Sportives entry fees

zoomcp

Following the thread on freebeeing sportives

Do people think they are too high?

I've no idea what the overheads associated with organising a sportive are; my only experience is Audax where the organisation cost is around the £2-3 per rider figure; more if you include more free food and overnight stops. And £2 insurance per rider if not covered through other organisations

I appreciate that Audax does not use waymarking; timing chips and the associated costs of online entry / website publicity etc but I'd be interested to hear what sort of costs anyone organising one needs to factor in

Please try to keep this thread from descending into a "why should I pay ripoff rates to ride on public roads" rant it's not intended as such

GavH

Whilst I don't think they are overpriced yet, I reckon they are set to become so as the sportive becomes more popular. Certainly I've heard L'Etape described as an overpriced £30 Sportive!

SBezza

They vary in price between £8 to £40+, so as a general rule you can't say they as a whole are too expensive.

To be honest, the prices set will be for a whole host of reasons, only the organisers can really say how much it actually costs.

If £30 is too expensive, go for the smaller events which are alot cheaper than this, if you are will to spend £40+ obviously you don't think it is too expensive, otherwise you wouldn't spend this money on something that is not important.

When a £40+ sportive sales out within hours, then there are an awful lot of people that obviously think it isn't too expensive.

As a guide, I am doing a race this weekend, that will cost me £20 for 30KM, so is £30 expensive for 100 miles, I think not on the whole.

zoomcp

GavH wrote:

Whilst I don't think they are overpriced yet, I reckon they are set to become so as the sportive becomes more popular. Certainly I've heard L'Etape described as an overpriced £30 Sportive!

L'Etape is a bit different; it's a worldwide phenomenon with a similar level of demand, unless you happen to live in France with a good postal service I believe you have virtually no chance of getting in and are stuck with going through a commercial company who buy up spaces and can pretty much charge what they like (as also happened with the 2007 British Cyclosportive after the places all sold out within a day; that was the only sportive I've ever done in the UK and I it wasn't worth the entry fee but was an unmissable opportunity)

pneumatic

There is a difference between cost and price (i.e. how much money the organiser needs to break even as opposed to how much the punter is prepared to pay to be a part of the experience).

Volunteer and enthusiast-organised events (like Audax) will just aim to cover their outlay; commercial operators (like IMG) are playing the market for this kind of thing.

With the explosion of interest in cycling currently underway, there is money to be made from those of us who want to have the experience of group riding over challenging terrain (and/or distances) as part of an organised event (it is a way of living out our pro-racing fantasies).

Personally, I have been happy to pay 50 quid to IMG for the chance to go out an play on closed roads in the Etape Caledonia. Previously, I gave at least that much to the organisers of the Edinburgh to St Andrews and the Pedal for Scotland events as charitable donations.

By comparison, when I go to watch football with my son, tickets are anything between 30 and 60 quid each, and we don't even get to kick a ball!

redddraggon

pneumatic wrote:

Personally, I have been happy to pay 50 quid to IMG for the chance to go out an play on closed roads in the Etape Caledonia.

50 quid is a bargain to ride on closed roads, especially when you compare the cost to other sportives which are nearly the same price and are on open roads.

Closed road sportives are the only ones at the moment that I'd ever consider riding - all the others just feel like expensive club runs....

andy_wrx

There is a wide variance in what I'd call 'value for money', i.e. what you get for your £20-£30

Some sportives which are the same price have rather better foodstops than others, including sometimes even a hot meal at the end, so they're better value.

Some give you a t-shirt and some try to charge you another £10 for one (not that I want a t-shirt - I'd rather have £3 off the price and go without...).

Similarly I don't want a medal or stickers, or a disco playing at the finish or bouncy castles for the kids, so all these just add to the cost but add no value to me.

But I would expect decent signage and car parking and an emergency phone number/broom wagon 'just in case'.

Chip timing apparently costs £1200-£1500, and that's certainly something I can do without.
The Polka Dot organisers can get results with a manual paper system and a stopwatch and I really am not bothered about my time accurate to the second.
- although Peter Harrison of the Northern Rock Cyclone says he wants it as an organiser as a system to check whether people finished or are stranded out on the course.

Chubby on a compact

If you don't want to pay then don't play. Audaxes are cheap so if you don't want to pay for sportives you can always give them a try.

BigG67

Chubby on a compact wrote:

If you don't want to pay then don't play. Audaxes are cheap so if you don't want to pay for sportives you can always give them a try.

I agree, free market forces will take care of it. Also a rubbish experience at £10 will kill an event even quicker than too high a price.

The only risk in a free market is when there's lack of competition for a commodity or service but given a) a similar experience can be enjoyed free b) the nature of cycling clubs are such that the <£10 events will always exist c) cycling isn't a commodity or serives there is no risk in the IMG style commercial events.

