Are rules always Black and White? Is RLJing always wrong?

DonDaddyD

Rockbuddy wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Question

It's 11pm or later (small hours in the morning). Absolutely nothing on the road or pavement save one pedestrian who has pressed the lights but manage to cross anyway becuase of the lack of traffic.

You are approaching the lights and they are about to turn red. Its cold, you are tired, its late. Do you RLJ or wait at the lights?

If they are about to turn red are they on amber??? In that case I would probably not stop and take my chance. Having said that it's 11pm I'm tired and maybe not concentrating as well as I could be...maybe haven't seen the ninja ped running to cross on the green man and I don't have time to stop... Basically it's up to you do the right thing or don't, you have to live with the consequences. I remember vividly a ped shouting after me last November as I sped past them at a zebra crossing. It was dark I was lit up and he was a ninja, I honestly didn't see him but luckly I missed hitting him.

Do they not have street lights in Cardiff?

Roastiecp wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

QuestionYou are approaching the lights and they are about to turn red. Its cold, you are tired, its late. Do you RLJ or wait at the lights?

I'm walking home late at night wearing dark coloured clothes. I'm tired and it is cold. I get to the ped crossing and fortunately someone has just got to it moments before so I can just scoot through. I hear nothing behind me so I step right onto the crossing without first looking for traffic (the ped light is green, after all). The light is about to change, so quicken my step to hurry across. Next thing I'm on the deck hit by some twit on a bike who jumped the red.

I really don't care that he was tired, and consequently not quite as observant as he should have been, or that I had stepped out of the shadows into his path - the light was b1oody well red and he should have stopped! B1oody cyclists.

Do they not have street lights in Battersea?

@Rock and Roast. Are you honestly telling me that at night you still won't RLJ? Even if you slow to approach the lights - crawling to a halt - there is no one crossing (the person who pressed the lights has since crossed) and you know these lights they will stay red for a while, even under those circumstances you won't RLJ?

peachos

MrChuck wrote:

peachos wrote:

personally i think being a good overall cyclist and jumping through reds (when i will cause no harm or interference with another road user) .

Change 'cyclist' for 'driver' and is this still OK with you? If not, why not?

cars and bikes are slightly differnt vehicles though arent they. if i can get off my bike and push across the road and be within the law then what difference does it really make if i cycles, cautiously across?

peachos

ellieb wrote:

i just cant see any substance in the argument that RLJing is the main reason that motorists think 'cyclists are a bunch of lycra louts with no regard for the rules of the road'.

Er.. What sort of evidence would you be likely to accept that this is what most car drivers think of cyclists.

Internet posts?
Letters to the paper?
Opinons vouced on phone ins?
Results of opinion polls?
Conversations with people?

You name it: The evidence is there. Tell me what more you would need?

i'm not denying that motorists think badly of cyclists, just that RLJing is probably not the major cause of this mindset. but if you have evidence to prove otherwise please share and i'll happily change mine.

bigmat

The trouble is, there are some absolute idiots on the roads, particularly in London. To assume that their driving habits / opinions of cyclists can be influenced by our behaviour is in my view a bit optimistic. A lot of drivers will drive aggressively, dangerously close, left hook us, beep at us, shout at us, open doors into us, drive into us no matter what we do. Faced with that, my instinct is to do what is best for me, as long as it is safe for me and for other users of the road. I'm confident I can make that judgment.

Roastie

DonDaddyD wrote:

Do they not have street lights in Battersea?

We have some trees that can obscure street lighting. Sometimes street lights fail... I also occasionally take adventures out of my post code (although I do avoid this - the big wide world is SCARY).

@Rock and Roast. Are you honestly telling me that at night you still won't RLJ? Even if you slow to approach the lights - crawling to a halt - there is no one crossing (the person who pressed the lights has since crossed) and you know these lights they will stay red for a while, even under those circumstances you won't RLJ?

And miss an opportunity to perfect my track-stands?

Stuey01

peachos wrote:

maybe it's just me then eh?

but i still dont see myself as being a problem on the roads. as far as i'm concerned i am a courteous user who under certain circumstances prefer to use my own judgement rather than that of a road system that was not designed for my method of transport.

the belief held by many drivers that all cyclists are arrogant renegades who believe themselves to be above the law.

