Are rules always Black and White? Is RLJing always wrong?

Jay dubbleU

No - never have - we can't expect to be treated seriously as road users if we don't obey the rules - we'd soon get hacked off if cars decided that they could go ahead on pedestrian crossings if they were red and no-one was in sight

Of course if no-one's in sight how do we know they don't - back to falling trees in forests

Stuey01

The issue with RLJing under any circumstances, apart from it being against the law, is that it enforces the belief held by many drivers that all cyclists are arrogant renegades who believe themselves to be above the law.

Sitting in a car at a red light whilst a cyclist goes sailing on through is very frustrating for the driver, even though it does not directly affect them in any way.

This only serves to increase resentment and agression toward cyclists from other road users.

lost_in_thought

Stuey01 wrote:

The issue with RLJing under any circumstances, apart from it being against the law, is that it enforces the belief held by many drivers that all cyclists are arrogant renegades who believe themselves to be above the law.

Sitting in a car at a red light whilst a cyclist goes sailing on through is very frustrating for the driver, even though it does not directly affect them in any way.

This only serves to increase resentment and agression toward cyclists from other road users.

+1

biondino

I just don't get how it's safer for a bike to go early on a red light. Yes, you get ahead of traffic (and I'm assuming you don't cross other lanes of traffic or weave through peds), but since traffic is almost certainly going to pass you 20 yards on it's not much of an improvement. You are also doing something unexpected/unpredictable, which should always be a no-no on the roads.

Maybe I'm lucky, but one thing I've never really experienced is being in danger when the lights, at which I and all other traffic are legally stopped, turn green. I guess really slow or unassertive people might find themselves left hooked by impatient cars cutting across them?

Rockbuddy

It's always wrong! The law is black and white!
However, life is generally varying shades of grey and nobody obeys the rules all the time. I'm not saying I've never RLJ'd I have but tend to a lot less now a days. I think I have less of a stand point to moan about car drivers frequent floughting of the law if I am always breaking it myself. If it's a safety issue fair enough but how often is it that much safer to RLJ???
Alot of the time IMO people RLJ because of impatience or lazziness, which is exactly what we have a go at motorists for when they just have to get past you to join the back of the next que!?
Just my opinion not a dig at anyone in particular

Rockbuddy

It's always wrong! The law is black and white!
However, life is generally varying shades of grey and nobody obeys the rules all the time. I'm not saying I've never RLJ'd I have but tend to a lot less now a days. I think I have less of a stand point to moan about car drivers frequent floughting of the law if I am always breaking it myself. If it's a safety issue fair enough but how often is it that much safer to RLJ???
Alot of the time IMO people RLJ because of impatience or lazziness, which is exactly what we have a go at motorists for when they just have to get past you to join the back of the next que!?
Just my opinion not a dig at anyone in particular

soy_sauce

biondino wrote:

I just don't get how it's safer for a bike to go early on a red light. Yes, you get ahead of traffic (and I'm assuming you don't cross other lanes of traffic or weave through peds), but since traffic is almost certainly going to pass you 20 yards on it's not much of an improvement. You are also doing something unexpected/unpredictable, which should always be a no-no on the roads.

Maybe I'm lucky, but one thing I've never really experienced is being in danger when the lights, at which I and all other traffic are legally stopped, turn green. I guess really slow or unassertive people might find themselves left hooked by impatient cars cutting across them?

thats exactly what i was thinking. there are alot of other unexpected thing that can happen so to say "it is safer" is not a reason for RLJ, since one day it can be "safer" but the other day it might be deadly.

at least by waiting at the light, the drivers behind you would know what to expect and in a way it will be actually safer that way.

wantaway

Stuey01 wrote:

The issue with RLJing under any circumstances, apart from it being against the law, is that it enforces the belief held by many drivers that all cyclists are arrogant renegades who believe themselves to be above the law.

Sitting in a car at a red light whilst a cyclist goes sailing on through is very frustrating for the driver, even though it does not directly affect them in any way.

This only serves to increase resentment and agression toward cyclists from other road users.

could not hope to put it any better than that.

Everyone here who seems to think some level of RLJ is sometimes ok seems to only be able to view it from the very narrow personal viewpoint of how they judge the situation (improving thier safety, able to get home a bit quicker, can't be arsed to follow rules) and how these individuals make this call. Thing is, the law regarding red lights does not work like that though does it.

I feel like I am turning to the John Goodman character from the Big Lebowski....

wgwarburton

DonDaddyD wrote:

Its always wrong
Also I feel that its correct to think but stupid to expect bicycles to always act the same as motorised vehicles ......

Bicycles are traffic, and traffic should stop at red lights.

I think it's actually wrong to think bicycles should "always act the same as motorised vehicles", just as it's wrong to think that trucks should behave the same as cars or horsedrawn carraiges.

