First MTB Hardtail of Full Sus?
captainfly
Posts: 1,001
Okay I am just getting back to mountain biking, and have narrowed down my choices to a GT Avalanche 1.o disc '08 or a Mongoose Teocall Comp '08 cost isn't much of an issue. Both seemto what I intend to do well enough and I am sure I would be happy with either.
But the big dilemma is should I learn the craft on a hardtail or go full suspension straight away?
My current view is go full suspension and get a bmx (or jump bike) if I need to hone my bike control or have an urge to really break myself :roll: at a later date.
But the big dilemma is should I learn the craft on a hardtail or go full suspension straight away?
My current view is go full suspension and get a bmx (or jump bike) if I need to hone my bike control or have an urge to really break myself :roll: at a later date.
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Mongoose Teocali
Giant STP0
Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:
Mongoose Teocali
Giant STP0
Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:
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Comments
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it depends on so many factors.
to start with, do you want to ride the really rough stuff at full pelt or are you more into singletrack and distance?
how much travel do you think you need? i live in scotland and 6" works best for most of my riding, but you might want more or less.0 -
I ride a 4inch travel full suss these days,my back can't take many long rides on the ht any more.But ive been riding for almost 15 years mostly on a hardtail,its only been in the last 2 years that ive Had a full suss,and that went from a ht to fs back to a ht then ive finished up on a fs which feels like a ht but with the comfort of a Fullsuss. :roll:
Id say learn your trade on a HT first, you will learn many important skills that you just can't get with a full suss.
This is just my opinion,Im sure some one will come and blow holes through it.
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Jesus_Christ wrote:it depends on so many factors.
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Doesn't it just
I was after opinions, as we all learn from what we've done and I am pretty sure you lot have done a load more riding than I have. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Mongoose Teocali
Giant STP0
Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:0 -
What type of ridin' will you use this new bike for?Now that we are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves. ROMANS 15:10
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There is a train of thought that full suspension can mask poor technique, and personally I'd subscribe to that.
When I got back into MTB about 5 years ago I went the whole hog an bought a full squidger. Last year, I bought a hardtail as well, just for hooning around on.
When I started riding the hardtail, it made me realise how much I'd forgotten and also what bad habits I'd picked up in the process!! I had a whole lot of "unlearning" to do first before I made any headway.
I used to be involved in rifle shooting, mainly with air rifles. There are two main types of air rifle, spring-powered and pre-charged (PCP). Springers recoil, PCPs don't. In shooting circles, the rule was that if you can learn to be a good shot with springer, using a PCP will be like a walk in the park. If you learn with a PCP, you're in for a nasty shock when you use a springer for the first time! I think the same follows with bikes - if you can be a good rider on a hardtail, you'll murder a full suss.
If I was doing it all again I'd get a hardtail first and learn to ride properly, then move up to a squidger.0 -
how can riding a full susser possibly mean that youre not learning to ride properly? that is such crap.
riding a full susser simply means that you can ride over obstacles that would be near impossible on a hardtail and with more speed and confidence. are you suggesting that world cup dh riders are less skilled than the equivalent xc riders? both bikes require good handling skills. a bad rider is a bad rider, regardless of thier machine. having a susser doesnt cover up poor skills at all. ive never heard such utter sh1t.
the two bikes are completely different. you might as well compare skiing to snowboarding.0 -
I would say a hardtail makes you think more about picking your lines and you need to get out the saddle a bit more and lift the front end over things which is good stuff to learn.
However, I have a Teocali Comp and it is a great bike for the money, I'd buy it
Shot by both sides...0 -
def +1.Whytepeak wrote:What type of ridin' will you use this new bike for?
Personally, I don't see the need of full suss for XC or (fairly light) trail work.
When it comes to steep, rocky decents, jumps and more DH type terrain a FS would help mask "mistakes" - as they are more forgiving.
Personally I like my HT. If I get something wrong i'll know about it - I'll be on the floor. But it means I have more to improve on, and I like the fact that it can be more technical and challenging.0 -
but if you get something wrong on a susser you'll still be on the floor.
i dont know here this idea that sussers cover up bad riding technique comes from, but its complete garbage.0 -
true. but without that rear bounce, it can be harder to keep a HT on track as easily as with a FS. (over the same terrain).