Indeed given they've gone from 800 to 1600 to 3000+ riders in 3 Etape Caledonia events they must be doing something right.

Right product/right price/right availability will do it most times.

Tom Butcher

Yes I think they are starting to get over priced - I set myself a limit of £25 and I wouldn't go over that unless there was something special like closed roads to justify the cost. I think the Fred Whitton was £10 when I first did it - possibly £15 but certainly no more than that. Yes some other activities like football are overpriced too - one reason I watch 2-3 games a year instead of the 30 odd I used to go to.

I suppose it depends what you want from a sportive though. I treat them like a nice hard day out on the bike - new roads, good scenery, group to ride with - but I don't set too much store by the speed I complete them or train specifically for them as I would with something like a marathon. I suppose if they were the focus of my cycling year then £30 -£40 would seem reasonable.

pneumatic

The good thing about cycling (unlike Golf, for example) is that you can still have a really good day out over the best terrain either on your own or with a few mates without paying anyone. Event riding needs to add something extra to that pleasure: marshalling, competition, atmosphere, cameraderie, food stops, festivity; and that is what you pay for.

nwallace

pneumatic wrote:

By comparison, when I go to watch football with my son, tickets are anything between 30 and 60 quid each, and we don't even get to kick a ball!

It's not SPL then?


Picked up a leaflet for "Highland 100" in the Kenmore hotel the other day, 3 routes, open roads.

Bronze: Taymouth Estate, Over the Schehallion Road, up Glen Lyon, round loch Lyon and then over to Killin via the Hydro board road. 53 Miles
Silver: Up to Loch Rannoch then back over the hills through the forest to Geln Lyon and the Bronze route 65 Miles
Gold: As silver but a lap of Loch Rannoch : 82 miles

Price £100 per team(?) and minimum sponsorship of £400 per person in the team

Seems a bit steep to me

Booboocp

As the organiser of the White Rose Challenge I've posted a response to this in the freeloaders thread.

Take a look at it, because anyone who thinks we are profiteering with an entry fee of £25 is living in cloud cuckoo land.

zoomcp

Booboocp wrote:

As the organiser of the White Rose Challenge I've posted a response to this in the freeloaders thread.

Take a look at it, because anyone who thinks we are profiteering with an entry fee of £25 is living in cloud cuckoo land.

thanks for those figures Booboo; that was exactly the sort of information I was looking for; and no the WRC does not seem expensive in that light.

I'll definitely stick with a village hall / sandwiches tea / squash and cakes (which French sportives manage with perfectly BTW) a limit on numbers and no ambulances for my little Audax event

Philip Whiteman

I was interested to spot this thread. I intend to develop a ranked table on events related to cost.

At some stage over the next few weeks, I intend to develop a develop a table that ranks all the sportives in order of cost. The figures will be rather basic, indicating the total cost and cost per kilometre, total number of entrees allowed and whether it is a charity event or not. The ranking is intended to name and shame the £45 charlatans. However, I do appreciate that the table will not be able to indicate gold tap events that lay on pre-event pasta parties, outriders, etc, etc. So it will not be perfect.

In answer to your earlier question, yes, some audaxes are far too expensive. I entered the Mad March Hare last month, it was a great event and cost just £8. So yar boo sucks to people who say that it cannot be done any cheaper!

Mettan

Looking at this years Sportives - yes, they've become too costly - a rider might want to do 5 or 6 events over the summer - the cost £125- £150 quid - bit pricey, to say the least.

£15 - £20 a Sportive sounds about right.

We'll soon be seeing £30-£40 a Sportive commonplace.

Blonde

But when we go the Sportive, how many people are sat on bikes that cost £2000+ with componentry/wheels at a similar price. They'll be wearing clothing/shoes by Assos/Rapha/Sidi and bringing their bikes in Audis/BMWs/Volvo's etc. I know I'm generalising but there is a lot of money out there and someone wants some of it. If you go to see a band at the O2 or MEN arena, Ticketmaster will take £6 or £7 per ticket plus postage on top of your ticket-price and you'll still get charged for parking your car etc. The organisers of Sportives whether a charity or a business want to make some money so they charge what they think the market will bear. Are Euro sportives cheaper or equal in price? When we did the 'Ride of the Falling Leaves' in Como last year, the cost was 40 euros each plus a small amount for the timer. But the event was policed all the way around, Como centre closed off and a pasta party/equipment exhibition included. This event was sponsored by the Gazzetta, the pink Italian sports paper.