What we ought to be aiming for is recognition of, and respect for, the varying needs of different road users. Obeying traffic regulations is a big part of that, but it doesn't mean you have to ride as if you were in a car.

Filtering's legal, ASLs are there to help, some shared-use paths are helpful (eg middle meadow walk in Edinburgh cuts straight across parkland, a useful shortcut, and is generally respected by pedestrians) and bikes can use them, though cars shouldn't.
Bus lanes are there to help PT flow freely, Crawler lanes to let cars pass heavily laden trucks, motorways for high-speed vehicles... etc.

We're all traffic, and should acknowledge that, and crucially... Just because cycling is a right, and driving a privilige, that doesn't mean we should be arrogant about it!

Cheers,
W.

roger_merriman

to be honest i've never found a time when it was safer i've gone though lights that have failed ie on red 100% of the time, or when i still lived in the hills the few times they dug up some of the lanes and frankly i wasn't going to wait at 4am on a road i could see there was no traffic and no turn offs for good few miles... so i'd just woosh past.

most of the time the RLJ have so little traffic sense that one catchs up with them soon enought any way. it seems some what pointless for most.

DonDaddyD

WGWarburton wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Its always wrong
Also I feel that its correct to think but stupid to expect bicycles to always act the same as motorised vehicles ......

Bicycles are traffic, and traffic should stop at red lights.

In principle I believe you, in practice I don't.

Other road users don't treat bikes as traffic so to simply assume that you are in and of itself can be dangerous.

I will RLJ as an extreme measure to ensure my safety. Even if it means passing the ASL and stopping at the other side of the crossing but before the junction.

Yes to RLJ is wrong and no I don't recommend it. I don't advocate it and yes possibly in a few months time with more experience I may even consider myself a numpty.

the_hundredth_idiot

I don't RLJ (well, I RLJ only very occasionally if I'm honest).

But although I agree that bikes are traffic, that doesn't make them the same as cars - we're allowed to use certain paths, for example.

If I can jump off my bike and walk alongside it through red lights (as any pedestrian would), there is very little difference between walking my bike though and cycling (slowly) through. What if I waddle through stood over the crossbar but feet on the ground? Feels like there's some grey to me.

Also, how do you cope with moving from the road to shared use paths when you have to go through a red? An example: Bricklayer's Arms roundabout in SE London has shared use paths all around it. I stay on the road for some of it but then hop onto the shared use paths at one of the traffic lights/pedestrian crossings - when I change from road to path, I'm either jumping a red on the road or I'm jumping a red on the pedestrian crossing (hope that's clear. ). Rainman would just stay there frozen knowing that he'd be breaking the law one way or another.

Also, when I'm on the shared use path and approach a pedestrian crossing, if it has red showing (for peds and bikes) but no cars are coming then I keep on going and ignore the red. Is that RLJing?

Jay dubbleU

That's my point exactly DDD - other road users won't treat us as traffic unless we work by the same set of rules - as long as people RLJ other traffic won't take us seriously

_Brun_

The Hundredth Idiot wrote:

What if I waddle through stood over the crossbar but feet on the ground?

That's genius!

DonDaddyD

Jay dubbleU wrote:

That's my point exactly DDD - other road users won't treat us as traffic unless we work by the same set of rules - as long as people RLJ other traffic won't take us seriously

Conversely it is the actions of those other road users that have forced me to RLJ.

Let me explain.

Very rarely will I approach a lights thats turned red, with no pedestrians at the crossing, and proceed to pass through the red lights. (though there are cases when I have... when no one is looking :P )

I have however stopped at a red lights and either been forced or compelled to pass through those red lights because of the @hole behind me and their knuckle dragging actions.

bigmat

wantaway wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

The issue with RLJing under any circumstances, apart from it being against the law, is that it enforces the belief held by many drivers that all cyclists are arrogant renegades who believe themselves to be above the law.

Sitting in a car at a red light whilst a cyclist goes sailing on through is very frustrating for the driver, even though it does not directly affect them in any way.

This only serves to increase resentment and agression toward cyclists from other road users.

could not hope to put it any better than that.

Everyone here who seems to think some level of RLJ is sometimes ok seems to only be able to view it from the very narrow personal viewpoint of how they judge the situation (improving thier safety, able to get home a bit quicker, can't be arsed to follow rules) and how these individuals make this call. Thing is, the law regarding red lights does not work like that though does it.
I feel like I am turning to the John Goodman character from the Big Lebowski....

Judging by the number of times I've been stopped for running a red light, I'd say that's exactly how the law works. Motor vehicles generally view cyclists as getting in the way. I've experienced this first hand being a passenger with friends and family (and taxis, worst of all). To be honest, I think most drivers get more irritated getting stuck behind slow moving cyclists at junctions / on the road than they do by RLJing cyclists (unless you are at the front of the queue you wouldn't even notice). There will always be a Clarkson loving, Daily Mail reading element of society that take any excuse to attack cyclists but at the end of the day they just hate us - and not for any rational reason.

