Commuter wanting to watch road racing

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  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:
    Yes but the performance boost you get from drugs in cycling makes all the difference. If you give a footballer drugs it ain't really gonna help him dribble like ronaldo is it? Score more goals? Make better saves? The performance advantage in football, rugby or tennis are not that great, maybe better stamina or acceleration but it's not going to make the crucial difference in terms of scoring goals / trys / points etc.

    What's every managers no2 favoure rant after how inconsistent referees are? It's that their players have to play far too many games.
    Would an endurabce-based drugs program help fatigued players play more games at a higher physical effort at the back end of a season? You bet it would.
    Would more of your first team paying more games at higher levels of physical activity help a team record better results? I'd say it would.
    Are there banned drugs that can be used to speed up recovery from injury and allow an athelte who has been out of training for a few weeks with an injury to get back to match fitness in a much shorter timescale allowing them to return to action sooner? Oh yeah.
    Is there much of a challenge for a competent doctor to run a team-wide doping programe for a football club and not get caught by the rudimentary testing protocols? Not really.
    Did Rugby football recently decide to stop testing for EPO, a drug that would be of great use to a rugby player, instead of adopting the more stringent methods needed to detect it's use? Yep.

    I'd be shocked if the top professional football leagues are not rife with drug use. Maybe more so in Spain, but the others too. There are those who would like cycling to appear clean by not actually catching the cheats too.
  • shoulder_of_orion
    shoulder_of_orion Posts: 529
    cjcp wrote:
    That's a good point. I say that, not because I don't know a thing about drugs, but because I read an article recently about how certain drugs only help at altitude e.g. viagra.

    erm, not sure what you're getting at here??? Viagra does most certainly "help" at sea level. Allegedly.
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Or that Adrian Mutu was banned and had his contract ripped up by Chelsea for drug abuse (and that was performance enhancing) ....

    Cocaine most certainly is NOT a performance enhancing drug. Not unless you are entering the sh!t talking, lying, sleazy, scumbag world championships.

    The point I was making about drugs in cycling is simply that it can make the difference between winning and losing the TDF e.g. Rasmussen, Riise, Landis etc.

    It's not about it being an endurance sport and I agree that cheats should be outed. It's just that e.g. in the Landis case, he would not have won that stage without drugs and therefore the TDF - it's just the performance advantage between winning and losing is not as clearcut in most other sports, especially team sports such as football.

    Though there are obvious exceptions such as Ben Johnson in 1988 or Billy Bonds in baseball. Those are not endurance sports (it was steroids). There is a real plethora of performance enhancing drugs available now helping all aspects of performance and agree that it is probably rife in other sports. I just feel that in individual races such as cycling, swimming and running the difference is that much more obvious.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:
    Cocaine most certainly is NOT a performance enhancing drug.
    Typo, I've since editted 'was' to 'wasn't'.
    The point I was making about drugs in cycling is simply that it can make the difference between winning and losing the TDF e.g. Rasmussen, Riise, Landis etc.

    It's not about it being an endurance sport and I agree that cheats should be outed. It's just that e.g. in the Landis case, he would not have won that stage without drugs and therefore the TDF - it's just the performance advantage between winning and losing is not as clearcut in most other sports, especially team sports such as football.

    I disagree.
    Though there are obvious exceptions such as Ben Johnson in 1988 or Billy Bonds in baseball. Those are not endurance sports (it was steroids). There is a real plethora of performance enhancing drugs available now helping all aspects of performance and agree that it is probably rife in other sports. I just feel that in individual races such as cycling, swimming and running the difference is that much more obvious.

    I disagree. EPO could increase a footballers workrate (for example) and that performance could be the difference between a team winning or losing regardless of the position they play.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    I've had a thought...

    I think men just like talking about sport, and have competitions to see who knows the most about sport, with the winner taking 'alpha male' status in the group.

    That's why you all watch so much sport - to build up knowledge bases and have pub discussions with other men. Not 'cause you actually enjoy it. Yeah.
    FCN 7/1
    Viner Maxima, Tifosi CK7, Giant Bowery, Old commuter.
  • shoulder_of_orion
    shoulder_of_orion Posts: 529
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    I disagree. EPO could increase a footballers workrate (for example) and that performance could be the difference between a team winning or losing regardless of the position they play.

    Fair enough.

    But winning the TDF is the pinnacle of cycling and drugs most definitely have proved to be the difference on more than one occassion, e.g. Landis.

    You say in football it "could" make the difference but we do not know of a case in the world cup final where a player on the winning side has tested postitive and who's performance was the difference between winning and losing.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    I've had a thought...

    I think men just like talking about sport, and have competitions to see who knows the most about sport, with the winner taking 'alpha male' status in the group.

    That's why you all watch so much sport - to build up knowledge bases and have pub discussions with other men. Not 'cause you actually enjoy it. Yeah.

    No, it is so we can pratronise ignorant but endearing lady folk.
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    I've had a thought...

    I think men just like talking about sport, and have competitions to see who knows the most about sport, with the winner taking 'alpha male' status in the group.

