Cavendish & “disrespect”

Pokerface

I've met Mark Cavendish. One of the quietest, shyest riders I've come across during my time at British Cycling. Encyclopedic knowledge of cycling and can give you a frame by frame of any final sprint he's been in.

Great respect for the sport and other riders. When he wins - it's due to his team. When he loses it's his own fault. According to him anyway.

I have no idea why people say he is rude and disrespectful and conceited. He is a genuine person.

I can guarantee you that he did not ask to leave the Giro. And it really bugs me when people who clearly don't know much about cycling presume to know the best preparation, training methods, recovery rates and the toll a 3-week stage race can take on a rider, let alone a sprinter.

Anonymous

Pokerface, I too can't understand what the problem is, what you have said comes across when he is interviewed every time, well it does to me and you've just confirmed what I thought...

simon_e

Moomaloid wrote:

Mark Cavendish is best thing that has happened to British Cycling in a very long time. He can do whatever he wants as far as i'm concerned

+1 and then some.

I love his provocative talk. Sport has too many cardboard cutouts, but not only does Mark have plenty to say but he's got the legs (and brains) to go with it. The boy's special, no doubt, and he's one of ours. I loved the sandbagging for MSR, it shows there's a lot more going on that we know about.

I'm quite sure he'd be the first to admit that he wants to complete the Giro - there's no doubt to me he has a lot of respect for the sport and what races mean - but we all know riding both that and the TdF is hard for any rider, least of all a young sprinter who's not so great on the big mountain stages. I'll be more than happy to trade a Giro finish this time for a repeat of those emotional wins I watched last July. Go Bingo!

mattsy666

Cav rides well beyond his years ... it took McEwen about 5 years of whining to get results to back it up ... Cav is backing it up as we speak ...

BUT, he is no Cipo ... TdF gave Saeco the big KB then he went on to win MSR and the World Champs in his 'twilight' years ... and then total Giro stages ...

I think he should finish the race out of respect ... or accept the humility of not reaching the cut-off ... I can only imagine what would be said if LA packed it in ... he turned up unfit out of courtesy and honour (he doesn't need the $2m) ... Cav needs the Giro at this stage in his career ... Pettachi was feeeling his arse just a week ago ...

tri-sexual

its easy to knock mark with talk of disrespect, these same people will bitch about him if he performs poorly in the TDF and will say that he is unprofessional for not resting before the biggest cycling race in the world. hope he destroys the field in the tour, win the green jersey and silence all these critics or at least give them another subject to moan about.

RichN95.

The thing I don't understand about the knocking of Cav is that he seems very well liked amongst his fellow riders (Boonen and Pozzato excepted), and amongst his fellow riders.

Sprinters have always dropped out of Grand Tours early. There's nothing for him in the last nine days and his team are good enough to make an impact without him (unlike some of Cipo's at the Tour).

Perhaps some people would prefer he doped himself up, so he didn't need to rest so much and could ride himself into burn-out.

gregssmirkingrevenge

First of all lets make this clear; I really like Mark Cavendish- i like his brash attitude, his happy-go-lucky charm and I bloody love seeing him win races. Secondly I don't care that he has left the Giro early- as many have said the decision was probably out of his hands and he's completely entitled to do what he or his team thinks is best for the rest of his season.

But this is a genuine question, I know very little about professional training and preparations so can someone please explain to me why this final week will in any way harm his tour preparations??

So far I've seen a lot of people yarn on about recovery rates and the toll on the body of a 3 week stage, but nobody has explained the actual benefits of leaving the race at this stage. He'll be riding his bike tomorrow whether in Italy or on the isle of man or in his front room. Its over a month till the start of le tour, so what's the probably with a getting a few more mountain passes under the belt here in Italy? I mean he is a professional cyclist, he rides he bike every day- I know he's a sprinter, but nobody is asking him to kill himself on a climb or do anything other than spin his way to Rome- why are people reacting so violently to those questioning the decision for him to leave?

