Steve Larsen
Comments
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They are already frequently tested for their cardiac health, and riders are prevented from racing if any anomaly is found.PeteinSQ wrote:Clearly they do need better cardiac screening.
These are the risk factors associated with sudden cardiac failure in men.
Smoking
Obesity
Diabetes
Inactivity
Previous myocardial infarction/history of coronary artery disease
Decreased left ventricular ejection fraction and heart failure
Previous sudden cardiac arrest or prior episode of ventricular tachycardia
Ventricular ectopy in chronic ischemic heart disease
Premature ventricular complexes during recovery trom treadmill exercise
Atrial fibrillalion
Electrophysiological parameters (eg. QTc, QRS duration, QT dispersion, heart rate variability, T wave altenans baroreflex sensitivity).
http://www.mediquest.ca/members/Sudden_ ... _10_05.pdf
Non of the above seem to be very applicable to professional cyclists.0 -
Wouldn't argue with that, Gewiss handed the baton to Motorola and, appropriately enough, Armstrong even teamed up with Ferrari, the same doctor who had managed the doping within the Gewiss team.DaveyL wrote:I'd say the Motorola boys were dragged into it by the Gewiss team (and other "early adopters"), if you're looking for someone to blame. Walsh has also said as much. If we're going by what Walsh says, that is.
So, yes, I would agree that Armstrong simply decided that, as he clearly was never going to win the Tour against a bunch of dopers without a properly managed doping program of his own (his best ride pre-cancer seeing him finish one and half hours behind Indurain), he had better play by the same 'rules'.
That said, after the shock that ran through the sport after the Festina affair, it really did seem as though many in the sport were willing to try to race without the sort of doping that had become the norm during the Indurain / Riis era. It is clear that what people like Kimmage really have against Armstrong is that he, more than any other individual rider, due to his ego, arrogance, ambition, desire for vengeance and so on, dragged the sport back into the situation it was in prior to the Festina scandal.
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=2433
Anyhow, let's try to keep the discussion focused more on sudden cardiac failure in pro cyclists, rather than - once again - Armstrong.
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Given there's absolutely no proof that Larsen died of sudden cardian failure, and the first autopsy suggests as much, again why are you so keen to bash this drum and associate Larsen with sudden cardiac failure and drug use?0
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It just seemed to me that yet another sudden death in a pro or ex-pro cyclist was an appropriate cue to discuss the issue of sudden death in pro and ex-pro cyclists, most of which seem to be associated with inexplicable cardiac failure. Not an altogether inappropriate thing to do given that his own family seem to have their suspicions, despite the conclusions of the original autopsy. Quote:stagehopper wrote:Given there's absolutely no proof that Larsen died of sudden cardian failure, and the first autopsy suggests as much, again why are you so keen to bash this drum and associate Larsen with sudden cardiac failure and drug use?
'...the family has asked for additional tests on his brother's heart.'
http://www.velonews.com/article/92268/a ... art-attack0 -
i am really tired of this Aurelio persons crusade on here, to the point of smearing someone whose corpse is hardly even cold yet just to score points0
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aurelio wrote:
They are already frequently tested for their cardiac health, and riders are prevented from racing if any anomaly is found.PeteinSQ wrote:Clearly they do need better cardiac screening.
These are the risk factors associated with sudden cardiac failure in men.
Smoking
Obesity
Diabetes
Inactivity
Previous myocardial infarction/history of coronary artery disease
Decreased left ventricular ejection fraction and heart failure
Previous sudden cardiac arrest or prior episode of ventricular tachycardia
Ventricular ectopy in chronic ischemic heart disease
Premature ventricular complexes during recovery trom treadmill exercise
Atrial fibrillalion
Electrophysiological parameters (eg. QTc, QRS duration, QT dispersion, heart rate variability, T wave altenans baroreflex sensitivity).
http://www.mediquest.ca/members/Sudden_ ... _10_05.pdf
Non of the above seem to be very applicable to professional cyclists.
No, but if you pasted both tables from the paper, a few other factors would come into play which DO apply to professional cyclists as much as anyone else.
- The list as originally published is not gender-specific as you've flagged above. There was one item on the full list which you've omitted from yours - Simply being male in the first instance is a risk factor - one which was common to all the dead riders listed in this thread.
