Increase cadence

DoubleTop

How do you go about increasing your cadence? After a recent ride in a group I was told I should try and increase it.

My issues:
I can't improve on something I can't measure?
I need a new cycle computer with cadence rate monitor then, but I have a Polar HRM, I would like a GPS system something like a Garmin to track my overall ride. Is there a one stop answer something that will give me the GPS, with HRM & cadence rate at that point of the ride?

What is the ideal rate? is it 60 to 80 or 80 to 100 - I have no ideal. How do you workout whats right for you?

Then when I can measure it what training can I do to achieve a better rate and will this higher cadence rate make me go faster in the end?

Cheers
DT

Bronzie

DoubleTop wrote:

Is there a one stop answer something that will give me the GPS, with HRM & cadence rate at that point of the ride?

Garmin Edge 705 + wireless cadence sensor

DoubleTop wrote:

What is the ideal rate?

There is no such thing - just ride at what feels "right" for you. It could be that compared to your ride partners you are pedalling slower / using slightly larger gears but it's irrelevant if you can keep up with them.

DoubleTop wrote:

will this higher cadence rate make me go faster in the end?

No - not unless you train to increase your power output at the same time

GavH

Garmin 705 will do the lot for you. You should be able to fit a Cadence sensor to your Polar though depending on the model. I got one for my CS600 and found my average cadence was below 70 so i simply made a concerted effort to keep it above 80 now when i'm out. Selecting the right gear to spin at your target cadence is, i think, half the battle. The other half as you rightly point out lies in being able to measure cadence in the first place!

mclarent

I have a 305 - 705 does the job, but you have to pay extra for the maps, so if you don't need em (or can't justify the cost) get a 305 IMHO

jthef

I have the 705 and it good as you can program a cadence test in it to use on a commute etc to help you speed your cadence up.
Also there is an alarm you can set that tells you when your cadence is lower than you have set.

cougie

A simpler option would be to use lower gears - and try and match your cadence to your clubmates. Its what we did in the olden days.

Its just a thought - but it'd save you £240....

(Cateye Strada does cadence too - a lot cheaper)

Bhima

I've never had a cadence monitor, but can know what my cadence is through experience.

90 RPM is 1 and a half revolutions per second, or 3 pushes on the pedals per second - Left, Right, Left or Right, Left, Right. When I first started trying to get a solid cadence, i'd look at the seconds go on my computer and try to get that rhythm going. I'd also listen to music around 90BPM or 170BPM and match the pedalling to that - after a bit it's just second nature and you can tell what cadence you're doing.

As for your ideal cadence - just experiment a bit and see what works. I always thought 90RPM was my optimum cadence but recently, it's been going up to around 100 and even to 110ish and I can definately get more power down... So your ideal cadence is not necessarily the one you feel most comfortable with - 100 was never as comfortable for me as 90 was, but it is now, because i've been experimenting with it more and more recently.

pmac1893

A simpler option would be to use lower gears - and try and match your cadence to your clubmates. Its what we did in the olden days.

Only problem with this strategy is what if your clubmates are trying to match your cadence?..hmmm

Bronzie

As an aside to this discussion, did anyone see the Fred Grappe interview (Francais de Jeux's coach) in a recent ProCycling.

His advice on cadence went something like (haven't got mag to hand to check so apols for inaccuracies):
<80 recovery and any time in race when pace if off
90ish "normal cadence"
100ish fast pace and responding to attacks
110+ allout attacks
Dropping cadence by 5rpm in the same ranges on climbs.

Not saying I agree with him, but it does tend to be what happens when I'm racing, so maybe just a natural thing?

thiscocks

pmac1893 wrote:

A simpler option would be to use lower gears - and try and match your cadence to your clubmates. Its what we did in the olden days.

Only problem with this strategy is what if your clubmates are trying to match your cadence?..hmmm

Depends if you want to follow the crowd or not! personally I prefer to be different... 60-70RPM all the way!

cougie

Your choice entirely - but I cant help but think that a higher cadence is better for you.