Let me re-iterate; i fully support Mark Cavendish and am again and again delighted and impressed in equal measure by his incredible speed and his victories. I certainly don't think he's disrespectful.. He can be deliciously arrogant at times in a sort of amiable, jose mourihnio sort of a way- but thats a good thing. He's like maverick out of topgun- i like arrogance in a fighter pilot (or sprinter).

ian.r.mcdonald

I watched the stage on Friday about 50 k from the fiinish

stood on a rise i would call a hill, the bunch was flying - until you experience the speed,noise and general madness- it is impossible to understand the pressure that sprinters are under, waiting for that last 200 metres. ok thay are being protected- but the pressure myst be immense

lets enjoy a a top contender- rather than wingeing

skavanagh.bikeradar

The list of riders not completing races for spurious reasons is too long to mention it'd take pages. In this Giro I'll give you Fabian Cancellara packing with a p*ss poor excuse/load of nonsense the day BEFORE an ITT. What do you make of that OP?

I for one am quite happy with what Cav does - it works for him and then some. If he's targetting green at the Tour then pulling out of the Giro now makes perfect sense in terms of getting rest and starting a block of training to get him to the start line in top shape. Remember he's been racing since January and will likley keep racing until late in the year.

Slow Downcp

mattsy666 wrote:

I think he should finish the race out of respect ... or accept the humility of not reaching the cut-off ... I can only imagine what would be said if LA packed it in ... he turned up unfit out of courtesy and honour (he doesn't need the $2m) ... Cav needs the Giro at this stage in his career ... Pettachi was feeeling his ars* just a week ago ...

Yeah, 'cos Lance would never target one race and ride little else before or after would he? :roll:

Cav's done what many young sprinters do early in their careers (Boonen etc included) - win a handful of stages and drop out half way through. I don't think the organisers will be too fussed, as he's unlikely to contribute anything through the mountains. There's plenty of time to finish GT's in future years, and win countless green (or Cyclamen) jerseys as long as he doesn't burn out.

Pokerface

I believe Cav is going to ride the Tour of Switzerland as his final build up for the Tour.

Someone asked what the difference is between the training he is doing today (now that he's out of the Giro) and just riding the final week? Today he might go for a leisurely spin to keep his legs loose and not 160KM of lumpy riding at race speeds.

It's easy to say he should just stay in the race, ride the mountains slowly and then try and win the sprint stages. But this type of riding can't just be recovered from in a few days. Takes a lot longer for the full effects to wear off.

This isn't like your weekly club ride - or even a massive sportive you might do on the weekend and then need a few days to recover from.

frenchfighter

Bennati really likes Cavendish and Bennati is the 2nd best sprinter in the World (well first if you are purely looking at style )

There was an article in the latest Cycle Sport magazine on why Cav is so good. It was excellent and really broke down every aspect and showed how far ahead of his opposition he is. I wont go through all the things here, but suffice to say it is worth buying the magazine just for that (in fact a subscription is even better as it is an unbelievably good magazine on a consistent basis).

moray_gub

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

The list of riders not completing races for spurious reasons is too long to mention it'd take pages. In this Giro I'll give you Fabian Cancellara packing with a p*ss poor excuse/load of nonsense the day BEFORE an ITT. What do you make of that OP?

I for one am quite happy with what Cav does - it works for him and then some. If he's targetting green at the Tour then pulling out of the Giro now makes perfect sense in terms of getting rest and starting a block of training to get him to the start line in top shape. Remember he's been racing since January and will likley keep racing until late in the year.

Its quite amusing to see the different takes on the same end...............both mean leave the Giro primarily to prepare for the Tour and one has a p*ss poor excuse and the other makes perfect sense...........lol

SpaceJunk

Mate, as an Australian I thought it was only us who liked to knock down their sports stars, but we've got nothing on the Poms.

Disclaimer first; I'm not a fan of Cavendish. Thing is I can't work out why (maybe it's just because he rides for Bob S).

But Ithe more I read about him, the more I do like him. I actually think he is a team player, and his comments about his team getting him to the line first appear sincere.

His team mates like him; Pinotti was interviewed in 'the other UK mag' recently and certainly respects the guy.

Sure, he might be brash and come out and say he's the fastest in the world blah, blah, blah. But really alll he is stating is the obvious.

He'll pick up another 3 or so wins at this year's TdF. And at 24 he'll amassed over 1/2 the amount of winds McEwen has scored in the Tour - a great feat.