- The paper also stated nine other "Potential New Risk Factors for Sudden Cardiac Death", including temperature, inflammation, genetics, heart rate turbulence etc. I'd imagine that professional cyclists can fall under these categories.
Other facts from the paper are that deaths from Sudden Cardiac Death are higher in Winter, week-ends and the first week of each month and "the incidence of sudden death due ventricular fibrillation (as well as MI and stroke) increases between 06:00 and 12:00"'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
I would say 'make a point'.Dave_1 wrote:i am really tired of this Aurelio person's crusade on here, to the point of smearing someone who's corpse is hardly even cold yet just to score points
Anyhow, I guess that means, in order to not encourage me any further in my 'crusade', you won't be adding anything further to this thread. Bye, it was nice to have you!
P.s This is what you said on the Rolf thread:
I guess you must think that it is all right for you to 'smear someone whose corpse is hardly even cold' with unproven insinuations. And I certainly haven't demanded that the cycling media hassle the dead mans family! :roll:Dave_1 wrote:I hope cycling media go to the rider's parents and seek answers...it is irresponsible not to enlighten us as to why something so highly abnormal happened...death by natural causes is allegedly on the death ceritificate...that's a sick joke.. ....a supremely fit athlete racing up to a 100 miles a day in the previous 5 days, age 21, dies in his sleep.....natural causes?... :? :?0 -
Like others I'm a bit tired of this debate, especially about Armstrong. But in aurelio's defence, doping was the first thing I thought of when I saw this article. That's not my fault, it's the fault of doping cyclists.
The fact that the man is dead, though very sad, does not mean that aurelio shouldn't raise the point that a lot of athletes seem to be dying young. Surely the point at which someone dies is exactly the point at which aurelio should bring this up.
In his view, he's being more considerate about this man's life than the people who just shake their heads, offer condolences and then turn the telly on to watch the Giro.
How many of the men we watched today will die prematurely?Scottish and British...and a bit French0 -
I see your point, in that those are general population figures. However, it also needs to be remembered that those population figures will include all those with a previous history of heart disease and so on. Take away all those individuals with a history of heart attacks and so on, and those individuals at risk due to obesity, smoking, lack of exercise and so on and the incidence will be much, much lower than is shown for the general population, and that is already low in itself.LangerDan wrote:if you pasted both tables from the paper, a few other factors would come into play which DO apply to professional cyclists as much as anyone else. The list as originally published is not gender-specific as you've flagged above. There was one item on the full list which you've omitted from yours - Simply being male in the first instance is a risk factor - one which was common to all the dead riders listed in this thread.
What we really need to do is to compare pro and ex-pro cyclists with a comparable group in terms of health, lifestyle, level of activity and so on, which is why I gave those figures for college athletes. These figures show that pro and ex-pro cyclists seem to have an incidence of sudden cardiac failure several magnitudes greater than one would expect.
So, are you really arguing that factors like 'temperature' play as significant a role as Smoking, Obesity, Diabetes, Inactivity etc., or would you accept that such factors may well only be of real significance when those other primary factors already exist?LangerDan wrote:The paper also stated nine other "Potential New Risk Factors for Sudden Cardiac Death", including temperature, inflammation, genetics, heart rate turbulence etc. I'd imagine that professional cyclists can fall under these categories.
Anyhow, even if those factors were significant, you would still need to explain why male pro cyclists, despite their constant cardiac health monitoring, appear to have a risk of sudden cardiac so much greater than, for example, the average college athlete.0 -
aurelio wrote:
So, are you really arguing that factors like 'temperature' play as significant a role as Smoking, Obesity, Diabetes, Inactivity etc., or would you accept that such factors may well only be of real significance when those other primary factors already exist?LangerDan wrote:The paper also stated nine other "Potential New Risk Factors for Sudden Cardiac Death", including temperature, inflammation, genetics, heart rate turbulence etc. I'd imagine that professional cyclists can fall under these categories.
I'm not arguing anything. Neither of us are cardiologists . However if a Professor Emeritus of Medicine sees fit to include "Temperature" on a list of risk factors, then it would seem to be significant, He didn't see fit to qualify the "potential new factors" as being secondary or of lesser significance than the traditonal standard factorsaurelio wrote:Anyhow, even if those factors were significant, you would still need to explain why male pro cyclists, despite their constant cardiac health monitoring, appear to have a risk of sudden cardiac so much greater than, for example, the average college athlete.
