As a motorists my view on RLJing

DonDaddyD

The Beginner wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

In my experience, cyclists have always been viewed as a nuisance.

Well with your advocated riding habits its no suprise really is it?

I think this is an unfounded assumption. You haven't ridden with me, you have no clue how competent a cyclist I am. Anything you say to the contary is an assumption, wild and unsupported.

Actually I'm going by the fact that you not only admit RLJing but are advocating it, that is all I need to know really.

Laws may be for the abeyance by fools and the guidance of wise men, but the best way for the wise men to get the fools to obey the rules is by setting a good example, you can't complain at the actions of other raod users when you happily flout them yourself, that is after all the first step towards anarchy.

Simon

I never said I RLJ, however I defy anyone who can honestly say that they have never ridden through a red light. (Clear and empty country lane with a traffic light on red....)

I think you're attaching my quizical question to some made up assumption of me possibly to either vilify or help justify your view....

DDD, while I respect your honesty in posing these questions and don't doubt your intentions, the statement above is used by those opposed to allowing cyclists to use the roads and instead forcing them onto inadequate cycle facilites, away from that 'nasty traffic'.

Thing is as a motorist, today, I don't really consider bicycles as 'part of the traffic'. There are many vehicles (buses for example) that I don't consider 'traffic' chieifly because if a bus stops and I can I will overtake it.

Bike's don't and can't act as 'traffic' it would be dangerous for them to do so completely. Equally it would be dangerous if bicycles completely ignore the rules.

I just felt, today, that I was somewhat glad the cyclist went through the red light instead of wobbly next to me as we both past the lights.... This doesn't mean that as a cyclist I would in fact RLJ.

Bassjunkieuk

Surely this whole "bikes aren't part of traffic" mentality ties in quite closely with the "must overtake the bike" mentality? When I'm riding my bike I'll usually ride in a manner that I feel ensures I'm safe. If I'm coming to a pinch point or narrow section and can hear someone behind me I'll usually make myself an obstacle to discourage them trying to pass me.

I get rather frustrated when I see cyclist riding along in the gutter as I think this encourages dangerous overtaking and the whole "their not part of the traffic" mentality that results in dangerous passes.

In all the 2 years I've been riding in London I've only ever seen one cyclist rear-ended by a tw4t in a tin box pulling away from lights. I don't think this is bad considering I can be making 10 journeys a week, varying from 8 to 12 miles each way and stopping at dozens of traffic lights.

I can say that I've never felt in danger whilst stopped at a red light and have some faith that the driver at the front of the queue isn't some cyclist killing maniac! Usually as I'm approaching a set of lights I'll try to make an assessment of the best place to stop, which sometimes is something as simple as not racing towards a red light - after all if I've still got some momentum I can keep moving without the need to stop and un-clip. Other times if I do have to stop I'll pick a space where I feel safe, which is something that can vary from rider to rider. Personally I know I can make a fairly quick sprint and be up to 15-20mph at about the same rate and if not faster then most cars in town. There have even been a few times where I've fumbled my clip in and have yet to be run down :-D

DDD - Having ridden with you and quite a few occasions now I think your selling yourself a little short, I'd say your a very competent rider and you shouldn't have any worries about "holding up" cars at lights. The way I look at it is that they can only move off at the speed of the slowest person ahead of them, if that happens to be me on my bike then it's tough sh!t, once I'm up to a comfortable speed I'll soon be out of their way and most likely well before they reach the back of the next traffic jam 10 yards down the road :-)

If all else fails learn to trackstand..........that way you don't need to mess around clipping in and can sprint away from the lights ;-)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can't really see the need personally to jump RL's, even at a clear junction, but can understand why some other cyclist would see it as the easier option.

roger_merriman

essently what bass said any way i take great pleasure if in the mood in leaving the rest of the traffic for dead away from the lights, if not well i can allways potter away, the car is really very unlikely to just drive though me, and mostly cars pull off fairly slowly, some use a fair bit of lead foot but it's largely ineffective.

DonDaddyD

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

Surely this whole "bikes aren't part of traffic" mentality ties in quite closely with the "must overtake the bike" mentality?

Yes, but where does this mentality stem from? When I passed my driving test I was taught to drive with the other vehicles but to overtake (albeit carefully and where safe) things like bicycles, horses, buses (that are stopped at bus stops).

So I query that the very thing that could officially make a bicycle part of traffic in the eye's of the motorist, teaches them (motorists) that they are in fact not traffic.

When I'm riding my bike I'll usually ride in a manner that I feel ensures I'm safe. If I'm coming to a pinch point or narrow section and can hear someone behind me I'll usually make myself an obstacle to discourage them trying to pass me.

This is what I would call riding defensively. I would do the same and expect a cyclist to do the same. I also don't think this action is being 'part of traffic'. At a pinch point in a car I would expect other vehicles to back of occordingly, in a bike I have to react in a manner that encouragesforces them to back off.