In your specific case it looks like they would be right.

gtvlusso

I am a driver too (very occasionally)....I feel hurt :-(

MrChuck

peachos wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

peachos wrote:

personally i think being a good overall cyclist and jumping through reds (when i will cause no harm or interference with another road user) .

Change 'cyclist' for 'driver' and is this still OK with you? If not, why not?

cars and bikes are slightly differnt vehicles though arent they. if i can get off my bike and push across the road and be within the law then what difference does it really make if i cycles, cautiously across?

They are, but so what? What difference does it make if a car nips across cautiously? Or a motorbike- they're different from cars too, aren't they?

The 'cars and bikes are different' argument probably comes up all the time on car-based forums, but turned around to justify the very behaviour we all complain about on here. We expect everyone else on the road to follow the rules, rather than interpret them using their flawless judgement, skills and common sense, so if we expect to get the consideration we want doesn't it follow that we should do the same?

peachos

Stuey01 wrote:

peachos wrote:

maybe it's just me then eh?

but i still dont see myself as being a problem on the roads. as far as i'm concerned i am a courteous user who under certain circumstances prefer to use my own judgement rather than that of a road system that was not designed for my method of transport.

the belief held by many drivers that all cyclists are arrogant renegades who believe themselves to be above the law.

In your specific case it looks like they would be right.

good one, but you missed one:

maybe it's just me then eh?

_Brun_

Rockbuddy wrote:

You can't always see what is coming no matter how considered you are in your manner, it brings to mind the SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You) excuse given by so many drivers. I don't see very much difference between reckless and considered RLJing you are still a potential danger to yourself and more importantly others on the road.

SMIDSY is, like you say, an excuse. There's a massive difference between not being able to see something and not being arsed to look properly.

It is emphatically not difficult to be perfectly confident that a road is clear for the time it would take to cross it. If it was so dangerous, the attrition rate amongst pedestrians would be rather a lot higher than it is.

Stuey01

29% of people who responded to our poll say that jumping red lights is the most dangerous thing cyclists do. Which is worrying, since 64% of cyclists admit that they do it at least occasionally. 35% are adamant that they never do it. A worrying 11 people said that they ‘always’ jump red lights – presumably ploughing headlong into a stream of traffic. Of the red light jumpers, 36% check for police first, while 19% are never on the look-out for the fuzz.

http://www.timeout.com/london/big-smoke/features/1698/Survey_results-the_truth_about_bikes_in_London.html

From the Timeout cycling in london poll 2006.

Rockbuddy

_Brun_ wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

You can't always see what is coming no matter how considered you are in your manner, it brings to mind the SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You) excuse given by so many drivers. I don't see very much difference between reckless and considered RLJing you are still a potential danger to yourself and more importantly others on the road.

SMIDSY is, like you say, an excuse. There's a massive difference between not being able to see something and not being arsed to look properly.

It is emphatically not difficult to be perfectly confident that a road is clear for the time it would take to cross it. If it was so dangerous, the attrition rate amongst pedestrians would be rather a lot higher than it is.

SMIDSY is what the car driver that you didn't see will say if he hits you. Do what ever you want I'm just saying red is red you make your choices and you live with them...

_Brun_

Rockbuddy wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

You can't always see what is coming no matter how considered you are in your manner, it brings to mind the SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You) excuse given by so many drivers. I don't see very much difference between reckless and considered RLJing you are still a potential danger to yourself and more importantly others on the road.

SMIDSY is, like you say, an excuse. There's a massive difference between not being able to see something and not being arsed to look properly.

It is emphatically not difficult to be perfectly confident that a road is clear for the time it would take to cross it. If it was so dangerous, the attrition rate amongst pedestrians would be rather a lot higher than it is.

SMIDSY is what the car driver that you didn't see will say if he hits you. Do what ever you want I'm just saying red is red you make your choices and you live with them...

