As a motorists my view on RLJing
DonDaddyD
Posts: 12,689
I drove to work today, will be driving tomorrow as well.
It was while stopped at the lights at a particularly busy and narrow crossing that I came to a revelation:
As a motorist I don't mind cyclists RLJing at (a clear) crossings. RLJing at junctions remains suicide but at crossings it felt like the safer option.
On a clear crossing the cyclist can RLJ, get on with it and they are out of my way so I can happily accelerate not having to move off with cyclists and thus worrying about their slow speed wobble, knocking or bumping into them.
Because they are further along the road I have more time and a better view of the situation ahead (now that traffic is moving) to prepare to drive around the cyclist. This I feel is an easier scenario to navigate than moving off from the lights with a cyclist directly left of me or in my blind spot and squashed between my car and the curb and having another lane of traffic or oncoming traffic to my right.
It feels like less pressure on me as a motorist.
It is in someways how I feel as a cyclist.
It was while stopped at the lights at a particularly busy and narrow crossing that I came to a revelation:
As a motorist I don't mind cyclists RLJing at (a clear) crossings. RLJing at junctions remains suicide but at crossings it felt like the safer option.
On a clear crossing the cyclist can RLJ, get on with it and they are out of my way so I can happily accelerate not having to move off with cyclists and thus worrying about their slow speed wobble, knocking or bumping into them.
Because they are further along the road I have more time and a better view of the situation ahead (now that traffic is moving) to prepare to drive around the cyclist. This I feel is an easier scenario to navigate than moving off from the lights with a cyclist directly left of me or in my blind spot and squashed between my car and the curb and having another lane of traffic or oncoming traffic to my right.
It feels like less pressure on me as a motorist.
It is in someways how I feel as a cyclist.
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
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What we really need is proper enforcement of ASLs to allow cyclists to wait ahead of the traffic or even better, a separate green light for cyclists letting them get a march on motor traffic from the lights.
However I, like you, am a cyclist and so perhaps see the logic in this because ... well... it's to my own benefit as a cyclist.
I rekon the acid test for empathy amongst road users (peds/cyclists whatever) is whether, as a pedestrian, you expect a bike to stop at a pelican crossing or you wave them through. Of course they should stop, them's the rules, but all that momentum going into the brakes when all you as the ped have to do is hold back 5 seconds. I wave cyclists through. Unless they're on fixies, then I step out and try to make them fall off :P
Beer in moderation ... is a waste of beer
If riding an XC race bike is like touching the trail,
then riding a rigid singlespeed is like licking it
... or being punched by it, depending on the day
I do often feel that the safest thing I can do is jump red lights, to avoid the pile up of cars that feel they *have* to floor the accelerator as soon as the light turns amber. Particularly when they've decided they're going to pile into, and beyond the advanced stop line.
Besides the highway code applies equally, if you drive that can still be 3 points on your licence, and if you don't like motorists RLJing you, don't do it to peds - we all have to share the same road!
Simon
Your argument in favour of your right to break the law is a mirror image of the Safe Speeders, who always know when it is safe to break the limit, because they carefully consider their options before doing so.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/eastbradfordcyclingclub/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/eastbradfordcyclingclub/
This is why everyone gets annoyed with everyone else, whether it's a car/cyclist/ped. One driver breaking the "rule" that another adheres to (e.g. one on phone whilst another speeds).
Effectively what you're saying here is "I'll RLJ as long as it's to my advantage, regardless of what the Highway Code states".
DDD I completely agree with the logic of what you're saying in the OP, but we can hardly moan about cars driving "badly" if we do the same.
If the rules aren't working, then change the rules - don't break them.
FCN 8
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
- Terry Pratchett.
Waiting at the lights of a crossing, I could be between two cars, at the front of the queue or beside a car. Doesn't matter. Once the lights go green and I'm pedaling those initial moments moving off from the lights means that I'm going to have a number of cars accelerating past me when I'm at my most wobbly speed. As a cyclist this doesn't feel safe.
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
Shall we allow those things too??
I would argue that:
- There have never been more cars on the road as there are now, especially in London.