I never said that bad technique is hidden, just that a mistake on a HT could end up in a bail, whereas the same mistake on a FS might not be noticed.*
*this is all personal opinion btw (before another HT 'v' FS argument starts) 0 -
CFS wrote:However, I have a Teocali Comp and it is a great bike for the money, I'd buy it
If you'd have bitched about it then it would have made my life much easier :shock: -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Mongoose Teocali
Giant STP0
Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:0 -
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Oh JC, from your first post I thought you'd found some sanity, thankfully you've not sold your soul though. :twisted:
All world class downhillers will have ridden hardtails or even full rigid at the beginning of their riding adventures, it does make you faster and better to learn the correct line, much easier done on a hardtail, beyond the initial learning curve I feel it depends on what type of riding you want to pursue, if you start riding a full suss from the off you will pick up bad habits, I'm not denying that you may well still become a good rider but it will take longer and you won't be as rounded.
And as for ending up on the floor, you know it takes at least twice the amount of poor selection to go down on a full susser or a complete disregard for speed, either way its counterproductive.
At the OP if cost isn't an issue buy them both!
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my point is that it wouldnt be a mistake on a full susser.
riding full pelt at a rooty gully on a HT is suicide, the same on a susser is how the bike should be ridden. if you fall off on your ht but stay on the bouncer then its not because the susser covered up a mistake, but that it is built for that sort of riding.0 -
Not so, if you can look ahead pick a line and know how to ride it, you will make it on a hardtail, admittedly not as quick as you might on a full susser, if you can ride.
I can know see where your coming from though, but do you not feel that having the basic bike handling skills in place, without any bad habits, would make you quicker on a fully?0 -
bigbenj_08 wrote:captainfly
on topic.... you never did say what type of riding your doing???
I didn't did I :roll: I will start of with rough farm track and forest trails, not big climbs or mad single track downhills, simple fact is I am unsure of how fast my riding will evolve, the cliche 'all mountain' or 'adventure' springs to mind. I think 90% or more of the time either will be great I think but for either there will be 5% where one will excel and the other will suck.-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Mongoose Teocali
Giant STP0
Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:0 -
Well after considering all the opinions and advice, as well as the questions I have gone for the teocali comp. I haven't igored you all, I just read between the lines 8) It is the extra comfort, traction and flattering poor driving :roll: Though there will probably be BMX (or dirt/jump bike) to join it in the future.-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Mongoose Teocali
Giant STP0
Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:0 -
Too much to read above and little time so sorry if it's repeated.
Learn to ride properly on a hardtail then if you fancy a full susser get one a year or two later.
I started with a full susser now I've only got hardtails, I don't think full sussers are needed for xc riding here in the UK0 -
Well I faced the same dilemma a couple of months back (£1000 budget) and went for full-suss. Delighted that I did. Apart from the cracking downhill performance, I just love the comfort on the trails.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
definitly a hardtail they will do any thing and are cheaper to replace when you killthem :twisted:2 Broken fingers broken again... F@$%^£g hell that hurt!!!
92% of teenagers have turned to rap. If your one of the 8% that still listens to real music put this in your sig.
METAL!!!!!0 -
Jesus_Christ wrote:how can riding a full susser possibly mean that youre not learning to ride properly? that is such crap.
riding a full susser simply means that you can ride over obstacles that would be near impossible on a hardtail and with more speed and confidence.
You answer your own question :roll: Full suss makes things easier. Obstacles which will challenge you on a HT can be no challenge on a full suss, enabling you to ride the same route with less skill. I took out a Zesty 514 and a Cotic Soul at the weekend, back to back, and rode the exact same loop. The Soul needed skill to get round the route at speed. The Zesty needed far less skill to do the same thing faster. It is, frankly, so obvious and simple that most people don't need it explained to them.
You do strike a point where full suss can go places that a hardtail can't, but that's completely irrelevant to a beginner anyway since they'll not be riding that sort of route anyway.Uncompromising extremist0 -
If it's all about learning the right technique, why does no-one ever seem to suggest learning on a fully rigid?You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
yes, but as i have already said, riding the susser requires skill too, you lot talk as though having a susser means that you can be utterly useless and the bike will do the riding for you when that its quite clearly untrue.
the way some of you talk new riders would think that riding dh on a susser is easy because it will forgive mistakes that a boneshaker wont. i wonder how many newbies have put this to the test and found that riding a susser requires a great deal of skill.
as for the 'riding a ht will make you think more about the line you take and this makes you s better rider' line, how about 'the susser will make you a better rider because you will be able to carry speed over difficult sections'
or is that not being a 'good' rider means?0 -
Jesus_Christ wrote:the way some of you talk new riders would think that riding dh on a susser is easy because it will forgive mistakes that a boneshaker wont.