tabmaster

Both the Tour of Flanders and Paris Roubaix sportives (260km dstances) were only 20 euros a pop. Plenty of food and drink at the controls, well organised with police stopping traffic too.
Did the Test Valley Tour the w/end after PRX last year (my first and only Uk sportive) and that cost me £18 EoL. Very dissappointed with that one... Very dilute Torq drink and one bar for the entry fee - ppl on the controls who clearly had other place they would rather be.
If our continental counterparts can manage those events soooo well, why is it that Uk operators get away with ripping ppl off?
In fact, one might consider that given the bikes that some of the riders are on, and the Assos/Rapha kit (some of the Rapha stuff is Nalini btw) that £30 is not a lot to charge for entry. IMHO, join a club, go on club runs, buy the club kit (mine is by Santini), make some friends... not be part of what some percieve to be the w/end warrior/Assos brigade.
I keep fit enough to race that way - a diet of TT's and evening road races (that cost a lot less than Sportive entries too).
I might be wrong, but I see sportives as the masses being fleeced. It is bums on saddles in numbers though, which can only be a good thing.

Paul.

Philip Whiteman

I am slowly compiling a ranked league table events based on cost per kilometre. The intention is show variability in pricing structures although I appreciate that this will not reveal add on benefits provided by organisers. The eventual results will be shown here or on another cycling message board.

stjohnswell

Philip Whiteman wrote:

I am slowly compiling a ranked league table events based on cost per kilometre. The intention is show variability in pricing structures although I appreciate that this will not reveal add on benefits provided by organisers. The eventual results will be shown here or on another cycling message board.

Don't you need to factor in the number of participants?

:?

bobtbuilder

I set myself a limit of £25 and I wouldn't go over that unless there was something special like closed roads to justify the cost.

+1 for this. I don't want a fancy timer, roads are free, so that leaves food, drink & marshalling. £25 x 500 entrants = £12,500 which would seem to be enough to cover this?

Mettan

bobtbuilder wrote:

+1 for this. I don't want a fancy timer, roads are free, so that leaves food, drink & marshalling. £25 x 500 entrants = £12,500 which would seem to be enough to cover this?

Yes, agreed on the money angle - on a related theme, some Sportives are now getting ~ 1500 participants at £25 an entry = £ 37500 - nearly Fourty-thousand quid - alot of money - nothing wrong with making money, of course, but they could atleast be more frank about it. With the way prices are going, one can forsee lower-income earners increasingly being priced-out of doing multiple-Sportives throughout the summer (travel/petrol/entry fees etc) - which is a bit sad really. Discounts for multiple Sportives from the same organizer?? - might be an idea. Not sure if anyone's already doing this.

tabmaster

For me at least, I think I get better value by racing - a diet of TT races which have official timing that make me fitter fo road race. Now those are exhilarating!
Okay, my 10 mile TT last night was over in a flash but I ddi a pb for the season and it only cost me £2 and wasnt a million miles away from home either.
Each to their own though, I suppose.

pprince

Been reading the freebie and this thread and seems to me there is some resentment of organisers charging what they charge and apparently not been open about where the money goes

I don't mind breaking the mould and telling you where my money went for my sportive (Mad March Hare, March 1st).

ok, not a full blown one but I can tell you the feedback was excellent and some couldn't believe what they got for there money (£8 entry fee). In fact an organiser of a certain 1500+ rider sportive down south commented how I could have charged £15 to give you some idea.

So here goes

Income
Entries 186 x £8 = £1488 income (originally 150 max limit but took extra because of drop outs and a reserve list I operated)

Expenses
HQ - £75
Paypal fee per entry = 186 x £0.47 = 87.42
Food/Water = £450 approx (Bottled water, flapjacks, bananas, bacon, baps, tea, coffee sugar. I bought way too much of everything too! Twice as much as I probably needed actually)
Insurance = CTC Insurance @ £60 (upto 200 riders)
Taking my helpers out for a thank you curry = £240
Signage = 100 signs @ £1.50 = £150

Total Expense = £1062.42

Profit for me = £425.58 for approx 3 days hard work (in total), which I thought was fair

not a mega return for me but I, my helpers and the riders were happy so nuff said.
I could have just said thank you to my team and pocketed an extra £240 but I appreciated their help and wanted to show how much.

I've thought about scaling it up and I'm convinced some organisers do profiteer from events, ruthlessly in some cases but as long as people pay why should they charge any less? Its simple supply and demand people.

I think, I've proved a point and gained some respect for doing what I did for the price and I will promote again and again in the same vein. Keep it simple, keep it cheap.

In todays times of recession and the credit crunch, I think my model has its place. Fancy audax, poor-mans sportive, call it what you like, I don't really care. I'm doing it for me because I enjoy organising and getting the praise and the riders do it because they get great value for money.