Do you have a link to the study?. In America, "athlete" has a far broader application than here - it can mean golfers as much as American footballers. (I think yachtsman Denis Conner was voted Athlete of the Year in the 1980s and he reputedly couldn't even see his toes). It really needs a study against other sports which have a similar cardiac profile - high rates, long durations. The only problem is that some of the candidates would include sports like cross-country skiing or biathlon - neither of which would appear to be a suitable "clean" datum for the study.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
More on that study.
Methods.
We utilized a circumstance unique to Minnesota in which the precise number of participants and deaths due to cardiovascular disease could be ascertained over a substantial period of time based on a long-standing insurance program for catastrophic injury or death, mandatory for all student athletes engaged in interscholastic sports.
Results. Over the 12-year period, 1985/1986 to 1996/1997, inclusive, three sudden deaths due to cardiovascular disease occurred in competitive high school athletes (grades 10–12) during competition or practice. At autopsy, 1 each proved to be due to anomalous origin of the left main coronary artery from the right sinus of Valsalva, congenital aortic valve stenosis (with bicuspid valve) and myocarditis. All three athletes were white and male, 16 or 17 years of age; two competed in cross-country/track and one in basketball.
During the study period there were 1,453,280 overall sports participations and 651,695 student athlete participants among the 27 high school sports. The calculated risk for sudden death was 1:500,000 participations and 1:217,400 participants per academic year (or 0.46/100,000, annually). Over a 3-year high school career for a student athlete the estimated risk was 1:72,500.
http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/conte ... /32/7/18810 -
So you're taking data from high school kids and projecting onto a guy who's been an elite endurance athlete (with concomitant strain on the body) for 20-odd years?Le Blaireau (1)0
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aurelio wrote:
That said, after the shock that ran through the sport after the Festina affair, it really did seem as though many in the sport were willing to try to race without the sort of doping that had become the norm during the Indurain / Riis era. It is clear that what people like Kimmage really have against Armstrong is that he, more than any other individual rider, due to his ego, arrogance, ambition, desire for vengeance and so on, dragged the sport back into the situation it was in prior to the Festina scandal.
Rubbish.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
I had thought that the main topic of the conversation was the, or so it appears, comparatively high incidence of sudden cardiac deaths in pro cyclists in general, often involving cyclists only a few years older than those in the study. :roll:DaveyL wrote:So you're taking data from high school kids and projecting onto a guy who's been an elite endurance athlete (with concomitant strain on the body) for 20-odd years?0 -
aurelio wrote:
I would say 'make a point'.Dave_1 wrote:i am really tired of this Aurelio person's crusade on here, to the point of smearing someone who's corpse is hardly even cold yet just to score points
Anyhow, I guess that means, in order to not encourage me any further in my 'crusade', you won't be adding anything further to this thread. Bye, it was nice to have you!
P.s This is what you said on the Rolf thread:
I guess you must think that it is all right for you to 'smear someone whose corpse is hardly even cold' with unproven insinuations. And I certainly haven't demanded that the cycling media hassle the dead mans family! :roll:Dave_1 wrote:I hope cycling media go to the rider's parents and seek answers...it is irresponsible not to enlighten us as to why something so highly abnormal happened...death by natural causes is allegedly on the death ceritificate...that's a sick joke.. ....a supremely fit athlete racing up to a 100 miles a day in the previous 5 days, age 21, dies in his sleep.....natural causes?... :? :?
that is cause they did not wish establish a cause of death by post mortem,,,which I found hard to accept. However, Larsen's family will establish that. you obsessive...go take your pills0 -
Great contribution there. Keep 'em coming.Dave_1 wrote:
that is cause they did not wish establish a cause of death by post mortem,,,which I found hard to accept. However, Larsen's family will establish that. you obsessive...go take your pillsDave_1 wrote:I hope cycling media go to the rider's parents and seek answers...it is irresponsible not to enlighten us as to why something so highly abnormal happened...death by natural causes is allegedly on the death ceritificate...that's a sick joke.. ....a supremely fit athlete racing up to a 100 miles a day in the previous 5 days, age 21, dies in his sleep.....natural causes?... :? :?