_Brun_

Jay dubbleU wrote:

That's my point exactly DDD - other road users won't treat us as traffic unless we work by the same set of rules - as long as people RLJ other traffic won't take us seriously

To what degree do you expect that 100% compliance with traffic lights would increase the respect drivers have for cyclists? We still wouldn't pay 'road tax' or have any insurance, and I'm sure either of those would remain ample cause for resentment.

I've even spoken to drivers who agree that cyclists transgressing lights when circumstances allow it to be done safely (left turn being the obvious example) is sensible from the point of view that it keeps things moving, and reduces congestion when the lights turn green.

gtvlusso

I guess you could say - tit for tat.....The amount of drivers I see in cyclelanes, parked, stationary and waiting or pull into a cyclelane on top of you to avoid someone turing right (i.e. not using left side mirror) - we have every right to play a few of our own rules (RLJ).....but that incites lowering ourselves to staggering level of ignorance.

Rockbuddy

gtvlusso wrote:

Thats quite funny - I outran 2 bicycle rozza's last month.....They turned onto the A38 in Brizzle as I was passing (at speed down the outside of the traffic) - summit must have pee'd them off as they gave chase and were shouting for me to stop "you with the camo bag!"....could see them pedalling like crazy behind me in the rear screens of the cars I passed.....Fully laden mountain bike Vs lightweight roadie......I just did little MTFU and dissapeared, did not see them again.....Wonder if they wanted me for some other infringelment....I don't know all the rules, so I don't know. Quite proud of myself at the time though.

That's great that you can out run a copper on an mtb :roll: Why didn't you stop, surely it's quite a serious offence not to stop for a copper, even when you're on a bike???

DonDaddyD

_Brun_ wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

That's my point exactly DDD - other road users won't treat us as traffic unless we work by the same set of rules - as long as people RLJ other traffic won't take us seriously

To what degree do you expect that 100% compliance with traffic lights would increase the respect drivers have for cyclists? We still wouldn't pay 'road tax' or have any insurance, and I'm sure either of those would remain ample cause for resentment.

I've even spoken to drivers who agree that cyclists transgressing lights when circumstances allow it to be done safely (left turn being the obvious example) is sensible from the point of view that it keeps things moving, and reduces congestion when the lights turn green.

+1

gtvlusso

Rockbuddy wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Thats quite funny - I outran 2 bicycle rozza's last month.....They turned onto the A38 in Brizzle as I was passing (at speed down the outside of the traffic) - summit must have pee'd them off as they gave chase and were shouting for me to stop "you with the camo bag!"....could see them pedalling like crazy behind me in the rear screens of the cars I passed.....Fully laden mountain bike Vs lightweight roadie......I just did little MTFU and dissapeared, did not see them again.....Wonder if they wanted me for some other infringelment....I don't know all the rules, so I don't know. Quite proud of myself at the time though.

That's great that you can out run a copper on an mtb :roll: Why didn't you stop, surely it's quite a serious offence not to stop for a copper, even when you're on a bike???

If they wanted me for something serious, radio waves travel faster than bikes and they could have called for a car or assistance.....Actually, I can imagine they would not want to call for assistance as it would undermine them being on bikes!! Losing a cyclist as a cyclist would not really justify the budget allocated for them....

You are talking to a man who was deported and banned from France (for sleeping on the streets aged 16), so, 2 mtb coppers in Brizzle is childs play.....I am not proud, but it is very funny and one of those stories that will be told on my death bed.

And ultimately, I did not hear them over the noise of the traffic.......;-)

Live a little!

AndyManc

Are rules always Black and White? Is RLJing always wrong?


Its never wrong ..... especially if it's raining, freezin cold, you're being chased by a dog and it's 5:15 am. :roll:




.

Rockbuddy

gtvlusso wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Thats quite funny - I outran 2 bicycle rozza's last month.....They turned onto the A38 in Brizzle as I was passing (at speed down the outside of the traffic) - summit must have pee'd them off as they gave chase and were shouting for me to stop "you with the camo bag!"....could see them pedalling like crazy behind me in the rear screens of the cars I passed.....Fully laden mountain bike Vs lightweight roadie......I just did little MTFU and dissapeared, did not see them again.....Wonder if they wanted me for some other infringelment....I don't know all the rules, so I don't know. Quite proud of myself at the time though.

That's great that you can out run a copper on an mtb :roll: Why didn't you stop, surely it's quite a serious offence not to stop for a copper, even when you're on a bike???