    That's why you all watch so much sport - to build up knowledge bases and have pub discussions with other men. Not 'cause you actually enjoy it. Yeah.
    We're, like, so busted.
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    That's a good point. I say that, not because I don't know a thing about drugs, but because I read an article recently about how certain drugs only help at altitude e.g. viagra.

    erm, not sure what you're getting at here??? Viagra does most certainly "help" at sea level. Allegedly.


    :lol::lol:

    It was C+ in the last few months. Will have to dig it out. It was something about oxygen-deprivation at altitude being greater than at sea level and Viagra helped get the O2 to the muscles faster, so it wasn't beneficial *for that particular purpose* :P . A rider had a stash in his dad's car last year, I think. Apparently, Viagra was produced or designed for one purpose, but it was subsequently discovered that its properties had other effects. Apparently. :wink:
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Sewinman wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    I've had a thought...

    I think men just like talking about sport, and have competitions to see who knows the most about sport, with the winner taking 'alpha male' status in the group.

    That's why you all watch so much sport - to build up knowledge bases and have pub discussions with other men. Not 'cause you actually enjoy it. Yeah.

    No, it is so we can pratronise ignorant but endearing lady folk.

    Gosh I hope that's deliberate... :lol:
    FCN 7/1
    Viner Maxima, Tifosi CK7, Giant Bowery, Old commuter.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Shoulder wrote:
    But winning the TDF is the pinnacle of cycling and drugs most definitely have proved to be the difference on more than one occassion, e.g. Landis.

    You say in football it "could" make the difference but we do not know of a case in the world cup final where a player on the winning side has tested postitive and who's performance was the difference between winning and losing.[/quote]

    What your saying works on the basis that performance enhancing drugs create winners. Just because the guy who won the Tour de France took drugs doesn't mean the guy who came last didn't take more drugs than him. What you're saying also assumes that there is more correlation between winning and taking drugs in individual sports than in team sports. That's how team sports get away with it more so than individual sports. Could it also be that you only think that because you are more aware of drug taking in individual sports?

    In the end Sport is about performance regardless of being in a team or not.

    Performance enhancing drugs increase performance. Just because a guy plays with a team doesn't mean he hasn't taken EPO - in excess of lets say a cyclist - to increase his performance to match the performance of the rest of his team.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    I've had a thought...

    I think men just like talking about sport, and have competitions to see who knows the most about sport, with the winner taking 'alpha male' status in the group.

    That's why you all watch so much sport - to build up knowledge bases and have pub discussions with other men. Not 'cause you actually enjoy it. Yeah.

    No, it is so we can pratronise ignorant but endearing lady folk.

    Gosh I hope that's deliberate... :lol:

    Ahhhh, that is always what happens when I try to be a bit clever with a lady. I had 3 courses and 5 wines at lunch, so am not entirely in control of my fingers. :oops: :roll:
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Cycling gets a bad press because the sport acknowledges the drugs issue and actually makes some attempt to tackle it. People who suggest sports like football and tennis don't benefit from drug abuse are in cloud cuckoo land. In both of those sports, the skill element has been massively subsumed by improbable levels of fitness in recent years. Look at the stats for how far a premier league player runs in a stop start 90 minute game - can be well over 10km. That requires serious endurance and the use of drugs could clearly assist with that. Look at Greece winning the Euros, a group of unheralded players basically running their opponents into the ground. Slightly suspect, especially as it was the same time as their sprinters were getting kicked out of the Olympics, but nobody bats an eyelid in football land. Chelsea and many Italian teams admit to using blood transfusion methods that are illegal in cycling. Rio was clearly guilty as hell (nobody is that thick) and what about the other sportsmen on the Puerto list? Same goes for tennis, and anybody Spanish looks particularly suspect from where I'm standing. There's been a massive cover up over there.

    And finally, unless I'm mistaken cocaine is a stimulant so could clearly give a performance advantage. Its so easily detectable though that nobody would be stupid enough to use it that way, so I accept that the likes of Mutu and Boonen were probably partying not cheating, still needs to be banned though.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • shoulder_of_orion
    shoulder_of_orion Posts: 529
    Well this one could run and run couldn't it? I think I am going to leave it now. Wouldn't want to bore the female readers of this site to death now would I?

    But, back to the OP. Will any of this make you more or less likely to watch cycling on TV??
  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:
    You say in football it "could" make the difference but we do not know of a case in the world cup final where a player on the winning side has tested postitive and who's performance was the difference between winning and losing.

    And that is the whole point. Football's testing for drugs is so useless, and modern drug provision so advanced, that even if the whole winning team was on all sorts of stuff they would have to seriously mess up before the testers would catch them. This isn't the 1980's.

    So they don't get caught becuase they can't be caught and everyone pretends the sport is "clean" until WADA come along and actually threaten to introduce the sort of testing regime that might actually catch people now and then (as it does in cycling and skiing where it's currently used) and lo and behold, the sport opposes it massively. Funny that.

    Cycling's drug problem isn't that cyclists take drugs, it's that cycling tries to catch them.
    I'm all in favour of catching them.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,395
    @DDD


    Came across this site

    You might be interested


    http://www.videopeloton.com/default.aspx
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:

    But, back to the OP. Will any of this make you more or less likely to watch cycling on TV??