DDD - Having ridden with you and quite a few occasions now I think your selling yourself a little short, I'd say your a very competent rider and you shouldn't have any worries about "holding up" cars at lights.

Thanks I don't, but there are instances (any lights along Clapham Common in either direction and heading to Colliers Wood from Wimbledon) where I'm in a queue of traffic between cars and I wish - I could be at the front or simply have gone through the red because the passing cars aren't really giving consideration to my slow speed wobble....

I've positioned myself in the middle of the lane at lights to stop the car behind mowing me down on two occasions:

First time was when I first got the Giant SCR and the guy bumped me.

Second time was when a guy in the Audi and I had words and he drove past me as close as possible.

Bassjunkieuk

DonDaddyD wrote:

Yes, but where does this mentality stem from? When I passed my driving test I was taught to drive with the other vehicles but to overtake (albeit carefully and where safe) things like bicycles, horses, buses (that are stopped at bus stops).

Indeed when I took my driving lessons I was taught about safe overtaking of other road users, which normally meant giving the vulnerable road users as much room as possible. There have been times when riding on quieter roads where I've had cars hold back and actually pass me with about 4 ft of clearance :-) I think the whole "must overtake the cyclist" mentality stems from drivers impatience, who feel the need to race everywhere. In the most serious form they are the same people who will race away from traffic lights just to make up a couple of spaces in queueing traffic.

As for how we officially make a car part of traffic I think the fact that there are rules and guidance about cyclist in the Highway Code should be enough for us to be considered "traffic" which as far as I'm concerned applies to anything using the road. I think the only way we *might* get drivers to better understand cyclist is to require cycle training as part of getting a driving license so they get an idea of what it is like to be on the other side of the door.

roger_merriman

the must overtake now, does seem to be a high dency thing. I really don't notice it when i go back to see my folks.

but regardless there is far more to traffic than just cars. there is a lack of patience around these parts. cars hold lanes as they need to be in them, for the next set of lights etc. all forms of traffic will have to 'hold' the lane. cars often pull out when turning right holding up all the traffic coming the one way until they are let into the other...

Stuey01

DonDaddyD wrote:

I've positioned myself in the middle of the lane at lights to stop the car behind mowing me down on two occasions:

First time was when I first got the Giant SCR and the guy bumped me.

Second time was when a guy in the Audi and I had words and he drove past me as close as possible.

Given this I am not surprised by and sympathise with your view on selective RLJ'ing. It is truly shocking that you are batting 2 for 2 in these instances.

I, for one, position myself in primary at the front of lights or within a queue as a matter of course and have only ever once have had a problem.
Some numpty tried to cut passed me at a pinch point and realised he wasn't going to make it, cue squealing tyres and shouted abuse. My response to this is just to be even more assertive at this particular section - riding 3/4 of the way into the lane, not had a problem since.

DonDaddyD

I've made a seperate thread to discuss the are cyclists part of traffic:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0#15382970

Headhuunter

I still agree with DDD, not sure it's true to say that bikes are not part of the traffic, however they are somewhat separate and different from motor traffic. Suggesting that cars, lorries, vans and other motor traffic also use their judgement and pass through red lights is not practical. As a cyclist, you are very small and manoeverable and you're able to creep slowly to the egde of a junction, check for peds and traffic coming the other way and head across safely, just as peds (usually) do - they go to the edge of the pavement, look both ways and cross carefully. In a car or larger vehicle you are surrounded by glass, bulky metal with a large bonnet potruding in front. Both vision and hearing are vastly impaired. I consider myself a pedestrian with wheels not a car without an engine and no one questions a peds right to cross where or when s/he wishes.

RLJ-ing also not only allows you to escape the whacky races at traffic lights as everyone tries to overtake, it also allows you to get ahead along a clear stretch of road on the other side of the junction without any motor vehicles trying to accelerate past you then suddenly sling a left into a side street or cutting you up as they dodge round the inside of a car which has positioned itself in the middle of the road to make a right turn etc.

I can honestly say that in years of cycling through London, I feel far safer crossing through reds (carefully) and getting ahead of the traffic than waiting with it. Near misses I have had have usually involved motorists cutting across in front of me/misjudging my speed...

Mike400

whyamihere wrote:

My definition of enough space is that I won't be within 1.5-2m of them at any time during the manoeuvre, just in case they get a sudden burst of granny speed.

When I first read that I thought you said "1.5-2CM" lol......

andy83

i dont think RLJ is acceptable anytime

especially when you get idiot drivers that see lights on amber and think they can just chance making that turning and as a result knocking you clear off.

if i come to some traffic lights and there are cars behind me i take up a slightly more central position until i get momentum and speed up then return to normal riding position

im just so glad i never have to drive into work and i only have one commute in rush hour due to working shifts