If they wanted me for something serious, radio waves travel faster than bikes and they could have called for a car or assistance.....Actually, I can imagine they would not want to call for assistance as it would undermine them being on bikes!! Losing a cyclist as a cyclist would not really justify the budget allocated for them....

You are talking to a man who was deported and banned from France (for sleeping on the streets aged 16), so, 2 mtb coppers in Brizzle is childs play.....I am not proud, but it is very funny and one of those stories that will be told on my death bed.

And ultimately, I did not hear them over the noise of the traffic.......;-)

Live a little!

OK, so if I'm honest I did laugh a little when I read the first post, just seemed like you were bragging rather than telling a funny story... Anyways, not trying to have fight, so I'm off ta live a little

il_principe

gtvlusso wrote:

Rockbuddy wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Thats quite funny - I outran 2 bicycle rozza's last month.....They turned onto the A38 in Brizzle as I was passing (at speed down the outside of the traffic) - summit must have pee'd them off as they gave chase and were shouting for me to stop "you with the camo bag!"....could see them pedalling like crazy behind me in the rear screens of the cars I passed.....Fully laden mountain bike Vs lightweight roadie......I just did little MTFU and dissapeared, did not see them again.....Wonder if they wanted me for some other infringelment....I don't know all the rules, so I don't know. Quite proud of myself at the time though.

That's great that you can out run a copper on an mtb :roll: Why didn't you stop, surely it's quite a serious offence not to stop for a copper, even when you're on a bike???

If they wanted me for something serious, radio waves travel faster than bikes and they could have called for a car or assistance.....Actually, I can imagine they would not want to call for assistance as it would undermine them being on bikes!! Losing a cyclist as a cyclist would not really justify the budget allocated for them....

You are talking to a man who was deported and banned from France (for sleeping on the streets aged 16), so, 2 mtb coppers in Brizzle is childs play.....I am not proud, but it is very funny and one of those stories that will be told on my death bed.

And ultimately, I did not hear them over the noise of the traffic.......;-)

Live a little!

Brilliant. Sorry, but that is brilliant. Serves them right for having those stupid bikes. It's the same in London, dirty great MTB's. What is the point? They're never going to catch anyone on those things and London isn't exactly mountainous - whoever procured them must have been a genius :roll:

gtvlusso

We still have a mounted sction in Brizzle - often see them in the parks and at the football. I don't get it to be honest, Brizzle is too hilly for a copper with full kit on a heavy weight, cheap mtb......It was not going to be a difficult task to leave them, it would have been a nicer experience if I had been on the fixie......

The deportation is a funnier story, but we'll save that one for now. I also got held at gunpoint in Italy by rozzas after escaping on a mini moto.....My wife and mother have the patience of angels!! And I have the mind of a 16 year old, in the body of a 35 year old.....

attica

Eau Rouge wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

As a cyclist I consider myself a pedestrian with wheels rather than a car without a motor.

Burn him! Burn him! he's even worse than a witch!
I can't tell you how much I want to change your mindset, for everyones sake. The single biggest problem facing cycling in this country is the idea that somehow cyclists aren't part of the traffic, but instead pedestrains. Everything else seems to stem from that mistake.

+1 For that

If you want to be considered a pedestrian, ride at the same speed as pedestrian and stay off the road (suddenly a bit pointless having a bike isn't it?)

nation

In Brum the cycle cops have Kona Hoss MTBs, donated by the people that run the Bullring. I always wondered if that was someone trying to subtly insult them, given that the Hoss is specially overbuilt for riders 18 stone+.

It even has a specially specced Marzocchi fork with heavier springs and damping fluid.

biondino

Hey DDD:

"I have however stopped at a red lights and either been forced or compelled to pass through those red lights because of the @hole behind me and their knuckle dragging actions."

I don't understand - unless you're physically pushed through the red light (or threatened with assault I guess?), how are you compelled by people behind you?

DonDaddyD

@Biondino

Revving engine and purposely pushing forward closer to me.

Speed the car was approaching the ASL. I knew he wasn't going to stop before he got to the ASL, he didn't.

Person hurling abuse saying that I should move out of the way. I'm not mounting the pavemnet I'm just moving into a position that gives me more room to set off.

jonginge

DonDaddyD wrote:

@Biondino

Revving engine and purposely pushing forward closer to me.

Speed the car was approaching the ASL. I knew he wasn't going to stop before he got to the ASL, he didn't.

Person hurling abuse saying that I should move out of the way. I'm not mounting the pavemnet I'm just moving into a position that gives me more room to set off.

Oh, I assumed you meant a drafting fairy millimetres off your back wheel. Another cyclist ran into the back of me once at an RL. I'd been stationary with foot down for a couple of seconds :roll: His excuse was he was looking at the car that may have been about to change lanes instead of where he was going :roll: :roll: