Kohl confession in L'equipe
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
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Interesting but brief. He says he doped in the past but it was in 2008 that he really began the "top of the range" doping, which explains why he was not winning as much in previous years.
The CERA came from another rider (Schumacher?), not from his Humanplasma/Matschiner connections.
No doubt the UCI will shun him, perhaps firing off another press release to have a go at him when they should be listening to him.0 -
He confirms what many have thought - that there are different levels of doping programmes and only some riders are on the top of the range deals.
Maybe Anne Gripper will be let out of the broom cupboard now?0 -
Yes. There goes the level playing field. The old story: Money talks.
Has Cadel won the Lotto?
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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He's not holding back, that's for sure. I guess it's too much to hope anything will come of it.0
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I alway thought that the UCI kept the passport results to themselves?
Seem's all they've done is give the riders a benchmark to follow, just like the 50% hematocirt levels.0 -
It's totally damning of the UCI's approach.
As some have said for a long time, the UCI's early morning "raids" are so stupidly predictable they seem almost designed to give riders time to inject blood before the stage start. Also Kohl is mocking the bio passport.
Expect Hein McQuaid to either refuse to discuss Kohl in tomorrow's conference or worse, for him to pour scorn on the Austrian.
Unless the UCI announces some heavyweight bans tomorrow, it opens up the idea that the sport is doing next to nothing to clean up, that the moves announced are totally cosmetic and design as sops for media consumption without any real effort to challenge the culture that lives on.0 -
When they tell it in such a matter of fact way, it just seems so scary to be playing with your own blood in such a way that it makes so much difference to how your body performs.
And what about how the big boys just take enough to stay ahead of the second devision riders, rather than try to out perform each other...quite a cosy little arrangement really.Half man, Half bike0 -
If you inject yourself with your own blood that has earlier been extracted, then surely some blood markers will show changes at some point if enough tests are done? IE if you extract in January and then inject through the summer then the January figure will be different even if the ones in the summer show little variation?0
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Ah I'm all for the big hanging-your-balls-out-into-the-wind confession.
He has no interest in joining the peleton again (or so he says), hence the confession. Seems to hold up to the hypothosese proposed in bad blood and other cycling+doping related theories.
Like I've said in the past, i've wanted it to be 'perceived' to be less full of drugs. I think most people have felt over the past 3 years the peleton has got cleaner, something we've all said has increased our enjoyment of the racing, but according to Kohl, they're just better at hiding it... Which, if they keep doing it, rather than getting caught, (I'm looking at you, Kohl, Ricco, Schumacher, Mayo, Rebelin, etc), keeps the enjoyment in it for me, since we'll continue to think it is cleaner....Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
I am surprised the blood passport results are being passed on to the riders...surely the rider should be left to guess a what his blood results were for at the precise moment of the test... as then the rider would surely need a few hours to get his own data verified with his doping dr to know what the UCI hold on him given how quick changes in the blood are when doping. What is the reason for the UCI assisting doping in this way?0
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Uuuummm, because the UCI are following the lead of the medically programmed teams, in wanting to avoid any nasty surprises?
Sure, if you want to catch cheats, you leave them guessing.
If you want to inform potential cheats, just how far they can go........
All about cleaning up the sport's tarnished image, without actually tackling the issue, head on.
"Everybody in the cycling scene was convinced that this EPO was not detectable. Many more riders had taken it. Oddly enough, we were only three to fall. I am convinced that the top ten could have been positive," the Austrian said. "It just happened to be me, tough luck. I didn't ask for a counter-analysis: this masquerade was over."
Scary, but not that surprising."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
It's a passport so you get to see the data.
I think the passport has its uses but more a tool to watch for obvious signs of "cheap" doping like big EPO abuse. In some ways it's fighting yesterday's battles but it will detect some of the berks on small teams who buy things over the internet or rely on small time soigneurs.
But it's not going to worry those employing the likes or Fuentes and Ferrari. Remember, Gerolsteiner's Holczer publicised the emails from a a Spanish university's sports lab specifically offering to guide teams to help keep their riders under the radar, ironic now given what Kohl was doing.0 -
I think some of the past excesses (Mr 60% etc) are in the past because such abuses would be easily detected now.teagar wrote:I think most people have felt over the past 3 years the peloton has got cleaner, something we've all said has increased our enjoyment of the racing, but according to Kohl, they're just better at hiding it
Kohl says himself:
Kohl had two litres of his own blood available for re-injection at the Tour, of which he used 1.5 litres. "Nothing else," he said. "Too many surprise controls. No testosterone patch, nothing, except caffeine, pseudo-ephedrine and some analgesics. EPO, growth hormone, insulin - I took that before [the Tour], not during the race"
So whilst doping is obviously still prevalent, the amount that the riders are doping by is perhaps less, leading to closer racing amongst the dopers.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:"Everybody in the cycling scene was convinced that this EPO was not detectable. Many more riders had taken it. Oddly enough, we were only three to fall.r."