Cumulonimbus

I'd prefer to see everyone complete every race they compete in but then there is a lot in the calendar and people often seem to drop out for various reasons. The Vuelta often suffers due to people leaving to get ready for the World Championships. At the end of the day, Cav did complete it last year. Take this stage

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008//g ... s/giro0817

A different rider would have snatched the win for himself and, seeing that he had no chance on the remaining very tough stages or in the points competition, would have dropped out. Cav finished though, and did a respectable time in the final TT (ok, it was downhill though)

richard wants a baum

I think the point was that Cav bad mouthed Garmin for targetting a stage and now Cavs got his wins his dropped out. Disrespectful? no i dont think so but i probably wouldnt have let fly a Garmin when i planned to do the same thing. Though i wonder how much of that was just stirring up Garmin rather than actually thinking they were being disrespectful. Cant wait to see Cav at the TdF hopefully his interviews post race are as good as last year. More intresting people in the peloton please.

DaveyL

Spot on. There's nothing wrong with what Cav did in packing early, but it looks a bit rich after him mouthing off at Garmin.

I'd have thought the Aussies would have warmed to him after that, what with it basically being the cycling equivalent of cricket's sledging...

Philip S

I haven't seen the interview where Cav put the boot into Garmin's TTT planning, but I'd have thought that it was a bit tongue in cheek, noising up another team, whose riders he either gets along with or in some instances are his mates?

The press and the public get very hot under the collar about the most throw-away of comments from sportsmen, over-analysing things to the point that a jokey dig takes on the appearance of all-out slanging match, if not an ongoing feud... A bit of perspective and the odd pinch of salt wouldn't go amiss in these circumstances.

avoidingmyphd

Cav accused Garmin of a few things. Some of it was tongue in cheek banter. Some was fair enough critique. But nothing he said can open him up to a charge of hypocrisy for quitting a grand tour after 13 stages and several (3 or 4, depending on how you count) stage wins.

One was disrespecting other races - not the Giro, but those they have already raced this season - by announcing that their season started with the TTT. In comparison, quitting the Giro after 13 stages does not express disrespect for Milan San Remo. Obviously.

He also suggested that they were so focussed on the TTT that if it was the start of their season, it was also effectively the end too. Here, he was saying that they were building up the price of failure too high and/or being too unambitious in the range of their objectives. This was obviously banter as it's not true, because Garmin are also building up to do something in the TDF GC with VDV. But that doesn't make him a hypocrite unless you think Cav's ambitions are too narrow. Which would make you crazy. See the list of races he's done this year. Listen to his season or even just career aims.

Any comparisons with Cipo and his eventual persona non grata status at le tour are nonsense too. Cipo used to walk away from the Tour basically fresh because he couldn't (well wasn't willing to) ride up hills. By the time Cav left the Giro he was 2 hours down on GC, which tell us he went through some hurt to keep himself in the race through the mountains. That is respecting the race, not disrespecting it. Cipo wouldn't have even been around for Stage 11 of this year's Giro. Cav won it.

Finally, any suggestion that yesterday's stage was equivalent to some easy spinning training is nonsense. It will make a genuine difference to Cav's green jersey chances that he hasn't struggled through this week's mountains. So here is the only way in which he might be "disrespectful". His programme tells us that he values the wearing the green jersey up the avenue des champs elysee more highly than finishing the giro with no further achievement on top of what he did. But wouldn't we all?

GroupOfOne MkII

While we're on the subject of disrespect, I notice Mr Millar pulled out yesterday. Wonder if that's in any way linked to him riding the Edinburgh Nocturne on the 30th May. E.g. The day before the final stage of the Giro, a ITT that in theory he should've had a reasonable chance at doing well in.

Anonymous

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Cav accused Garmin of a few things. Some of it was tongue in cheek banter. Some was fair enough critique. But nothing he said can open him up to a charge of hypocrisy for quitting a grand tour after 13 stages and several (3 or 4, depending on how you count) stage wins.

One was disrespecting other races - not the Giro, but those they have already raced this season - by announcing that their season started with the TTT. In comparison, quitting the Giro after 13 stages does not express disrespect for Milan San Remo. Obviously.

