Breathing masks

salsajake

13 miles of my commute each way is on fairly busy roads, all urban and many with queues of traffic. On a ride back on Friday, a mate who is a committed (and flipping fast!) club racer and whilst he enjoyed the ride he said the fumes were horrendous. To be honest, I think I have grown used to them so I don't notice, but he reckons they were so bad he didn't want to try to hard whilst we were in traffic for fear of breathing too much in!

He reckons a breathing mask would be a good bet, but I'm not a dawdler and I would have thought they could be very 'claustrophobic' if you were trying to gasp air in and they were too restrictive - also I read that a lot of them mean you end up breathing the carbon dioxide you just exhaled back in.

Does anyone use a 'high performance' model that they could reccomend, it would be worth giving it a go as long as it doesn't partially suffocate me...

Feltup

I hope he doesn't drive then as I remember a report on TV where they found that a passenger in a car inhales far more "bad" fumes than a cyclist travelling the same route.

Gilbie

I read somewhere that its better to be on a bike with your lungs working than sitting in a car just breathing the fumes in. The reason you notice it more when riding is that all your senses are working flat out. I think the masks filter the heavy particles but most of it just gets through. I'm not an expert in this so would be interested to hear other views on if they work?

Gussio

I bought one of the Respro masks a few years back but didn't get on with it. The condensation that quickly accumulates made my nose run, and it was infurating not to be able to wipe it. Found that air escaping caused my glasses to fog up, especially when stopped at lights. Binned the thing after two days.

biondino

If you're stuck behind a bus or a car with a buggered engine, fair enough, but most cars are fine. And I quite like the smell of motorbike exhausts :oops:

salsajake

I can't imagine a filter blocking out the gasses, though they may trap some particulates. I think most modern cars have filters on the climate systems that trap the same particulates, but that is no use if the windows are open or the filters split or missing - I mean who knows where they are and if they work!

Good point about the lungs working, might stop nasties sitting in your lungs as they may be expelled each time you exhale forcibly, unlike sitting vegging in a car. I have taken to turning my head sideways briefly if a van drops a downchange right in front of me, but other than that, think I'll just keep doing what I do.

Greg T

You should tell your mate that the higher you go the better the quality of air.

Therefore a snorkel would be a better bet.

Probably just as useful.

salsajake

biondino wrote:

If you're stuck behind a bus or a car with a buggered engine, fair enough, but most cars are fine. And I quite like the smell of motorbike exhausts :oops:

Sometimes I'm reminded of the smell of go-kart engines and that just puts me in a frame of mind to go faster (40mph dual carriageway downhill overtakes anyone...?)

Headhuunter

I was PMed on this site a few weeks back (following a similar thread) by someone who wants me to use a mask so that they can analyse air quality in various world cities. I was baulking at getting a mask as they are quite expensive and didn't want to buy one, use it a couple of times and throw it out.

The guy sent me a Respro Techno - their top model. I have been using it for a couple of weeks now. It definitely helps stop your throat feeling scratchy, although that possibly more to do with the fact that you are breathing moist air from inside the mask rather than dry, hot city summer air. I also find that when I take the mask off after my commute, it almost feels as if I've used mouthwash, my mouth feels very.... clean! I used to sometimes find that I coughed a bit after arrival but after using the mask, I don't at all. I wear glasses and I do find that it fogs them when I'm standing still at lights sometimes, but not much TBH and as soon as I start moving the fog goes very quickly.

On the negative side, it definitely impedes your breathing, although not as much as I expected, however when you really push it hard, you soon find that you're straining for breath. I cycle along the Old Kent Rd, when traffic is in my way or lights are on red, forcing me to slow down or stop, the mask is OK, but when the way ahead is clear and I want to fly, the mask is a hinderence and slows me down as I can't get enough air. The mask also does make your face a bit sweaty and snotty, which is impossible to wipe away until you take it off. Another problem I have found is that you can't use yuor voice. I tend to shout to warn errant pedestrians of my presence, or scream obscenities when motorists do stupid things in front of me! Now I can't do that, I am swift, silent and deadly...