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This is what i have thought. It boosts performance a lot and wasnt known to be detectable by anyone (apparently) so you would have thought that loads of people would be on it given the general background of cycling. For me, the three (Pieopli as well i thought?) stuck out from previous performances. Maybe this shows they took a lot of it and were therefore easier to detect? All speculation0 -
Bronzie wrote:
I think some of the past excesses (Mr 60% etc) are in the past because such abuses would be easily detected now.teagar wrote:I think most people have felt over the past 3 years the peloton has got cleaner, something we've all said has increased our enjoyment of the racing, but according to Kohl, they're just better at hiding it
Kohl says himself:
Kohl had two litres of his own blood available for re-injection at the Tour, of which he used 1.5 litres. "Nothing else," he said. "Too many surprise controls. No testosterone patch, nothing, except caffeine, pseudo-ephedrine and some analgesics. EPO, growth hormone, insulin - I took that before [the Tour], not during the race"
So whilst doping is obviously still prevalent, the amount that the riders are doping by is perhaps less, leading to closer racing amongst the dopers.
it's an interesting insight into current doping methods...it's the volumes of training, the intensities they can bank week by week in their training blocks when they are out of competition and bounce back from the fatigue of each week in the block in a 24hrs of rest instead of 3 days rest-hence 2 extra days training gained from drugs over the clean the rider who's tired and overtrained,..it's that that create the athlete some them are0 -
Hm,, translations. This one
http://www.velonews.com/article/93052
puts a slightly different slant on the 'could' test positive...
When I learned that the French authorities were going to make new analysis after the Tour — I reassured myself, OK, I am dead, but others will be dead, too,” he said. “What were the French authorities going to do? Withdraw the complete GC of the Tour? I knew they wouldn’t dare. Bizarrely, only three of us took the fall. I am convinced that the top 10 would be positive.”0 -
It's a comforting and rather old idea that doping just allows riders to train harder. However, whilst some drugs like testosterone and steroids might aid recovery / allow a rider to benefit from a higher training load, when it comes to the 'big guns' like Epo and "800 ml of packed cells" blood doping, the benefits come on top of, and more-or-less independently of, any benefits to be gained from training.Dave_1 wrote:it's an interesting insight into current doping methods...it's the volumes of training, the intensities they can bank week by week in their training blocks when they are out of competition and bounce back from the fatigue of each week in the block in a 24hrs of rest instead of 3 days rest-hence 2 extra days training gained from drugs over the clean the rider who's tired and overtrained,..it's that that create the athlete some them are
Raising ones haemocrit by the use of Epo /blood doping can have a very significant impact on one's sustainable power output (usually in the range of 5-15%). Blood haemocrit also rises in response to altitude but this is not something that can be achieved by training per se. In fact training usually causes blood haemocrit levels to fall due to an increase in the volume of blood plasma. In addition some riders benefit much more than others from such doping, with, for example, a rider having a natural haemocrit level of 48% having much less to gain from boosting it to '49 and a bit' % than one whose natural haemocrit level is in the upper 30's.
The idea that rider pack in hours and hours of hard, exhausting training is also a myth. True they spend hours on their bikes but much of this is (for them) pretty low-level stuff, the benefits of which are an improved efficiency, ability to metabolise fats and so on. True, they also do very high-intensity work but the ability to tolerate such efforts is not that much different in a professional than an average fit rider.
The time the various metabolic systems are able to fuel efforts of increasing intensity are pretty much fixed by physiology, so a pro can pretty much ride no longer at 100% effort than you or I could. However, at each level of effort they will be going a lot faster!0 -
The 27-year-old Austrian said the blood transfusions were the only “safe” way to cheat during the race without risk of getting caught. Other doping products were used in the weeks and months before the Tour to avoid detection.
http://www.velonews.com/article/93052
We knew that already!
Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan
Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells
FDREU: they have it mastered. good point
Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine
FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed
FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig
Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers
Cyclevaughters: on the rest day
Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing
FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels
Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis ... ssage.html0 -
Which was exactly the thinking behind the introduction of the '50%' limit...Blazing Saddles wrote:Uuuummm, because the UCI are following the lead of the medically programmed teams, in wanting to avoid any nasty surprises? Sure, if you want to catch cheats, you leave them guessing. If you want to inform potential cheats, just how far they can go........0 -
Good to see that Cycling has made the mainstream headlines here in Australia today. Fox Sports carrying a news banner stating
"Top ten at 2008 TdF doped" in light on Kohl's comments. (BTW - just google that headline; it's everywhere).
