RLJ traps is soft touch policing

DonDaddyD

I was disgusted to see the number of police officers outside Balham tube and Tooting Bec tube station.

In both instances they were RLJ traps. Now I'm not here to debate whether RLJing is bad, whatever my personal view it is illegal and if caught cyclists should be fined. But the police knew that Wednesday and Thursday was going to see an increase number of cyclists, most of whom probably doing so as an alternative.

Instead of doing something truly positive and to truly encourage and increase cycling safety they used the opportunity to target cyclists and exploit the situation to line their pockets.

An RLJ trap is nothing more than a ploy to make money, in the same way speed camera's were and the whole spate of tactics used to target and bleed money out of motorists.

It bothers me, because I've seen crimes committed in these areas and there is never a Police Officer or a Community Support Officer in the area, yesterday they numbered in the double digits.

Why don't they do some proper policing and community support for a change instead of only showing a presence when the situation suits them most.

[/Rant]

tardington

Did you get caught then?

The Rookie

You would complain if teher was a known junction for car drivers RLJing and the Police did nothing, what goes around ....

I guess the peds got fed up with you 'rules don't apply to me' attitude?

Simon

DonDaddyD wrote:

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead

Babelfish wrote:

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly Jumped the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead

Jamey

I go past Tooting Broadway (as opposed to Bec) at there was a police van actually parked on the junction itself for the whole day (I assume, it was there for both my morning and evening journeys) yesterday. However, I didn't see any officers around either time. Maybe they just parked there and were up the road at Broadway but either way I agree with you, it's a pretty cheap shot.

I'm sure they'll say they were doing it for our safety.

DonDaddyD

tardie wrote:

Did you get caught then?

I didn't RLJ, I did, however, go past the ASL because a car was waiting in it. I moved as far as the end of the curb.

In all honesty, it is very very rare and very few and far between when I RLJ. I also never RLJ at junctions, where police like to set up their traps... :roll:

Jamey

The Beginner wrote:

You would complain if teher was a known junction for car drivers RLJing and the Police did nothing, what goes around ....

I think the point DDD is making is about the timing... the fact that they decided to do it on a day when they knew there would be a lot of extra cyclists who were only biking to work because the tubes were closed.

Roastie

Or could be seen as positive policing. Knowing that many new riders will be on the road, enforcing the rules visibly so that the new riders don't develop bad anarchistic habits.

I applaud the coppers on this one. Good move.

DonDaddyD

The Beginner wrote:

You would complain if teher was a known junction for car drivers RLJing and the Police did nothing, what goes around ....

I guess the peds got fed up with you 'rules don't apply to me' attitude?

Simon

DonDaddyD wrote:

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead

Babelfish wrote:

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly Jumped the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead

What has this and my brilliant passage, got anything to do with the thread? And why has it been altered so?

Also both junctions are not known for RLJers tbh. The frequency of the lights means that any RLJer has some serious stones.

Stuey01

Jamey wrote:

I think the point DDD is making is about the timing... the fact that they decided to do it on a day when they knew there would be a lot of extra cyclists who were only biking to work because the tubes were closed.

Who aren't used to commuting by bike and therefore need protecting from themselves...

Not saying that is my view but I can understand the thought process you could go through that would arrive at doing it on this day rather than any other.

tardington

I guess maybe they should just have stopped and warned the novice RLJers, rather than fining them.

I would be very surprised if any of them (the RLJers) actually thought they were allowed to, though!

DonDaddyD

Roastie wrote:

Or could be seen as positive policing. Knowing that many new riders will be on the road, enforcing the rules visibly so that the new riders don't develop bad anarchistic habits.

I applaud the coppers on this one. Good move.

It isn't positive policing though. Positive policing would be to always have a permanent police presence on these roads. They don't. Positive policing would be to police the cab drivers who stop two abreast along the stretch of road between Balham and Tooting causing cars to merge into single file.

Positive policing isn't about targeting a minority on a specific two days because you know they'll be a soft touch.

I've got nothing against catching and fining RLJers, my probably is that its on roads, that aren't the most dangerous, but have on oscassion been devoid of a police officer when one has been needed.

Aidy

Very deja vu, didn't we have exactly the same thread the other day?

MrChuck

I don't have a problem with this. It's not like they're simply stopping cyclists and extracting money from them. No RLJ == no fine, pretty simple really?

Now, they could just tell the errant cyclists that they really shouldn't do it and send them on their way but that's not much of a disincentive is it? And there's no shortage of people who don't/won't get the message otherwise. Also you could argue that if there are a lot of noobs on the streets then it's an even better time to do it as they're not likely to know better- get 'em before they pick up bad habits.

And another thing! (Ooh, I'm warming up now...) Arguing that Police shouldn't bother with crime X because crime Y is worse is pretty flawed and short sighted IMO. Also the Police have to be seen to be addressing the things that people complain about, which I wouldn't be surprised to hear includes cyclists' behaviour.

And 'bleeding money out of motorists'? Give me a break. Why is it you think speed limits exisit?* Speeding is anti-social behaviour and should be penalised.

*Granted, there may be an argument for motorway limits being too low but I'm thinking of urban/country roads here.

Aidy

Roastie wrote:

Or could be seen as positive policing. Knowing that many new riders will be on the road, enforcing the rules visibly so that the new riders don't develop bad anarchistic habits.

I applaud the coppers on this one. Good move.

I would argue that this could be achieved to a much better effect by warning them.
Fining new cyclists is either going to discourage or make them resentful.

Issuing a warning can be used to educate and inform, but of course this wouldn't be as financially rewarding.

Aidy

MrChuck wrote:

And 'bleeding money out of motorists'? Give me a break. Why is it you think speed limits exisit?* Speeding is anti-social behaviour and should be penalised.

This would be true if speed cameras were placed in such a fashion to encourage safety; accident blackspots and the like.

Putting them at the bottom of a hill as you come out of a 60 zone into a 30 zone - I'm less convinced.

Roastie

So positive policing is addressing the issues you think are important.

DDD for Mayor!

DonDaddyD wrote:

I've got nothing against catching and fining RLJers, ...

Why do I find this hard to believe?

MrChuck

Aidy wrote:

Putting them at the bottom of a hill as you come out of a 60 zone into a 30 zone - I'm less convinced.

Good point I guess. I rarely drive so it's easier for me to see things as black and white. Still, getting fined is optional and I'm struggling to muster much sympathy here.

biondino

Roastie wrote:

Or could be seen as positive policing. Knowing that many new riders will be on the road, enforcing the rules visibly so that the new riders don't develop bad anarchistic habits.

I applaud the coppers on this one. Good move.

Too right. Warn the RLJers, fine the idiotic ones, and fewer people will do it. So many noobs think bikes are ALLOWED to RLJ - teach them otherwise, they won't forget.

But the fundamental point is the one that's been repeated already - DON'T DO ILLEGAL THINGS AND YOU WON'T GET DONE. Yelping at "inappropriate policing" is just your spoiled child whining about not getting his way. Doesn't do you any favours.

Jamey

It's all very well saying don't do anything illegal and you won't get caught but the law abiding majority doesn't exist anymore. Sixty percent of people regularly break the law.

Don't believe me?

Read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6235988.stm

andy83

DonDaddyD wrote:

Roastie wrote:

Or could be seen as positive policing. Knowing that many new riders will be on the road, enforcing the rules visibly so that the new riders don't develop bad anarchistic habits.

I applaud the coppers on this one. Good move.

It isn't positive policing though. Positive policing would be to always have a permanent police presence on these roads. They don't. Positive policing would be to police the cab drivers who stop two abreast along the stretch of road between Balham and Tooting causing cars to merge into single file.

Positive policing isn't about targeting a minority on a specific two days because you know they'll be a soft touch.

I've got nothing against catching and fining RLJers, my probably is that its on roads, that aren't the most dangerous, but have on oscassion been devoid of a police officer when one has been needed.

I think the bottom line is police only do things that suit them ie make money or things that give them an adrenaline rush like a car chase or something

I had my bike stolen a few months ago, had some strange activity round our house and the other night after some very strange things moving in our garden we had a potential distraction burglary happen. when i rang the police the woman said, " no one will be round tonight cos we are actually having stolen cars to deal with". the pure and utter cheek of it.

also this sort of behaviour will not encourage people to get out of the tin cans and be more environmentally friendly

boneyjoe

Having got nicked last year, I now always check for the fuzz before I RLJ!

While I do if safe, was totally phased by the shear numbers yesterday. Its probably good to enforce on major roads at busy times, but those tactics yesterday were pure financial opportunism.