On balance, I don't think I will be continuing with the mask when this trial thing has finished, but it's a close thing, I am not dead against them. If you don't cycle very quickly, it may not hinder you too much and may be a good thing to try. Also I am told that the Techno model has the highest level of filtration so is the most difficult to breathe through, lesser models may be easier to use.

salsajake

thanks for the info re: the trial, that's really useful. I guess the better the protection, the more the impediment to breathing - everything always has a flipside! I've been OK so far, after 18 months of commuting by bike, no coughing or scratchiness etc and I assume my ride is less polluted than most in London (though not much better probably) and you don't see many people with them on there (well, I don't but then I'm there very rarely).

Can you see the filter parts at all - I'd be interested in how grubby they become how quickly, that would be a good indicator of what is being cut out

Headhuunter

Yeah the mask itself is literally a neoprene, stretchy strip thing which velcros round the back of your head. The filter is a white pad inside. Mine has definitely gone a bit greyer than when it was new. The filter lasts 60 hours of use I'm told, then you have to put a new one in. There are pictures on the net.

salsajake

thats a month of riding then per filter, and I guess some of the stuff that would otherwise have been breathed in but got stuck in the filter would have been breathed out again straight away in any event...

Headhuunter

I'm sure some of the stuff you breathe in will go straight out again, the lungs have their own natural filtration system, however their will be some chemical absorption, car and diesel fumes have lots of nasties in them. PM10 particles are another danger, they are quite commonly pushed out by dirty diesels like buses. They are so microscopic that they can bypass your lungs' filtration and cause cancer. The Repro Techno supposedly filters these out, however I am doubtful that the seal around the face is sufficient to totally exclude them, I am certain that some air gets in round the sides at times. However the mask does seem to help.

I'm a little sceptical of people's claims here that car drivers and passengers inhale far more bad stuff than cyclists. It may be true that car ventilation systems suck in air from near ground level where the bad stuff is, whereas cyclists are higher up, meaning they do not inhale such concentrated pollution, but as a cyclist you are breathing more heavily into your lungs, so the bad stuff gets further into your system than a motorist sat in a car, breathing shallowly.

salsajake

my guess is the argument is that when a cyclist exhales, it is more forceful than a passenger, so whilst you might 'suck in' more 'stuff', you may dislodge it (like when you cough as a reaction to getting something in your lungs) - surely all breathing harder and deeper does is stretch the things that I can't remember what they are called but sounds like garlic mayonnaise (aeloi or something) in your lungs, increasing the surface area, not nec. any 'deeper'

laughingboy

Gussio wrote:

I bought one of the Respro masks a few years back but didn't get on with it. The condensation that quickly accumulates made my nose run, and it was infurating not to be able to wipe it.

I had one of these in the late 90s when I commuted in London. They do the job - the filter is 'active carbon' whatever that means, and it deals with most/some of the fumes. The fact that it is finely porous deals with the particulates, but as the poster above says, the moisture from your breath soon builds up.

If you can put up with a soggy proboscis and slightly reduced ease of breathing then they are worth a try.

Headhuunter

Yeah but when you breathe in whilst working hard (running, cycling or whatever), inhalation is always deeper than exhalation, as your body tries to retain a reserve of air in the lungs after a full exhale so that if for some reason you can't subsequently inhale immediately, you don't keel over dead as you have a small reserve of air in your lungs, which may include pollutants....

Levi_501

I used a Respo mask years ago for running (I was younger!)

I found it really good, but it did make my lungs work harder.

When I wiuld run without a mask, I seemed to be able to run twice as fast !
If you have a spare £20, I cannot see it would be a bad thing to try.

prj45

I think most people that use facemasks don't change the filters and end up sucking in more concentrated stuff than they would without them.

always_tyred

laughingboy wrote:

Gussio wrote:

I bought one of the Respro masks a few years back but didn't get on with it. The condensation that quickly accumulates made my nose run, and it was infurating not to be able to wipe it.

I had one of these in the late 90s when I commuted in London. They do the job - the filter is 'active carbon' whatever that means, and it deals with most/some of the fumes. The fact that it is finely porous deals with the particulates, but as the poster above says, the moisture from your breath soon builds up.

If you can put up with a soggy proboscis and slightly reduced ease of breathing then they are worth a try.