Is this the car driver that suddenly appears from absolutely nowhere? I hate it when that happens! Particularly when they don't seem to hit the woman with a push chair crossing the road a few metres away from me. :roll:

Honestly, if you're that unsure what's going on around you I don't know how you have the confidence to leave the house in a morning, let alone get on a bike.

Christophe3967

MatHammond wrote:

The trouble is, there are some absolute idiots on the roads, particularly in London.

Of course there are idiots on the road, but not particularly in London. Pop along to Bristol or Birmingham or anywhere else for that matter and you'll find a bloke sitting up your bumper, driving aggressively etc. But he's likely to have a bad haircut as well.

MatHammond wrote:

A lot of drivers will drive aggressively, dangerously close, left hook us, beep at us, shout at us, open doors into us, drive into us no matter what we do. Faced with that, my instinct is to do what is best for me, as long as it is safe for me and for other users of the road. I'm confident I can make that judgment.

I simply don't have this experience cycling in London - yes there are these incidents but they're relativley rare. You can't just wring your hands and admit defeat - attitudes do get changed over time and we should accpet full responsibility for our actions.

If we want to be treated as proper road users, we need to behave accordingly.

Rockbuddy

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Question

It's 11pm or later (small hours in the morning). Absolutely nothing on the road or pavement save one pedestrian who has pressed the lights but manage to cross anyway becuase of the lack of traffic.

You are approaching the lights and they are about to turn red. Its cold, you are tired, its late. Do you RLJ or wait at the lights?

If they are about to turn red are they on amber??? In that case I would probably not stop and take my chance. Having said that it's 11pm I'm tired and maybe not concentrating as well as I could be...maybe haven't seen the ninja ped running to cross on the green man and I don't have time to stop... Basically it's up to you do the right thing or don't, you have to live with the consequences. I remember vividly a ped shouting after me last November as I sped past them at a zebra crossing. It was dark I was lit up and he was a ninja, I honestly didn't see him but luckly I missed hitting him.

Do they not have street lights in Cardiff?

Roastiecp wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

QuestionYou are approaching the lights and they are about to turn red. Its cold, you are tired, its late. Do you RLJ or wait at the lights?

I'm walking home late at night wearing dark coloured clothes. I'm tired and it is cold. I get to the ped crossing and fortunately someone has just got to it moments before so I can just scoot through. I hear nothing behind me so I step right onto the crossing without first looking for traffic (the ped light is green, after all). The light is about to change, so quicken my step to hurry across. Next thing I'm on the deck hit by some twit on a bike who jumped the red.

I really don't care that he was tired, and consequently not quite as observant as he should have been, or that I had stepped out of the shadows into his path - the light was b1oody well red and he should have stopped! B1oody cyclists.

Do they not have street lights in Battersea?

@Rock and Roast. Are you honestly telling me that at night you still won't RLJ? Even if you slow to approach the lights - crawling to a halt - there is no one crossing (the person who pressed the lights has since crossed) and you know these lights they will stay red for a while, even under those circumstances you won't RLJ?

They have street lights and cars have lights, I even have lights, lots of light - still can't always make out the ninjas very well, especially if my eyes are drawn to all that light.

Like I said I might go through but I would be aware that my actions may have consquences. It's still breaking the law but that not to say I've never broken the law. It's still a far cry from some of the posters, protesting their seemed god given right to RLJ.

DonDaddyD

Pedestrians cross the road all the time when there is no green man. I do this as a pedestrian. Sometimes as a pedestrian I can't be bothered to walk to the crossing so I just cross the road where I feel its safe. I don't argue about this with other pedestrians. It's my risk to take. If I can see that the road is clear and its not at a junction with cars coming round the corner then I'll cross.

Just pointing that out.

I'm just a regular menance to society.... Oh sh*t SAS coming through the window!!!! They monitor the Internet they monitor the Internet.... must escape!!!

DonDaddyD

Rockbuddy wrote:

Like I said I might go through but I would be aware that my actions may have consquences. It's still breaking the law but that not to say I've never broken the law. It's still a far cry from some of the posters, protesting their seemed god given right to RLJ.