[ii] - There have never been more cyclist on the road as there are now.
In my experience, cyclists have always been viewed as a nuisance, something the car must get ahead of. With the increased number of bicycles the nuisance is even more so and people still treat cyclists as something they need to overtake. At lights this is dangerous because at slow moving off speeds cyclists wobble and are vulnearble to overtaking cars.
The increase in road usuage demands that not only the attitudes towards cyclists is changed (new motorist - the ones that are learning to drive now - should be taught to be more aware of cyclists and how to treat/interact with them on the road) but also the rules need to be changed because when the rules were made I don't think they considered:
-This many vehilces, obsticles, complex junctions etc on the road
[ii] - This many non motorised vehicles (bicycles) on the road.
(If suddenly horse riding in England shot up more than 200% and there were as many horses on the road as there are cyclists right now. I'd wager that the rules would change and/or there would be some sort of public annoucement trying to change attitudes).
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
But what you've said here is different. All of the above are wither things that can distract or other road users cannot interpret.
Being allowed, legally, to ride through an empty crossing is entirely different.
It would be like treating all crossings regardless of the lights like a Zebra crossing.
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
can you not hold the pace i normally find cars don't take off terribly fast, they will get to 30/40mph which i'm unlikely to match on the bike but coming away from the lights particaly behind a car or two where on can clip in and roll forward just behind as the car before gets into gear?
as a driver i don't like jumping lights, bike/car what ever as for one it sends the wrong message out, if we want to be traffic we should behave like it, most don't check but simply charge though safe in the knowledge it's clear as it was last time.
I understand why people think its OK to RLJ but its not.
Not RLJ but twice I have nearly been knocked over in town by cyclists ignoring the fact that cars have stopped at 'zebra' crossings and illegally passing the front stationary car, in your book that was OK as well?
Its easy to say as long as its harmless, which it will be until you hit someone, at which point you've proved its not and should stop (and have proven it never was so never should have been doing it!), are you telling me NO-ONE has EVER been hit in those circumstances - exactly!
I'm an unfit 42yo and can hold my space safely in a line of accelerating cars until a comfortable 15mph ish at which point they then pass me as normal, I normally stop just behind the lead car and then pull off behind it taking charge of my piece of road blending back as I approach cruising speed - no probs!
Simon
Forget the message we're give out...
If we were traffic cars wouldn't desperately try to overtake us at the lights as we are moving off or get annoyed when we are at the centre of the lane riding at 20mph/25mph with nothing ahead of us, a sceanrio where many still try and overtake...
Fact is we aren't traffic, we are cyclists. Until we have a motorised engine, front lights, beams and fully working brake lights we won't be traffic. If we had all those things we wouldn't be cyclists we'd be motorcyclists.
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
That's because the people advocating it usually mean that it's OK for them to do it, but not people who aren't blessed with their impeccable judgement (i.e. everbody else). I think a lot of people find that a bit short-sighted.
I think this is an unfounded assumption. You haven't ridden with me, you have no clue how competent a cyclist I am. Anything you say to the contary is an assumption, wild and unsupported.
Er, no... The Zebra wasn't clear. I clearly stated if the crossing is clear.
You know its illegal for a car to pass a crossing, any crossing with a pedestrian still on it. The driver has to look at the crossing establish that its clear, that there isn't anyone else going to try and run across and there aren't any ninja's going to jump out of nowhere before moving off. They do this from behind a windscreen, so why cyclists aren't allowed to do this at crossings with red lights - determine that the crossing is in fact clear - apart from the fact that it is illegal, I don't know.
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
Do you stop at every single Zebra crossing, whether in a car or on a bike?
No, you determine that it is clear and drive/ride across. If you view of said Zebra is blurred/blocked you will slow/stop accordingly.
If you can make that decision why can't you do so at a crossing with red lights? If you've got clear view of the crossing, and can see up both sides of the pavement (as you would a Zebra) then I think you are in a position to determine whether its clear or not.
