Powertap and pedalling efficiency?

vermooten

Hi,

I wonder if my Powertap can somehow show up just how (in)eficient my pedalling stroke is? I've got Power Agent and WKO+ software. Nothing in the manuals as far as I can see.

Much thanks!
Andy

Alex_Simmons/RST

Define what you mean by pedalling efficiency.

But I bet the answer will be no anyway

vermooten

I'm thinking about how consistent my power output is during a revolutio of the pedal. Th edegree to which I'm pedalling in circles. My coach has another system which gets the data from each torque sensor to show this info.

I suspect you're right Alex though!

Andy

Murr X

vermooten wrote:

I'm thinking about how consistent my power output is during a revolutio of the pedal. Th edegree to which I'm pedalling in circles. My coach has another system which gets the data from each torque sensor to show this info.

I suspect you're right Alex though!

Andy

Hi Vermooten, the Powertap will enable to see what cadance and pedaling style produces the most power, which of course is the important thing.

You will also probably find out that pedaling in perfect "circles" (ie not just pushing on the downstroke) is not the most efficient or best way to train or race.

Have fun.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Well the most aerobically powerful riders have the least even application of torque around the pedal stroke. Indeed efforts to even out the application of torque around the pedal stroke will result in a overall reduction of power output.

Don't worry about it, just focus on improving power and the legs will work it out. i.e. push harder and faster.

People should not confuse smooth pedalling with an even application of torque.

vermooten

ace thanks peeps!

To be honest I was hoping for a magic bullet to take my miserable power outputs to the next level up but will have to focus on doing the hard work instead.

Cheers,
Andy

DaveyL

Does this mean all that stuff about training on a fixie over winter to improve your "souplesse" is a load of tosh?

dennisn

DaveyL wrote:

Does this mean all that stuff about training on a fixie over winter to improve your "souplesse" is a load of tosh?

In the "for what it's worth" column, I seem to remember Greg Lemond saying that he never rode fixed. Key words being "seem to remember" and "FWIW".

Dennis Noward

Murr X

DaveyL wrote:

Does this mean all that stuff about training on a fixie over winter to improve your "souplesse" is a load of tosh?

Yep completely! At least for road racers riding bikes with gears.

Bhima

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Well the most aerobically powerful riders have the least even application of torque around the pedal stroke. Indeed efforts to even out the application of torque around the pedal stroke will result in a overall reduction of power output.

Really? Funny how this topic should come up on here as I tried pedalling in perfect circles yesterday, pushing down & forward and pulling up & back - I had quite an insight into my true power - I was truly amazed at what I could do! There's no going back for me now! How is it less powerful?

hamstrich

I've found that pedalling in circles can give me a boost over a short period of time, but I don't think that I could sustain this for long - perhaps the extra muscles required for even torque application fatigue more quickly?

Murr X

Bhima wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Well the most aerobically powerful riders have the least even application of torque around the pedal stroke. Indeed efforts to even out the application of torque around the pedal stroke will result in a overall reduction of power output.

Really? Funny how this topic should come up on here as I tried pedalling in perfect circles yesterday, pushing down & forward and pulling up & back - I had quite an insight into my true power - I was truly amazed at what I could do! There's no going back for me now! How is it less powerful?

Bihma for shorter (very short) efforts you may gain more power by using more muscle mass (pulling up).

BUT just try this experiment. Put you're bike on the turbo and try to hold say 275W whilst pedaling smoothly just pushing on the pedals in you're normal manner. Then try to hold 275W whilst pedaling in "perfect circles" and you will probably see that it a good bit harder to maintain that power output when using this technique and you will not be able to last as long.

BTW. If you do not have a powermeter it is VERY hard to judge if you are producing more or less power by pedaling in "perfect circles". I would say with a good level of confidence that you're case is a classic example of this. If you do not have a PM or have one and not know how to use it properly then you are unqualified to comment on this issue IMO.

You MUST realize that using more muscle mass does NOT always mean more power.

Just trust Alex Simmons, he understands these things, knows what he is talking about and is a good coach - no need to argue with him.

Bhima

Ok, Ok, I wasn't arguing, I was simply asking for more details...

Don't have a power meter (don't even have a turbo trainer! ) but I think i'm going to experiment with different techniques on a hill tomorrow (Saturday is my "hill day"). I reckon i'll be able to beat my personal best on one of the shorter climbs I do using this technique.

Like I said, I only tried this for the first time yesterday so have not got enough experience doing it yet. It just seemed like a far better way of pedalling because of the massive accelleration up to 30mph (in a headwind :shock: ) I experienced!

chrisw12

Murr X wrote:

Bhima wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Well the most aerobically powerful riders have the least even application of torque around the pedal stroke. Indeed efforts to even out the application of torque around the pedal stroke will result in a overall reduction of power output.

Really? Funny how this topic should come up on here as I tried pedalling in perfect circles yesterday, pushing down & forward and pulling up & back - I had quite an insight into my true power - I was truly amazed at what I could do! There's no going back for me now! How is it less powerful?

Bihma for shorter (very short) efforts you may gain more power by using more muscle mass (pulling up).

BUT just try this experiment. Put you're bike on the turbo and try to hold say 275W whilst pedaling smoothly just pushing on the pedals in you're normal manner. Then try to hold 275W whilst pedaling in "perfect circles" and you will probably see that it a good bit harder to maintain that power output when using this technique and you will not be able to last as long.

BTW. If you do not have a powermeter it is VERY hard to judge if you are producing more or less power by pedaling in "perfect circles". I would say with a good level of confidence that you're case is a classic example of this. If you do not have a PM or have one and not know how to use it properly then you are unqualified to comment on this issue IMO.

You MUST realize that using more muscle mass does NOT always mean more power.

Just trust Alex Simmons, he understands these things, knows what he is talking about and is a good coach - no need to argue with him.

I agree with what you are saying (in that I think technique, circles etc is bit of a red herring.) but I'd go further, I don't think anyone is really qualified on this issue. There was a big thread on the timetrial forum about this and imo there were more questions than answers relating to the one (and only one??) big study on pedalling technique. You may have more information to share?

and I think Alex's contribution on this forum and others is great but I'm sure he'd agree that we should NOT just accept what he says and not argue with him, otherwise he could become another myth maker.

DomPro

What about those eliptical shaped chainrings to even out power distribution. Q-rings I think they're called. There is an ongoing 'discussion' about them in the Commuting section http://www.bikeradar.com/road/forums/vi ... start=1100.

DaveyL

I may have asked ths specifically to Alex before, but can you use WKO+ and quadrant analysis to look at your pedal stroke out on the road vs on the turbo, to get a feel for how different the inertial load is between the two?