Active carbon - high surface area charcoal, basically. Is usually grated coconut husk, heated in a low oxygen atmosphere => active carbon.

Works great in theory. Pretty much everything that passes through sticks to it. Used in industrial fume hoods and so on.

Problem with face masks is that air will get in via the easiest route, which is usually around, rather than through, the filter.

But hey, even in cities, with modern medicine and a reasonable lifestyle, we are all living well beyond our useful years, so ditch the filter and don't worry too much.

Headhuunter

Certainly I think some air goes round the side of these masks, the fit over the face isn't absolutely and completely airtight, it's not a bio hazard face mask! However when I'm using it, if I put my hand in front of the mask, I can feel the air coming through it. I think only a tiny bit of air escapes round the sides to be honest.

always_tyred

Headhuunter wrote:

Certainly I think some air goes round the side of these masks, the fit over the face isn't absolutely and completely airtight, it's not a bio hazard face mask! However when I'm using it, if I put my hand in front of the mask, I can feel the air coming through it. I think only a tiny bit of air escapes round the sides to be honest.

I'm not sold - you might be right. I think my view is biased because of my fundamental belief that they aren't necessary anyway. I mean, you breathe the same air the rest of the day anyway (unless you building has active carbon air filters).

salsajake

not really the same air. The problem with cycling is your proximity to exhaust pipes, whereas lots of M&E kit on buildings draws it from the roof

are the masks easy to flip off under your chin when you are really going for it, or do they pretty much have to stay in place once they are on?

il_principe

Horrible things - impossible to breathe in if you're moving at a decent clip and uncomfy to boot. I tried a Respro one for a week or so then binned it. I commute in central London and can't say that the fumes really worry me - except when I get stuck behind a garbage disposal truck. :shock:

Headhuunter

Always Tyred wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Certainly I think some air goes round the side of these masks, the fit over the face isn't absolutely and completely airtight, it's not a bio hazard face mask! However when I'm using it, if I put my hand in front of the mask, I can feel the air coming through it. I think only a tiny bit of air escapes round the sides to be honest.

I'm not sold - you might be right. I think my view is biased because of my fundamental belief that they aren't necessary anyway. I mean, you breathe the same air the rest of the day anyway (unless you building has active carbon air filters).

Yes but when you're sitting at your desk at work you're only breathing fairly shallowly, whilst cycling you're breathing pollutants more deeply into your lungs and as the last poster points out, you're closer to all those exhaust pipes. My Respro Techno has a metal clip thing across the nose that you can use to tighten the fit round the top of the face

always_tyred

Headhuunter wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Certainly I think some air goes round the side of these masks, the fit over the face isn't absolutely and completely airtight, it's not a bio hazard face mask! However when I'm using it, if I put my hand in front of the mask, I can feel the air coming through it. I think only a tiny bit of air escapes round the sides to be honest.

I'm not sold - you might be right. I think my view is biased because of my fundamental belief that they aren't necessary anyway. I mean, you breathe the same air the rest of the day anyway (unless you building has active carbon air filters).

Yes but when you're sitting at your desk at work you're only breathing fairly shallowly, whilst cycling you're breathing pollutants more deeply into your lungs and as the last poster points out, you're closer to all those exhaust pipes. My Respro Techno has a metal clip thing across the nose that you can use to tighten the fit round the top of the face

Are the alveoli "deeper" in your lungs more succeptible to atmospheric pollutants? I don't see the merit of the depth of breathing argument. The total exposure is the relevant measure, surely? In that case, say you are cycling for 30 minutes each way. Is a partially effective mask for an hour a day going to make a significant dent in your total exposure over a 24 hour period?

I honestly don't know, but again, I'd not be so sure that the air quality on the street (which is rather well ventilated) is a great deal worse than the air quality in an office, or sat in your car.

Gussio

jashburnham wrote:

Horrible things - impossible to breathe in if you're moving at a decent clip and uncomfy to boot. I tried a Respro one for a week or so then binned it. I commute in central London and can't say that the fumes really worry me - except when I get stuck behind a garbage disposal truck. :shock:

Some of bin lorries are smelling really unpleasant since the sunshine returned - not nice to follow them!