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
It's very rare for cars to try squeeze though with me, i'm a fairly calm and confident bloke i also ride my bike very much like a car, ie i don't jump lights or dart for gaps. i do filter but much more like a motorbike ie over rather than undertaking.
i probably look fairly confident? i don't ride the roads you do but normally the routes into central look roads where cars are slow beast on a fastish bike your one of the fastest parts of traffic, even i am and i'm far by no means the last word in speedy lycra.
By this logic all crossings would be zebra crossings without lights and we would all use our impeccable judgement and manners to just get along and everyone would go about their day tipping their hats at other road users, whistling and generally being a jolly old soul.
But they aren't and we don't.
Apart from the fact that it is illegal there are more than enough people saying here and in the last RLJ debate http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12616446&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=rlj&start=0 that RLJing, even when you think it is safe, can end in tears. Especially if the roads are soo clogged with cars, how can you see past them to know the crossing is safe to RLJ???
Stuey01 has pretty much answered for me here:
If you can use your judgement and do what you see fit, then obviously it's OK for everybody else to do the same, drivers and cyclists alike. If it's not OK for everybody else to do the same, why not, and why is it different for you?
I think its a myth to believe and expect cyclists to act as though they are part of traffic. The average cyclist cannot move consistently as fast as a car, cannot indicate like a car nor can it accelerate off the line like a car. It cannot give braking or hazard signals like car nor is a bike as safe as a car.
Bicycles are not motorised vehicles and even with an engine would fail many EU regulations.
Fact is a cyclist isn't part of traffic, that is why cyclists ride over to the left and motorised vehicles do everything to overtake. Its also why we don't pay road tax or insurance and are allowed in bus lanes and many have championed for bike lanes. Bicycles are not traffic.
If they aren't traffic but must ride on the road, I figured at a particular spot (the lights) where I hate being a cyclist next or near to cars or being in a car and having bikes swarm around me. In the interests of their safety to the cyclist it would make more sense to allow them to pass through the lights if said crossing (not a junction) was clear. - I'm sure they do this in other countries and it works fine.
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
My logic is as follows:
1. peds should KNOW that they don't have to worry about vehicles crossing when the lights are in their favour. Certainly I don't think anyone should pass through the crossing when a ped is on it. The elderly, people with small children can find it quite stressful if people don't respect the crossing
2. When you are driving/cycling you piece together from all the available information (sights, noises) what is going on around you. Sometimes people follow other road-users in a sheep like fashion. At othertimes, seeing a cyclist going through a crossing may lead to people assuming that the light is green. Theyy shouldn't assume that of course and it would not be a defence for their error but the cyclist would have contributed to the error.
BTW - I don't really understand this comment DDD:
I find that I am almost always quicker off the mark and for the first couple of yards than cars - this means I am already stable by the time they are ready to come past. Also if I am in primary cars cannot get past me until I move over and let them through.
Don't see the problem
J
don't they do this in Europe... not the hat tipping bit but the if it's clear I'm going through the red bit
Very Hairy Roadie - FCN 4
Fixed Pista- FCN 5
Beared Bromptonite - FCN 14
This 'naked streets' thing has been tried in a few places- basically you remove all the road markings/furniture and just rely on people's good sense. Good results I think, but I expect as it becomes normalised people would get just as complacent eventually.
Hmmm... In my view, the safest place to be when stationary is directly in front of the middle of a car. If you can't do it in the ASL due to invading motor vehicles or large number of cyclists, either don't go for the ASL in the first place and stay in primary position in your place in the queue, or get past the obstruction and stop in front of it.
Being stationary beside or between motor vehicles at a junction is suicidal.
People need to be told what to do so badly they'll listen to anyone
Laws may be for the abeyance by fools and the guidance of wise men, but the best way for the wise men to get the fools to obey the rules is by setting a good example, you can't complain at the actions of other raod users when you happily flout them yourself, that is after all the first step towards anarchy.
Simon
Bicycles, buses, motorcycles, black cabs - all traffic, all can use bus lanes.
Horse and cart, also traffic, but I don't know where they stand on use of bus lanes.
Said it before, read cyclecraft, read it again and then ride accordingly. RLJing has no place in a responsible cyclist's behaviour.