I hope that generates some positive debate now.

regards

Paul Prince
Sportive Organiser with a big gob

nickwill

bobtbuilder wrote:

I set myself a limit of £25 and I wouldn't go over that unless there was something special like closed roads to justify the cost.

+1 for this. I don't want a fancy timer, roads are free, so that leaves food, drink & marshalling. £25 x 500 entrants = £12,500 which would seem to be enough to cover this?

But some people do want the electronic timing, and a large event is made much easier to manage if that is in place. In addition organisers often have to hire buildings for the start/ finish and in some cases for checkpoints. There are also costs involved in signage and petrol costs for those who are putting out the signs. Large events also generate administrative costs.
Its an open market out there. There is room for large scale , high infrastructure sportives, low key cheaper sportives, and audax. It is up to the cyclists to make their choices.
If someone wants to make some money from organising an event, good luck to them, noone is forcing people to sign up. I think we should all be grateful that people are willing to organise these events, whatever their format or cost. Without them there wouldn't be a sportive scene for us all to enjoy and argue over.

bobtbuilder

Paul Prince
Sportive Organiser with a big gob

Thank you Paul for 'fessing up to your organisational costs.

If someone wants to make some money from organising an event, good luck to them, noone is forcing people to sign up.

My objection is not to someone making some money out of it. As Paul's breakdown showed, he took a very modest £425 for 3 days bloody hard work. It's a shame that some people want to milk it for all it's worth, like the £30+ sportives being offered, which according to this thread have put some people off, or has caused them to ride less sportives than they would have liked.

If Paul's costs are indicative of organisational costs, then anything over and above this, with the exception of timing is pure profit.

pprince

bobtbuilder wrote:

Paul Prince
Sportive Organiser with a big gob

Thank you Paul for 'fessing up to your organisational costs.

If someone wants to make some money from organising an event, good luck to them, noone is forcing people to sign up.

My objection is not to someone making some money out of it. As Paul's breakdown showed, he took a very modest £425 for 3 days bloody hard work. It's a shame that some people want to milk it for all it's worth, like the £30+ sportives being offered, which according to this thread have put some people off, or has caused them to ride less sportives than they would have liked.

If Paul's costs are indicative of organisational costs, then anything over and above this, with the exception of timing is pure profit.

I'd just like to pint out there is a difference between a 200 rider sportive and a 1000 rider sportive.
As soon as you start getting big, you need vastly more food, bigger HQ and logistically their are costs associated with transport etc aswell
my course was researched so I had to sign as little as possible for corners and junctions
complicated (longer) courses can be a day+ job in itself, more if you do multiple routes

so don't just scale up my costs x 5, bigger events bring in additional challenges too

swagman

Rip off Britain comes to mind.

alfablue

swagman wrote:

Rip off Britain comes to mind.

Something for nothing Britain comes to mind.

Nothing wrong with a profit - why should organisers do it for love? I mean, why don't bike shops sell bikes at cost price???

There are risks involved - some costs need to be paid up front before entrance fees come in.

If the price is too high then the events won't have entrants - it looks like they are generally heavily subscribed, so the price must be within what the market can bear (and thus defines value).

If you want a cheaper one, organise it yourself? Then give up after the first attempt as too much hassle for the money.

Philip Whiteman

I welcome Paul's honesty with regard to his sportive. It was an excellent event and well worth every penny. Plus Paul forgot to mention the time he took out to organise a reccie ride. I look forward to your next tantalising event.

Incidentally, I have started to wear my anorak again by analysing fees set by organisers to establish how frequent £30 events actually are. My figures are based upon total cost and cost per rider/km. At the moment, figures are averaging near £15pp - so not as much as you may think. When the data entry is complete and I have analysed the results, I shall make them publicly available.

bobh

Sportive Organisers tend to fall into three categories; Those who promote for the sheer "fun" of it. Those like us who re-cycle profits into supporting other activity to benefit the sport or thirdly the entrepeneur who is obviously looking to make money out of it.

By my reckoning there is a place and a justification for all three.

The entrepeneur in search for profit will be looking to promote large showpiece events of a scale to match the monuments on the continent. To take on such events the advance planning is a massive task and there is a critical cash flow requirement that calls for enough "head room" in the entry fee to meet that need. Having delivered Sportives for up to 1000 riders I can only take my hat off to those Organisers who want to take it to the next level, repect is due to them not a whinge about "ripping people off"

Our event focus is now on the 500 rider entry range with what we see as a niche event rather than an International Monument. By the time we have paid for the venue, equipped three routing teams with vans and lodgings and stocked the feed stations we'll probably make enough on the event to send a Yorkshire team of Youth riders to a National event. Get your entries in and we might just make enough to be able to send them to a Youth Tour in Holland.

Bob Howden
Ryedale Rumble
www.ryedalerumble.co.uk