    More likely, hell after reading all these posts I road like the clappers home!
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:

    But, back to the OP. Will any of this make you more or less likely to watch cycling on TV??

    More likely, hell after reading all these posts I road like the clappers home!
    t'interweb, the drug of the nation ;)
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    The joy of watching cycling via repeats on the net is of course that it's almost all either in Italian (RAI) or Flemish (Sporza). What's stranger is that, despite not speaking a word of each how much you seem to understand, especially the flemish which at times sounds also sounds like some comedy show taking the piss :)
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    DDD, the first of those city centre races is on ITV4 at 7pm on friday:
    http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/si ... Series.asp
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Eau Rouge wrote:
    Flemish (Sporza). What's stranger is that, despite not speaking a word of each how much you seem to understand, especially the flemish which at times sounds also sounds like some comedy show taking the wee-wee :)

    Flemish is the maddest of the known languages when heard in the context of commentary.

    "Spekendriees-ooood-de-berg-de-van-gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal-de-Boonen-de...<cue hysterical laughter between two mad Flandrians>"

    EDIT: check out the cyclo-cross commentary on YouTube. Bonkers.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Mattinthezie
    Mattinthezie Posts: 52
    I think it was the sporza highlights that I watched of Milan San Remo and the commentary as the sprint happened was hilarious, plus they seemed to have a guy on one of the motos during the spring classics and every time they cut to him he was on a cobbled bit so his voice was wobbling about all over the place...I'm almost glad I couldn't understand a word of it!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1OngdmB2iw 2'13" in.

    Btw if you can get away with having a live feed on the computer at work, then there are various live feeds at cyclingfans.com, including the English Eurosport one.
  • Mike Healey
    Mike Healey Posts: 1,023
    The source of a major tour winner's strength is spiritual:

    He has to climb like an angel, time trial like a demon and descend like the wrath of God
    Organising the Bradford Kids Saturday Bike Club at the Richard Dunn Sports Centre since 1998
    http://www.facebook.com/groups/eastbradfordcyclingclub/
    http://www.facebook.com/groups/eastbradfordcyclingclub/
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    Eau Rouge wrote:
    Shoulder of Orion wrote:
    You say in football it "could" make the difference but we do not know of a case in the world cup final where a player on the winning side has tested postitive and who's performance was the difference between winning and losing.

    And that is the whole point. Football's testing for drugs is so useless, and modern drug provision so advanced, that even if the whole winning team was on all sorts of stuff they would have to seriously mess up before the testers would catch them. This isn't the 1980's.

    So they don't get caught becuase they can't be caught and everyone pretends the sport is "clean" until WADA come along and actually threaten to introduce the sort of testing regime that might actually catch people now and then (as it does in cycling and skiing where it's currently used) and lo and behold, the sport opposes it massively. Funny that.

    Cycling's drug problem isn't that cyclists take drugs, it's that cycling tries to catch them.
    I'm all in favour of catching them.

    Another piece of circumstantial evidence for widespread doping in football is the increasing numbers of players suffering (often fatal) heart attacks. Again brushed under the carpet by the media and the authorities.
    <a>road</a>
  • roger_merriman
    roger_merriman Posts: 6,165
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    I've had a thought...

    I think men just like talking about sport, and have competitions to see who knows the most about sport, with the winner taking 'alpha male' status in the group.

    That's why you all watch so much sport - to build up knowledge bases and have pub discussions with other men. Not 'cause you actually enjoy it. Yeah.

    heh! my wife brags in her work as i'm almost 100% sport free at least in the watching side, only thing i do like to watch is the 6 nations and my wife cares more than I, and aparently large men are nice to watch so i've been told....
  • CiB
    CiB Posts: 6,098
    JonGinge wrote:
    DDD, the first of those city centre races is on ITV4 at 7pm on friday:
    http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/si ... Series.asp

    Watch this if you can, tonight at 7pm . I went to it last night and watched the whole event, and it was just fantastic. The format was a short course in the centre of MK (CBX, Marks & Sparks, Christ The Cornerstone Church for anyone who knows the place), so prob around a ¾ mile lap, one hour + 5 laps racing with 4 bonus sprints through the hour, team sprint so best 3 riders times per team take the honours [I think - PA was a bit boomy and had wife + kids to distract me too].

    The spectacle of a big bunch sprint up close is phenomenal - I had to pull elder son back from leaning over the barrier a bit too far a couple of times as he was likely to have his head knocked off through trying to get his fizzog on tv, rather than watching the bikes coming from the other direction. It was a superb sight, some serious racing, a couple of spills, a broken chain, and the turbulence as they fly past gets you. All this within a short loop that offered good viewing and the chance to walk around a watch from different vantage points. If it comes to a town near you, get on down and be part of it, Absolutely phenomenal.
  • Roastie
    Roastie Posts: 1,968
    JonGinge wrote:
    I'll be watching some racing at the Smithfield Nocturne. Good fun
    Yeah, great event - great atmosphere.

    Only two weeks off now - I can't wait, mostly 'cos this year I'll be on the other side of the barriers. :)
    David
    Engineered Bicycles

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