Watch novices on charity rides and they struggle along at 60rpm or so.
Then watch racers smoothly riding at 90 rpm.

I know what I prefer.

Bhima

Bronzie wrote:

Dropping cadence by 5rpm in the same ranges on climbs.

Interesting... I tend to up the cadence massively on hills (unless off the saddle)... :? Everyone's different though, eh.

mclarent

Guess I'd go with what Fred Grappe said, I try and ride in the 90-100 range on training rides, and particularly try and keep a high cadence on seated hill climbs. I don't think you should worry about it particularly though unless you find yourself running out of gears, needing to respond to changes in pace quickly (e.g. attacks) or need leg speed for (e.g.) climbing or sprinting.

BTW, easy (free) way to estimate your cadence, time yourself for six seconds whilst counting pedal strokes, multiply the result by 10.

Bronzie

Here's what Grappe actually said..........

Work on your pedalling technique and economy
It's necessary to be as economical as possible. You need to have a good cadence in relation to the terrain. For example, if you're on a climb, you shouldn't push too high a gear - you need to keep some power in reserve.
It's not about having a high cadence all the time. At moments when the race isn't going too fast, when you're riding in the bunch, you definitely don't want a high cadence because too much unnescessary movement will tire you out. It's about adapting your cadence to the intensity of effort required. The more the race speeds up and your power increases, the more you need to increase your cadence. That's the rule.

The following guide is relevant to all riders on the flat, give ot take 5rpm. On climbs, drop around 5rpm:
60rpm - easy
80rpm - medium effort
90rpm - sustained effort
100rpm - lactate threshold effort
105rpm - all out PMI level 10 effort

You need to have very good muscular co-ordination for a high cadence, as well as a supple ankle. Training on a track bike is a very good way to improve this.
Finally, you also need to be able to stand on the pedals. If you ride up the hills seated, you use more energy, and your muscles are wasted by the time you reach the top and need to use them again for the descent. If you alternate however, your muscles will be in a much better state at the end of the climb. You need to be able to ride for at least three or four minutes without sitting down. If you can't manage it for more than a minute at a time, this is something you need to work on.

jibberjim

Bronzie wrote:

Here's what Grappe actually said..........

... Finally, you also need to be able to stand on the pedals. If you ride up the hills seated, you use more energy, and your muscles are wasted by the time you reach the top and need to use them again for the descent.....

Any other references for this - you use more energy cycling up hill seated? Certainly it doesn't match my personal experience - you get more force cycling up standing, but you have to put in extra effort - that may be my poor standing technique though.

Looking around:
CONCLUSION: Gradient or body position appears to have a negligible effect on external efficiency in field-based high-intensity cycling exercise.

Although this one, does sort of back it up
Thus, in general, cyclists may choose either the standing or seated position for maximization of performance at a submaximal intensity of 86% of Wmax, while the standing position should be used at intensities above 94% of Wmax and approaching 165% of Wmax.

So I guess it really depends how close to maximum you're going to have to be to get up the hills.

itboffin

I used to push a big gear at 80rpm and just drop sprockets for extra speed until my knees said no more, higher RPM made me feel sick and very tired, then I built myself a single speed bike and slowly started to lower my gear inch whilst travelling the same distance/speed - its taken a while but now I run a low gear and can happily ride at 20mph which is roughly 100RPM i'm more comfortable at 90-100RPM with the odd burst above 130RPM

Next step will be to increase my gear inch and keep the same avg. RPM, single speed is a great training tool.

osucowboytc

Contrary to popular belief, sometimes what "feels" best, is not necessarily best. When I first started cycling, my cadence was around 60 rpm. I was able to keep up easily at the beginning of rides, but found myself struggling at the end. Then I got a cadence computer (a must) and upped my cadence to 80-100 (usually more around 90-95). Just this small adjustment moved me from the back of the pack to way in front of the pack by the time we got to the end.

There is some degree of personal riding style involved in the decision of just how high your cadence should be, but if you ask any accomplished rider, they will tell you that 60 is way to low unless you are on the rivet on a steep climb and just can't go any faster. For the first couple weeks, you may feel like your legs are going faster than your wheels and that you are easily out of breath. However, if you can last past that and begin to let your body adjust, I think you will be in for a pleasant surprise!

Oceanblue

very very interesting thread for a complete beginner like myself - thanks folks... I recently discovered cadence when my knees started to complain and this forum guided me in the direction of it.

Jeff Jones

DoubleTop wrote:

How do you go about increasing your cadence? After a recent ride in a group I was told I should try and increase it.

Use a lower gear than you normally would. You shouldn't need a computer to tell you this.

If you're getting dropped by the group it's probably to do with your fitness rather than your cadence. If not, what's the problem?

Shezzer

A higher cadence usually requires training ... for most people it just doesn't feel right initially. However for many riders there can be some fairly major benefits of upping your cadence to the 95-110 range most notably (1) your body recruits more slow twitch and therefore saves the fast twitch for sprints/hills etc (2) reduced load on your knees can help you avoid injury.

You can train effectively without a cadence sensor but you really do have to concentrate ... if you stop concentrating then your cadence can easily drop, particularly at the end of harder rides.

You can get some fairly cheap cycle computers that have cadence sensors (hate to say it but try Halfords). For the last year I've used a Garmin Firerunner 305 with a cadence sensor and it works great. You programme the cadence range that you want to stick to and it'll beep if you go out of that range ... so you can stop concentrating and let the 305 do it for you. I've recently bought an Edge 705 and was pleased to see the my old cadence sensor works perfectly with it.

I spent a few months last year doing cadence drills on my turbo trainer a couple of times a week and it definitely helped me adapt to holding a higher cadence (95 - 105 on most rides now). The advantage of using a turbo is that you can focus on the cadence and how it 'feels' when you're in the right range.

A triathlete friend of mine gave me some cadence drills and I'd be happy to share them with you (in Excel format) if you planned to do some turbo cadence sessions.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Shezzer wrote:

A higher cadence usually requires training ... for most people it just doesn't feel right initially. However for many riders there can be some fairly major benefits of upping your cadence to the 95-110 range most notably (1) your body recruits more slow twitch and therefore saves the fast twitch for sprints/hills etc (2) reduced load on your knees can help you avoid injury.

(1) is not correct and is one of those myths of cycle training. Recruitment of muscle fibre types is much more a function of power (the combination of muscle contraction speed and force) rather than cadence (contraction speed) alone. Also, fast twich fibres fatigue very quickly, so if you were actually using them to any great degree when pedalling along (aerobically) with a slow cadence, then your pedalling would likely fatigue far more quickly than it actually does.

While (2) is true (i.e. reducing load will help reduce chance of injury), the forces involved in low cadence (aerobic) pedalling are still pretty low, so if your knees are hurting from such efforts, that's more likely to do with poor positioning on bike and/or a pre-existing injury.

Shezzer

Alex_S

Ok I made an assumption that a lower cadence = pushing harder on the pedals ... to maintain the same speed. Maybe I should have made this assumtion clear.

Re point 2 I can speak from personal experience that a higher cadence with lower power definitely reduces load on the knees. After months of knee pain my physio (a middle and long distance triathlete so no stranger to bikes) told me to up my cadence and reduce the power. This I did on my training bike with no change of set up and ... the post-ride knee pain went within a couple of weeks.

Either way, it's very easy to determine whether a higher cadence is suitable for you. Just practice until you can comfortably maintain a higher cadence and then do 2 rides (1) spinning and (2) pushing a bigger gear more slowly. At the end of each ride see which one leaves you feeling fresher.

redddraggon

Shezzer wrote:

my physio told me to up my cadence and reduce the power

Well reducing the power is a backwards step - makes you go slower......

Shezzer

redddraggon wrote:

Shezzer wrote:

my physio told me to up my cadence and reduce the power

Well reducing the power is a backwards step - makes you go slower......