But if it helps the govt to defer a tax rise for a bit longer, then I'm all for it!

simon_ramsey

Positive policing would have been to get as many cycle police out in London as possible giving people advice - cycle security marking at main line stations / security advice. Warning people of the dangers of RLJ'ing would have had a much more positive impact - but I agree still fining the idiots.

bigmat

Cheers for the warning, I'll be cycling past Balham station in around 10 minutes. Its not really a junction where I'd jump the lights though, especially with the road works at the moment. End of the day, if you break the rules you can't complain when you get caught, but I do wonder if its a valid use of stretched police resources, given how little harm is actually done by cyclists.

alfablue

simon_ramsey wrote:

Positive policing would have been to get as many cycle police out in London as possible giving people advice - cycle security marking at main line stations / security advice. Warning people of the dangers of RLJ'ing would have had a much more positive impact - but I agree still fining the idiots.

Yes, doing both would have increased the credibility of their action. Shame they don't do it this way.

biondino

Jamey wrote:

It's all very well saying don't do anything illegal and you won't get caught but the law abiding majority doesn't exist anymore. Sixty percent of people regularly break the law.

Don't believe me?

Read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6235988.stm

Oh I totally believe you - I know I break it! I also know that if I get caught doing it I can't complain if I get punished. That's how it works.

DonDaddyD

Roastie wrote:

So positive policing is addressing the issues you think are important.

So peoples personal safety on a daily basis isn't important? Or more to the point targeting cyclists on a day with additional police resources is more important than ensuring safety on a daily basis?

Look, Balham high street heading towards Tooting isn't the most dangerous road in South London but it isn't without its crime: queue the old lady chasing a guy who had stolen her handbag/shopping down that very street. Where were the police then?

We are talking about the same stretch of road where a cyclist was stabbed in the chest after an altercation with some people in a car.

So yeah, I would rather see police officers on the beat walking the street and generally being available than huddling them up on street corners to target RLJers.

roger_merriman

it might just have been bad/good luck it fell on this day, but regardless a lot of folk do seem to ignore lights particaly when first commuting so seems a way of making people aware of it, the police aren't trying to encourage cycling just keep it legal. and seems it was fairly easy to spot....

much like most speed cameras.

dilemna

Jamey wrote:

It's all very well saying don't do anything illegal and you won't get caught but the law abiding majority doesn't exist anymore. Sixty percent of people regularly break the law.

Don't believe me?

Read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6235988.stm

Are you one of the 60%?

biondino

Heavens, DDD. A one-day operation to discourage RLJing and you're reacting as if they've opened the prisons and given the sex offenders free passes to Alton Towers. It'd be good if Mithras could enlighten us about police procedure, but I imagine it's planned rather better than leaving police stations unmanned and 999 calls unanswered.

dilemna

A red traffic light means stop. What is confusing about that? If you go through it expect to be knocked down or caught and fined. I'm no fan of the police especially given their recent run of high profile indiscretions but they seem to have been spot on the money on wednesday. Cyclists who RLJ at any time are arrogant selfish %&**^£s. On wednesday the police probably thought that there would be widespread RLJing given the increased numbers of cyclists due to the strike and they were right. Seems like a lot of RLJing cyclists were like turkeys voting for Christmas.

The extra police presence on the roads also means they are still doing ANPR checks and acting as a deterrent to other criminals. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Rockbuddy

Jamey wrote:

It's all very well saying don't do anything illegal and you won't get caught but the law abiding majority doesn't exist anymore. Sixty percent of people regularly break the law.

Don't believe me?

Read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6235988.stm

Come on the stuff in this article isn't really on the same level (stealing a pencil from work??? etc). Besides how can you get to a deffinite conclusion from surveying >0.003% of the population?

Anyways, to get back to the OP, for once I agree with DDD I think the actions here were very cynical given the timing and placement. However, in general it would be nice to see more enforcement of the current road laws (not just RLJing but everything). I all to often see people's ears seemingly glued to their mobiles while driving, even seen a few going past police cars and nothing!? The worst thing I saw recently was a kid (maybe 5 or so) hanging out the back of a car waving at me, what kind of parent allows that (not the waving the unrestrained kid out the back window :oops: )....anyways I have little faith in the police or their compitency these days but that's another thread