So to clarify. You RLJ when you feel its safe and necessary to do so, even though you accept its wrong.

ellieb

But the significant difference is that it is illegal to RLJ on a bike. It isn't against the law to Jay walk...even if the light is red against pedestrians

DonDaddyD

Hello Ellie

Any developments on the bike?

You are completely right, RLJing is completely illegal and we shouldn't do it. Its dangerous. Crossing the road improperly is not illegal (probably because it can't be effectively policed), dangerous and we shouldn't do it.

I'm just saying that pedestrians do. From a risk assessment standpoint they are able to look up and down the road and have a high non-incident rate when crossing the road improperly. So I'm not buying the argument that a cyclist will be surprised by a pedestrian jumping out at a crossing.

Its really simple, slow down, if it looks like there is a pedstrian at, near or approaching the crossing then stop. If clear RLJ if you want. But know that what you are about to perform is illegal and punishable by fine. (So is going toilet outside, but I'll be hard pushed to hold it drunk after a night out....)

bigmat

Its illegal to be drunk in public isn't it? Certainly illegal to be drunk in charge of a vehicle however several people on this forum who castigate RLJers are happy to own up to cycling whilst under the influence. There are all sorts of examples of behaviour that contravenes the law but which is not generally policed because it does nobody any harm - I would suggest that RLJing is one. I'm not saying its always OK, I'm just saying that its sometimes OK and as DDD's above example of the crossing in the night demonstrates, its pretty much impossible to convincingly argue against that statement.

Rockbuddy

_Brun_ wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

You can't always see what is coming no matter how considered you are in your manner, it brings to mind the SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You) excuse given by so many drivers. I don't see very much difference between reckless and considered RLJing you are still a potential danger to yourself and more importantly others on the road.

SMIDSY is, like you say, an excuse. There's a massive difference between not being able to see something and not being arsed to look properly.

It is emphatically not difficult to be perfectly confident that a road is clear for the time it would take to cross it. If it was so dangerous, the attrition rate amongst pedestrians would be rather a lot higher than it is.

SMIDSY is what the car driver that you didn't see will say if he hits you. Do what ever you want I'm just saying red is red you make your choices and you live with them...

Is this the car driver that suddenly appears from absolutely nowhere? I hate it when that happens! Particularly when they don't seem to hit the woman with a push chair crossing the road a few metres away from me. :roll:

Honestly, if you're that unsure what's going on around you I don't know how you have the confidence to leave the house in a morning, let alone get on a bike.

Fine you don't get my point of view and obviously I don't get yours so I guess we'll both learn to live with it

Rockbuddy

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

Like I said I might go through but I would be aware that my actions may have consquences. It's still breaking the law but that not to say I've never broken the law. It's still a far cry from some of the posters, protesting their seemed god given right to RLJ.

So to clarify. You RLJ when you feel its safe and necessary to do so, even though you accept its wrong.

You like to win don't ya DDD Like I have said (maybe not here, can't remember this is becoming a big thread) I have RLJ'd before, won't lie to ya (no-ones perfect, I'm not claiming to be). However, I do not advocate it and think that it is unecessary. Hope I don't come across too 'preachy' everyone has to make their own choices, I'd like to think that I wouldn't go through the 'hypothetical red light' but it wouldn't be the first stupid thing I'd done if I did. Just seems there are quite a few people here RLJing and not seeing anything wrong with it at all. :?

chuckcork

DonDaddyD wrote:

Hello Ellie
Its really simple, slow down, if it looks like there is a pedstrian at, near or approaching the crossing then stop. If clear RLJ if you want. But know that what you are about to perform is illegal and punishable by fine. (So is going toilet outside, but I'll be hard pushed to hold it drunk after a night out....)

Not a red light issue per se, but I've come up to a pedestrian crossing, not seen anyone at it with cars in the way of my sightlines and stopped traffic in the lane next to me so no indication there was anyone there, plenty of traffic behind me to worry about, and plenty ahead as well, and then been rather suprised to find a ped crossing where I couldn't see one.

Mother with child in pram to be exact. Then copped a mouthful from driver of the car (that I couldn't for some reason see through) about how I should have stopped, to which the only response could be "I have to see them first".