He also suggested that they were so focussed on the TTT that if it was the start of their season, it was also effectively the end too. Here, he was saying that they were building up the price of failure too high and/or being too unambitious in the range of their objectives. This was obviously banter as it's not true, because Garmin are also building up to do something in the TDF GC with VDV. But that doesn't make him a hypocrite unless you think Cav's ambitions are too narrow. Which would make you crazy. See the list of races he's done this year. Listen to his season or even just career aims.

Any comparisons with Cipo and his eventual persona non grata status at le tour are nonsense too. Cipo used to walk away from the Tour basically fresh because he couldn't (well wasn't willing to) ride up hills. By the time Cav left the Giro he was 2 hours down on GC, which tell us he went through some hurt to keep himself in the race through the mountains. That is respecting the race, not disrespecting it. Cipo wouldn't have even been around for Stage 11 of this year's Giro. Cav won it.

Finally, any suggestion that yesterday's stage was equivalent to some easy spinning training is nonsense. It will make a genuine difference to Cav's green jersey chances that he hasn't struggled through this week's mountains. So here is the only way in which he might be "disrespectful". His programme tells us that he values the wearing the green jersey up the avenue des champs elysee more highly than finishing the giro with no further achievement on top of what he did. But wouldn't we all?

Yeah! So ner!

Good post

skavanagh.bikeradar

Oi Gub! There is a difference between turning up and winning stages and turning up, riding like a drain and exiting stage left the day before your specialism in the race!

I was just trying to make the pont that they both went home, for different reasons with different effects on the race and that Cancellara sneaked under the radar while everyone rails about Cav doing the same - but having ridden well, worn pink and won 3 stages.

Ste_S

No one finishes a Grand Tour out of respect for the race. Finishing is purely for selfish reasons, either their own or their teams.

Why does a rider stay in a Grand Tour ?

1. They're high on GC or in competition for a jersey
2. They're targeting a stage win in the future
3. They're needed to support other riders in the team who are trying for one of the above
4. They need to finish for training

As it applies to Cav

1. Nope.
2. Nope. Lot's of lumpy bits to come. Mebbe would of been in with a chance on stage 18, but worth dragging himself over the proceeding days lumpy bits ? Probably not
3. Cav isn't going to support his team by riding in the autobus every day
4. Nope here too. Cav's main target is the Tour and probably the Green Jersey. He's not going to gain anything by riding the remaining lumpy stages. Better to recover and then start specific training for this.

Monty Dog

Some of the logic being used here is exactly the excuse riders use when justifying the use of PED's i.e. "the races are so long and tough I just need to take drugs to get through the stages..."
Cav's raced something like 54 days this year and everyone's giving him a hard time? I seem to recall one rider soft-tapping through the spring, riding the Dauphine and then riding 19 days of the Tour and packing for the season..smacks of hypocracy to me.

wicked

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Cav accused Garmin of a few things. Some of it was tongue in cheek banter. Some was fair enough critique. But nothing he said can open him up to a charge of hypocrisy for quitting a grand tour after 13 stages and several (3 or 4, depending on how you count) stage wins.

One was disrespecting other races - not the Giro, but those they have already raced this season - by announcing that their season started with the TTT. In comparison, quitting the Giro after 13 stages does not express disrespect for Milan San Remo. Obviously.

He also suggested that they were so focussed on the TTT that if it was the start of their season, it was also effectively the end too. Here, he was saying that they were building up the price of failure too high and/or being too unambitious in the range of their objectives. This was obviously banter as it's not true, because Garmin are also building up to do something in the TDF GC with VDV. But that doesn't make him a hypocrite unless you think Cav's ambitions are too narrow. Which would make you crazy. See the list of races he's done this year. Listen to his season or even just career aims.

Any comparisons with Cipo and his eventual persona non grata status at le tour are nonsense too. Cipo used to walk away from the Tour basically fresh because he couldn't (well wasn't willing to) ride up hills. By the time Cav left the Giro he was 2 hours down on GC, which tell us he went through some hurt to keep himself in the race through the mountains. That is respecting the race, not disrespecting it. Cipo wouldn't have even been around for Stage 11 of this year's Giro. Cav won it.