So here's the list:
1 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto
3 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner
4 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
5 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30
6 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
7 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi
8 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia
9 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne
10 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale
I don't know what is more worrying - the fact Kohl could be apparently so absurb to suggest such a thing, or the deafening silence from these riders?0 -
is there the slight possibility that Kohl smears the top 10 to reduce the seriousness of what he did...? make it seem he had to cheat cause everyone did...no possibility he might be one of the few who cheated in top 100
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Dave_1 wrote:is there the slight possibility that Kohl smears the top 10 to reduce the seriousness of what he did...? make it seem he had to cheat cause everyone did...no possibility he might be one of the few who cheated in top 10
I dunno to be honest. He doesn't really have anything to gain from lying anymore. The only thing he has to gain now is to get it all off his shoulders. In order to do so, he has to tell the truth as he sees it. I'm not sure of he's right or not but I think he believes he's right.
Likewise with Vaughters comments. On one hand Vaughters wasn't happy about the situation when looking to sign him, so ended his interest. But that doesn't mean that Silence-Lotto were the same.Scottish and British...and a bit French0 -
Quite possibly. But remember he was busted for CERA and no one caught him blood doping, it's highly possible many others were using this technique.Dave_1 wrote:is there the slight possibility that Kohl smears the top 10 to reduce the seriousness of what he did...? make it seem he had to cheat cause everyone did...no possibility he might be one of the few who cheated in top 10
Apparently he is grassing on people behind the scenes, giving up names and techniques.0 -
dulldave wrote:Dave_1 wrote:is there the slight possibility that Kohl smears the top 10 to reduce the seriousness of what he did...? make it seem he had to cheat cause everyone did...no possibility he might be one of the few who cheated in top 10
I dunno to be honest. He doesn't really have anything to gain from lying anymore. The only thing he has to gain now is to get it all off his shoulders. In order to do so, he has to tell the truth as he sees it. I'm not sure of he's right or not but I think he believes he's right.
Likewise with Vaughters comments. On one hand Vaughters wasn't happy about the situation when looking to sign him, so ended his interest. But that doesn't mean that Silence-Lotto were the same.
Maybe this has been said before but I wouldn't think that riders would offer up any information to other riders about their doping habits. Maybe to a "partner" but certainly not
to "everyone". So most riders would simply be guessing or speculating about all the others. And, of course, this would bring into question their motives for making any claims.
Reminds me of a movie line for some reason. "I've got the motive which is money and I've got the body which is dead". Don't kow why that applies but I've always wanted to use it.0 -
I just don't see the logic.
A guy who is caught holds his hands up, confesses and walks away from the sport.
Yet, at the same time, colours his confession with a "made up" smear campaign, that gets him exactly nowhere.
The only benefit to be found, is in the confession itself, so to spin lies around it, would simply be turning one lie into another.
Surely, if there's a credibility issue, it lies elsewhere?"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Agreed Dennisn.
Consider that none of the other nine are on his team so him 'being convinced' doesn't really hold much weight with me. Has he heard this from their mouths (would you tell a competitor this information)? Has he heard from the 'suppliers' (would they talk about it)?
I find both doubtful so take this statement with a pinch of salt. It is good that he is being open yet he shouldn't cast aspersions unless he does so concretely. There are too many 'rumours' and 'assumptions'. The only thing that matters is evidence of one sort or another.
Would he suspect this also simply because despite him having the works, they were able to keep up with him? This doesn't fly either, as even if you take a top amateur and give him every possible artificial enhancement he still wouldn't come close to the top guys regardless of whether they doped or not.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:I just don't see the logic.
A guy who is caught holds his hands up, confesses and walks away from the sport.
Yet, at the same time, colours his confession with a "made up" smear campaign, that gets him exactly nowhere.
The only benefit to be found, is in the confession itself, so to spin lies around it, would simply be turning one lie into another.
Surely, if there's a credibility issue, it lies elsewhere?
One would think that he is being advised on what to say by a lawyer. One would think?
All I can say is that a bunch of talk will probably only get you into hotter water.0 -
All I know is that this really stinks. It is now impossible to fully enjoy any race result, because we cannot know whether the winner was clean. I don't know whether to believe Kohl about the top 10 at the Tour or not, as he does not indicate personal knowledge on the subject, but it's difficult to say that he is surely wrong.0
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Sadly pro cycling has been like this for the past 18 or 19 years, the arrival of EPO and then blood doping distorts a rider's performance to such an extent that many races are won and lost by the team doctor or the rider's "coach".Crown Jewel wrote:All I know is that this really stinks. It is now impossible to fully enjoy any race result, because we cannot know whether the winner was clean.
For me, the trick is to enjoy the race within the race, to identify the riders presumed to be clean and see how they do. For example, how well will Dan Martin and David Moncoutie do tomorrow on Mont Ventoux, Moncoutie especially sat up in the TT today so might be saving himself.0