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aurelio wrote:
I had thought that the main topic of the conversation was the, or so it appears, comparatively high incidence of sudden cardiac deaths in pro cyclists in general, often involving cyclists only a few years older than those in the study. :roll:DaveyL wrote:So you're taking data from high school kids and projecting onto a guy who's been an elite endurance athlete (with concomitant strain on the body) for 20-odd years?
I thought the main topic of conversation was the untimely death of a 39 year old endurance athlete. You're the one who seems determined to link it to a bunch of kids. And you-know-who :roll:Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Maybe you are right and Festina changed absolutely nothing. However, one thing is for certain, the doping problem in cycling will remain as long as riders of the stature of Armstrong insist on enforcing the doping omerta rather than trying to take a public stand against the problem, including being willing to 'name names', and just as importantly making a personal stand by actually racing clean.DaveyL wrote:Rubbish.0 -
Well, it certainly seems as though that is what you want to talk about. Doesn't it? :roll:DaveyL wrote:I thought the main topic of conversation was the untimely death of a 39 year old endurance athlete. You're the one who seems determined to link it to a bunch of kids. And you-know-who :roll:0 -
aurelio wrote:
Great contribution there. Keep 'em coming.Dave_1 wrote:
that is cause they did not wish establish a cause of death by post mortem,,,which I found hard to accept. However, Larsen's family will establish that. you obsessive...go take your pillsDave_1 wrote:I hope cycling media go to the rider's parents and seek answers...it is irresponsible not to enlighten us as to why something so highly abnormal happened...death by natural causes is allegedly on the death ceritificate...that's a sick joke.. ....a supremely fit athlete racing up to a 100 miles a day in the previous 5 days, age 21, dies in his sleep.....natural causes?... :? :?
answer my point...I did not agree with no autopsy as it left open the vague possibility something he used or did caused his death and no autopsy means nobody knows....it's got nothing in common with Larsen who we will no doubt be shown not to have died as a result of doping...so why bring up such an irrelevant posting? You are trying to say doping caused Larsen's death when an autopsy is being done so no need to speculate as you are..unlike the case in Qutar...you digging through all my other postings are you?...you obsessive, you need help , not bike forums0 -
You were making a point?! :shock:Dave_1 wrote:answer my point...I did not agree with no autopsy as it left open the vague possibility something he used or did caused his death and no autopsy means nobody knows....it's got nothing in common with Larsen who we will no doubt be shown not to have died as a result of doping...so why bring up such an irrelevant posting? You are trying to say doping caused Larsen's death when an autopsy is being done so no need to speculate as you are..unlike the case in Qutar...you digging through all my other postings are you?...you obsessive, you need help , not bike forums
What was it? That if you feel that a rider's death was associated with doping, it's fine for you to make 'unproven insinuations' and to even demand that the press go and doorstep the family of the dead rider?0 -
aurelio wrote:
Well, it certainly seems as though that is what you want to talk about. Doesn't it? :roll:DaveyL wrote:I thought the main topic of conversation was the untimely death of a 39 year old endurance athlete. You're the one who seems determined to link it to a bunch of kids. And you-know-who :roll:
Judging by the title of the thread, uh huh. :roll:
Hey, this eye rolling thing is really clever, isn't it?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
The problem might be bigger than even I thought...
Two years ago, author Jean-Francois Quinet published "The Secrets of the Festina Affair," which detailed drug use among riders in recent Tours. Quinet said he found that "close to 100 percent" of the riders were using banned substances.
Further, Quinet said, team doctors have become more savvy than the UCI in dealing with illegal substances.
"The drugs they are currently giving to their cyclists might not even be ones for which a test has been developed," Quinet said. "Their M.O. is to stay a few steps ahead of the testing."
One way some riders have attempted to stay ahead is using EPO, an endurance-boosting hormone that is produced naturally in the kidneys and is undetectable by current tests. But its use brings serious risks.
Quinet said he was able to document 80 riders in the 1980s and 1990s who died because of EPO-related heart problems.
"The real damage was done at night," Quinet said. "When the riders went to sleep, their pulses slowed down but their hearts fought to keep the circulation flowing. That left them as prime candidates for heart attacks and strokes."