Finally, any suggestion that yesterday's stage was equivalent to some easy spinning training is nonsense. It will make a genuine difference to Cav's green jersey chances that he hasn't struggled through this week's mountains. So here is the only way in which he might be "disrespectful". His programme tells us that he values the wearing the green jersey up the avenue des champs elysee more highly than finishing the giro with no further achievement on top of what he did. But wouldn't we all?

I was going to reply to some of the frankly silly comments on here but then I saw this and realised I could not put it any better. What he said.

greasedscotsman

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Cipo wouldn't have even been around for Stage 11 of this year's Giro. Cav won it.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Cipo won the points competition 3 times, in 1992, 1997, 2002. So I think he might have been there.

Would have been interesting to see them against each other, maybe throw in Abdoujaparov in there too, but that's probably for a different thread...

avoidingmyphd

greasedscotsman wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Cipo wouldn't have even been around for Stage 11 of this year's Giro. Cav won it.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Cipo won the points competition 3 times, in 1992, 1997, 2002. So I think he might have been there.

you are right, got me fair and square.

(I think my point stands for later in cipo's career though, when the tour stopped liking him)

DaveyL

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /may09news

"The thing about it is that the Giro's 21 days," Cavendish said Friday morning. "I think it's a bit disrespectful to the race [Garmin staking so much on this]… Your race is going to start on the first day and end on the first day, and that's what Garmin is fundamentally doing. They've said their season starts tomorrow. Their sponsor's paid money for the first six months of the year [sic]…and I think that's highly [dis]respectful to those guys. It's May. Their season starts tomorrow, and I think it's going to end tomorrow night. I mean, come on..."

21 days for some people, eh?

I don't have a problem with him bailing early, but don't mouth off at other teams if that's what your plan is from the start. In my opinion neither Cav nor Garmin have been disrespectful to the race.

enjoy_the_ride

avoidingmyphd wrote:

...So here is the only way in which he might be "disrespectful". His programme tells us that he values the wearing the green jersey up the avenue des champs elysee more highly than finishing the giro with no further achievement on top of what he did. But wouldn't we all?

To answer your question, yes, we probably all would. And on a personal level it would likely be the right thing. But that doesn't really answer the question as to whether or not that shows respect for the Giro.

To me the question of whether that’s disrespectful or not has a lot to do with how the Italians (being the host nation) and the Giro organisers (it being their race) see it. If they are happy then fine.

Anyone know how this is being reported in Italy?

For sure they are not going to come out and say its fine to treat the Giro as preparation for the Tour, but I’d be curious to know what angle the Italian cycling press has taken.

By the way, Mark Renshaw also pulled out, as did Garmin’s Tyler Farrar one stage latter.

I do wonder what it does for the validity of the points competition as a whole. Cav had 79 points while Tyler had 73. That’s a lot of points taken from other sprinters who could well quote Cav’s own words back at him, ‘it’s race of 21 days’…

scottfrasernz

I guess in my OP I didn't make it clear - I didn't mean to criticise Cav necessarily, only to ask what others thought, as I found it rather ironic that he made those comments about Garmin when there was no intention for him to complete the race. So some might say that while he took the stage wins (which were brilliant victories of course) he didn't 'respect' the sprinters jersey. My Italian neighbours felt this way which is what made me ask the question to the forum as I find it interesting.

I do think it's a shame when the riders don't complete the event when they could, it's just my personal view but I think the stage victories are devalued to an extent. But also it devalues the sprinter's jersey competition as someone else pointed out.

It seems that in years gone by the sprinters and climbers jerseys were valued much more than they are today. Not sure if there is a remedy for that or even if there 'needs' to be?

The notion of disrespect I think also comes from the impression that the Tour de France is 'superior' to the Giro. Sure it's bigger commercially but some say the Giro is the connoisseur's choice. To be fair to the Italians the Giro organisers seem very motivated to improve the race and in my mind, they are succeeding so far. Different stage formats are part of it and so are the enticements for the big names to participate.

Sure the green jersey of the Tour de France is 'worth more' today than the Italian equivalent but this is not set in stone for ever more.

So the Italians felt a little bit snubbed perhaps. I guess having Cavendish at the Giro is worth a lot more than not having him.

And Petacchi got the better of him twice which made them very happy.

Petacchi better make it to Rome after all this ;-)