he will have some baragaining power0 -
aurelio wrote:
But the transcript said nothing about 'motos arriving wi blood bags , driving into the car park in full view of TDF teams'. What's more likely is that the bags were delivered to one of the team's transfer vehicles somwhere en route, and usually the transfer vehicles go nowhere near the race route.Dave_1 wrote:the Landis story of motos arriving wi blood bags , driving into the car park in full view of TDF teams...would seem incredibly risky.Dave_1 wrote:if Landis has those pics...he will have some baragaining power
I think there should be severe restrictions on those with accreditation being allowed to visit riders during the race, in the evenings and so on as well riders making themselves generally available to race officials within an hour of being requested..
ASO tried to ban Urs Zimmeran for not taking a plane transfer at the 1991 TDF but the peloton went on strike over it as UZ was scared of flying, there must be some rules i guess on how far fromthe event a rider can get and still be in it..I wonder what the rules are on how far from the event riders can freelance in the evening, rest days etc?0