Headhuunter

Always Tyred wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Certainly I think some air goes round the side of these masks, the fit over the face isn't absolutely and completely airtight, it's not a bio hazard face mask! However when I'm using it, if I put my hand in front of the mask, I can feel the air coming through it. I think only a tiny bit of air escapes round the sides to be honest.

I'm not sold - you might be right. I think my view is biased because of my fundamental belief that they aren't necessary anyway. I mean, you breathe the same air the rest of the day anyway (unless you building has active carbon air filters).

Yes but when you're sitting at your desk at work you're only breathing fairly shallowly, whilst cycling you're breathing pollutants more deeply into your lungs and as the last poster points out, you're closer to all those exhaust pipes. My Respro Techno has a metal clip thing across the nose that you can use to tighten the fit round the top of the face

Are the alveoli "deeper" in your lungs more succeptible to atmospheric pollutants? I don't see the merit of the depth of breathing argument. The total exposure is the relevant measure, surely? In that case, say you are cycling for 30 minutes each way. Is a partially effective mask for an hour a day going to make a significant dent in your total exposure over a 24 hour period?

I honestly don't know, but again, I'd not be so sure that the air quality on the street (which is rather well ventilated) is a great deal worse than the air quality in an office, or sat in your car.

I have read in several places that air pollution on main roads is quite a lot higher than a quieter road only a short distance away. I just did a quick scan one website (see below) says that asthma is more marked in children living near main roads. Another link says that "those houses that are close (<10m) to a busy main road will be subject to higher levels of pollution than those houses set further back or on side roads."

Also "If cycle paths were located away from roads the health risks would be greatly reduced, reported The Sunday Times yesterday. At 10 metres from traffic, pollution levels drop by 90 percent. "

http://www.bromley.gov.uk/environment/e ... ty_faq.htm
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/conte ... 64/12/2177
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/20307/Cycli ... -heart-doc

As for cyclists breathing more pollution, it seems perhaps that it has less to do with how deeply you breathe but how hard you cycle and how much air you need and how hard you breathe:

"How hard do you ride? The harder you ride, the more air -- and
therefore pollution -- you take in. "

So whilst you're sat at your desk away from main roads, shielded in a building whilst breathing fairly shallowly, your exposure to pollutants is reduced.

However regarding pollution inhaled by cyclists vs motorists, it seem the jury's out:

"Drivers of cars are exposed to up to eighteen times more pollution
than "ambient air", approximately 300 feet from the road. Cyclists share
the road with cars, but they do not trap pollutants, and they take air in
at a much higher position than cars (assuming a diamond frame)"

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/p ... ion-6.html

Soul Boy

I found wearing one brought my face up in spots, having the sweaty mask next to my skin. Really uncomfortable in warm weather too.

Also heard, though could well be incorrect, that the carbon filter doesn't work too well when damp, and thats about 3 mins into a ride in my experience.

Weighing up the pros and cons, didn't really find one necessary and don't think I have any respiratory problems.... well no more than the average smoker :oops:

Headhuunter

Must admit, I used the mask when it was raining quite heavily a couple of weeks ago and found that the mask was tougher to breathe through...

always_tyred

Interesting articles. The UoE one in particular seems to be quite drastically flawed and another good example of academics who should be muzzled before over reaching themselves publically and making hugely extrapolated and not terribly practical or thought out conclusions.

Oh, I don't know. Its pretty moot - I can't imagine subjecting myself to the discomfort of wearing a mask. Might as well give up cycling or move somewhere less polluted. Which I have anyway.

Headhuunter

Always Tyred wrote:

Interesting articles. The UoE one in particular seems to be quite drastically flawed and another good example of academics who should be muzzled before over reaching themselves publically and making hugely extrapolated and not terribly practical or thought out conclusions.

Oh, I don't know. Its pretty moot - I can't imagine subjecting myself to the discomfort of wearing a mask. Might as well give up cycling or move somewhere less polluted. Which I have anyway.

As I said, I probably won't use the mask beyond the end of this trial period. I used to do my commute along quieter side street rather than up the Old Kent Rd, perhaps I should go back to that...