Funny how when I've been crossing and had drivers race through without seeing me....

I've had similar with light controlled ped crossings as well, a particular one featured a young woman stepping out into the road against the little red man then steeping back, I was so nervous about what she was doing at seemingly random I didn't pay much attention to the traffic lights, then when she was entitled to cross and did so I nearly ran into her.

Paying attention? Absolutely in both cases! Not always possible to see everything though, my "attentional blindness" can be quite bad at times, but if you start deliberately ignoring the highway code the hit rate is gonna rise.

Roastie

By coincidence today, while riding home, I found myself bombing happily towards an intersection (very green for me) - then seeing two cyclists on the crossing road *both* seemingly look straight at me, and then jump the red.

The first made it through *just*. The second I came very close to T-boning. I'm guessing he looked for traffic, but simply missed me (the cyclist) coming along so just pulled out. This is hardly unusual, I think we all accept that it can be difficult to see cyclists with all that goes on in busy London streets.

Of course, this is still very surprising, because from the evidence on this thread, I'd have expected that all RLJ'ing cyclists have an innate sense of common sense and impeccable judgement, so would never make a mistake like that. In this case both made a rather dumb-ass decision to RLJ with a fellow cyclist bearing down on them.

But then again, I guess these guys were hybrid riding numpties, not the sort of impeccable cyclists that frequent and post on this forum.

chuckcork

I've had an idiot woman cyclist turning right across me at a junction (green light) which forced me to take evasive action to avoid running into her, she was completely oblivious to my presence in bright morning sunshine, even to my shout to watch where she was going!

"not seeing me" could not possibly have been an excuse, unless she was registered blind!

Some people are just plain stupid I think.

Maybe I should have put my fist out and clocked her one....

bromleycommuter

I am new to this forum and fairly new to commuting. Being new to commuting I am fat and unfit so stop at every red light I can just to catch my breath. In all seriousness I commute by bike from Bromley to Brixton 3 times per week by bike and the rest by car. I never jump a red light because I value my life and respect other road users.

Is it ok for cars to rlj if no pedestrians are crossing - is it ok for a car to turn left if safe to do so on a red.

I think the answer to that is no. I am sick of cars pulling out in front of me and not looking and pedestrians walking out in front of me but that is no excuse for breaking the law. Last year I broke my arm and leg when a pedestrian walked out in front of me when I was on a green light going down a hill.

I was hit by an arse of a cyclist when I was crossing the road last November and re-broke my arm. I was crossing on a pelican and the cyclist was on a red. Just could not be bothered to wait. He got up and rode off and I am left not able to straighten my arm - never again so the doctor tells me. What do i think of pedestrians, drivers and cyclists that RLJ........ all idiots!

Roastie

bromleycommuter wrote:

I am new to this forum and fairly new to commuting. Being new to commuting I am fat and unfit so stop at every red light I can just to catch my breath. In all seriousness I commute by bike from Bromley to Brixton 3 times per week by bike and the rest by car. I never jump a red light because I value my life and respect other road users.

Is it ok for cars to rlj if no pedestrians are crossing - is it ok for a car to turn left if safe to do so on a red.

I think the answer to that is no. I am sick of cars pulling out in front of me and not looking and pedestrians walking out in front of me but that is no excuse for breaking the law. Last year I broke my arm and leg when a pedestrian walked out in front of me when I was on a green light going down a hill.

I was hit by an ars* of a cyclist when I was crossing the road last November and re-broke my arm. I was crossing on a pelican and the cyclist was on a red. Just could not be bothered to wait. He got up and rode off and I am left not able to straighten my arm - never again so the doctor tells me. What do i think of pedestrians, drivers and cyclists that RLJ........ all idiots!

Thanks Brom, no more hypothetical arguments required then.

Stone Glider

Roastiecp +1.

I do love this Forum, so many views and so much respect.

Comparatively.

chuckcork

bromleycommuter wrote:

Is it ok for cars to rlj if no pedestrians are crossing - is it ok for a car to turn left if safe to do so on a red.

Only if plod does it, from what I've seen (no emergency required either) :?