But it will! Do you really believe that the same rider on a full-on DH rig wouldn't find the Fort William course easier than on a hardtail? I know I would!Jesus_Christ wrote:i wonder how many newbies have put this to the test and found that riding a susser requires a great deal of skill.
No one said it didn't. But a squidger allows you make mistakes - a hardtail doesn't. I know that I cannot ride as far or as fast on a hardtail as I can on a squidger. But I'm the same rider - how does that work then? Do I suddenly and miraculously become a "better rider" simply by slinging a leg over a squidger, and then by some unknown means revert to being a talentless tosspot the minute I sit on an HT again? No, absolutely not - it's because (wait for it)...I can get way with being a talentless tosspot on a squidger and look great!!Jesus_Christ wrote:as for the 'riding a ht will make you think more about the line you take and this makes you s better rider' line, how about 'the susser will make you a better rider because you will be able to carry speed over difficult sections'.
Sheesh, if only. If I jumped out of my old banger and into a Lamborghini, would it make me a better driver? No. Does having Nike Mercurial football boots make me play like Ronaldo? No. If I buy a set of Snap-On spanners instead of my Halfords ones, will it make me a better mechanic? No.
Get the picture?
There's only one thing can make you better at anything - it's called practice.0 -
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its pretty simple.
suspension allows the wheels to move out of the way of obstacles without the riders involvment.
on a hardtail, it is necessary for the rider to move the bike so that the wheels move over the obstacle without hitting it (which clearly reduces speed and can throw you off line.)
A good rider on a susser, will not just plough through a load of roots and rocks. they will still move the bike (by unweighting, manualling, hopping, flicking etc) as they would have done a hardtail, but with the extra tolerance that the suspension gives you.
Bad riders on full sussers just hit the rough stuff at mach chicken with their ar$e on fire and basically just hold on whilst letting the bike suck it up.
As a simple fiscal calulation though, I reckon even still, with less than a grand to spend, you get a whole lot more hardtail than you do full susser.
I also reckon that the majority of riders are totally over-tooled when it comes to suspension. Clearly the suspension gives comfort, can add confidence (because it deals with your poor line choices) and lets you carry speed better.
As an example, my DH bike only has 6" of travel...not really sure how anyone needs it to ride 99% of the XC that folks do.
I ride XC on a hardtail.Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
BOYDIE, i agree,learn to ride hard first.Simples!0
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Seems like you've made your own decision but I pretty much had the same debate a couple of years ago when I started getting back into MTB. Had a budget of about £8-9,00 which either meant I could get a high-end hardtail or an entry level susser. Went with the former (a Rockhopper Disc Pro with Reba SL forks) and frankly have no regrets. As I mostly do cross country and singletrack (and do my stuff in Surrey and the South West rather than Wales or Scotland...) it's absolutely all I need. Have been out on the trails with some FS lads and enviously seen them nail any rocks or gnarly descents (don't get me wrong, I definitely DO wanna get an FS one day) but then again I've generally mullered them going up the hills... I suppose my point is to anyone, think about what kind of kit you can get for your budget and think about what exactly you'll mostly be doing with it. Enjoy the trails...0
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Spot on deebizzle. I like my ht but dream of a full susser, but then think wot do I mainly ride and where? Gonna stik with ht for now and upgrade forks with more travel and see how that goes.
As for comparing ht with full sussers, went to dalby forest demo day and tried both round the course.
The difference is quite staggering, with the hard tail you,ve got to plan your route ahead and then watch the descents, on the full susser you can more or less take any hits and be reassured with all the travel youve got up front and behind. Its certainly easier to go all out on the full susser and not worry too much about wots ahead imo.
I'd never ridden a full susser till then and the confidence this type of bike gives you over any terrain(upto a point) is breathtaking.
But, learn your trade on a ht and then when youve acquired some skills decide then what you want to do with regards full susser etc.
P.S my longest post by far 'Collapse the Light into Earth'0