Pedals are turning quicker to compensate. My times didn't drop at all ... and I felt a LOT fresher when I transitioned to the run (triathlete).

redddraggon

Shezzer wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Shezzer wrote:

my physio told me to up my cadence and reduce the power

Well reducing the power is a backwards step - makes you go slower......

Pedals are turning quicker to compensate. My times didn't drop at all ... and I felt a LOT fresher when I transitioned to the run (triathlete).

If you decrease power you go slower - FACT

Shezzer

I guess you're right in that higher power equates to higher speed. However, I reckon that for the same speed it's easier to spin than to push a big gear and honestly believe you're more likely to avoid injury that way. Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm gonna stick to spinning.

warrior4life

last year i raced cat 4 and i didnt do very well, i pushed a huge bigth a slow cadence and i really struggled on climbs, i was probably between 75 and 85.

Ive since purchases a cateye with cadence and now i never below 90 and i can ride stady at over 100.

It's made a massive difference, my fitness has gone up since last year and that combined with my cadence has given me the ability to hang comfortably with cat 3 and cat 2 riders... I am so looking forward to racing cat 4 again this year!

http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=wire ... uter&hl=en

A selection of wireless cadence computers from £16 upwards.

I honestly believe cadence helps,

fnegroni

This can help:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Strap the results to the handlebar and there you have it, virtual cadence sensor for a few pennies...

liversedge

Shezzer wrote:

I guess you're right in that higher power equates to higher speed. However, I reckon that for the same speed it's easier to spin than to push a big gear and honestly believe you're more likely to avoid injury that way. Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm gonna stick to spinning.

I think you are confusing power with force. power = cadence (speed) x force.

if you increase cadence you could reduce force and get the same power and therefore the same speed.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Shezzer wrote:

Alex_S

Ok I made an assumption that a lower cadence = pushing harder on the pedals ... to maintain the same speed. Maybe I should have made this assumtion clear.

Re point 2 I can speak from personal experience that a higher cadence with lower power definitely reduces load on the knees. After months of knee pain my physio (a middle and long distance triathlete so no stranger to bikes) told me to up my cadence and reduce the power. This I did on my training bike with no change of set up and ... the post-ride knee pain went within a couple of weeks.

Either way, it's very easy to determine whether a higher cadence is suitable for you. Just practice until you can comfortably maintain a higher cadence and then do 2 rides (1) spinning and (2) pushing a bigger gear more slowly. At the end of each ride see which one leaves you feeling fresher.

As has been pointed out, if you are travelling at the same speed, then your power output is the same irrespective of the cadence.

What you are trying to say (I think), is that the forces applied to the pedals at the same power (speed) are lower if you increase cadence. That part is true. and conversely the forces are higher at same power if cadence is lower.

Where it goes off the rails is then equating that to recruiting different muscle fibre types. Even at quite low cadences, the forces and velocities are still pretty low (when riding along and not sprinting) and certainly not high enough to recruit all that many fast twitch fibres.

I still say that if that's causing your knees a problem, then there is a strong possibility that your bike fit needs looking at.

Having said all that, I agree that:
- it makes sense to get towards a natural feeling cadence somewhere above 85 rpm, and above 70rpm when climbing
- as you become fitter and more powerful, you tend to pedal faster overall anyway.

As to the issue of feeling fresher with higher cadences, yes, that's often reported. But what none of these people (can) tell you is whether that's because of the higher cadence or because they produced less power as a result of gearing down.

And that's because they are focussing on something that's easy to measure (like cadence) and attributing things to it that they really shouldn't, rather than something that's important, i.e. the effort they are putting in.

It's like measuring how much money you've got by measuring the height of a stack of money bills. That's nice but if you don't know how much each bill is worth, then one stack might be higher but of much less value than another. Use the right metric for the job. In this case, cadence is the wrong metric.

manxshred

Something that has helped me in my quest to increase my cadence is working on my core strength. Having a stonger core helps stabalise everything especially at higher cadence.