Most EPO-related deaths, Quinet said, took place in Belgium and Holland in the early 1990s, when riders dabbled in the drug without supervision from a team physician. Most recently, the deaths of several Dutch cylo-cross riders were blamed on their misuse of EPO.
http://www.press-enterprise.com/newsarc ... 24010.html0 -
aurelio wrote:
You were making a point?! :shock:Dave_1 wrote:answer my point...I did not agree with no autopsy as it left open the vague possibility something he used or did caused his death and no autopsy means nobody knows....it's got nothing in common with Larsen who we will no doubt be shown not to have died as a result of doping...so why bring up such an irrelevant posting? You are trying to say doping caused Larsen's death when an autopsy is being done so no need to speculate as you are..unlike the case in Qutar...you digging through all my other postings are you?...you obsessive, you need help , not bike forums
What was it? That if you feel that a rider's death was associated with doping, it's fine for you to make 'unproven insinuations' and to even demand that the press go and doorstep the family of the dead rider?
no autopsy leaves open serious concerns about causes....if anything that's the case you should have posted on ...not Steve Larsen where cause of death will be established likely...totally different cases and again a pathetic attempt by you to avoid the issue. The Quatar death could have been doping-we'll never know...that was my point and you know that very well...anyway, you run along, get your medicine...0 -
OK, returning to the specific cases of Mike Larsen, it remain the case that he apparently died from some sort of sudden heart failure. So why the apparently conflicting reports?DaveyL wrote:I thought the main topic of conversation was the untimely death of a 39 year old endurance athlete.
Many of the main cycling and general news sites state that he died of a 'heart attack'. The report on bikerader certainly does. See http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/s ... 2009-21703
Against that his brother has said that the autopsy 'ruled out a heart attack and a blood clot'.
On the other hand the following report states that the medical examiner actually concluded that Larsen died of 'sudden cardiac arrest'. See
http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.d ... ory=NEWS01
Perhaps this apparent confusion is due to different people making different interpretations of what constitutes a 'heart attack'. His heart certainly stopped beating for some reason. Generally a 'heart attack' is the term used to describe what happens when the coronary artery becomes blocked, usually due to a clot. Following on from what Larsen's brother said, this does not appear to have happened in Larsen's case. However, ventricular fibrillation can be caused by things other than a blocked coronary artery, so it seems you can die of 'sudden cardiac arrest' without having a classic blocked coronary artery 'heart attack'.
Accepting that Larsen died of ventricular fibrillation or 'sudden cardiac arrest', but showed no signs of having a blocked coronary artery due to a clot, then it makes sense that his family should have asked for more tests to be done on his heart.
If anything the lack of an obvious cause such as a blocked artery causes greater concern than if an obvious cause had been found. It seems that when pro and ex-pro cyclists die of sudden cardiac arrest usually no obvious cause is found. In fact it would be very surprising if a pro cyclist was racing with the sort of heart disease and furred-up arteries associated with the sort of clot formation leading to a classical 'heart attack'.
Again, in that study looking at the extremely low incidence of death through sudden heart failure in American college athletes, all three deaths reported were due to the same identifiable cause, stemming from a congenital defect of the heart.
If autopsies on pro and ex-pro cyclists fail to find evidence of either a blocked coronary artery or congenital abnormality, then what are these deaths due? Apparently in 80 documented cases the cause has been Epo-induced 'thick blood', and even if an athlete is not currently using such products, (and Larsen was still in competition) no one really knows what the long term side effects of doping are. Perhaps those further tests will find some other perfectly natural cause, but if his death is put down to a 'virus or allergy' I would really like to hear the mechanism by which they caused sudden cardiac arrest.0 -
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=142
An interview with Steve Larsen from 2008. He'd just finished 5th in Ironman Couer d'Alene, qualifying for Ironman Hawaii where he would go on to finish in 9:19:25.
Most of the interview is about triathlon, but he does get asked about watching the Tour, and says he has become "jaded" with it in recent years, and that he's more interested in how Taylor Phinney gets on at the Olympics.
Very poignant to hear him talk about his desire to be coming back to Kona in his 70s and challenging for the age-group.Le Blaireau (1)0
