So when you're off the saddle and putting the hammer down...

Bhima
Bhima Posts: 2,145
edited March 2009 in Training, fitness and health
...on the drops and really sprinting AKA "standing up"...

Are you using different muscles? Or are you using the same muscles but pumping them harder and in a different way?

Recently, i've rarely been getting off the saddle (even when sprinting!) and did it for the first time for ages the other day up a hill but got REALLY tired when I sat back down again to power over the peak of the climb. I can't tell if i'm using different muscles for this or not because "the burn" feels like it's on the same place in my legs...

Should I do specific training out of the saddle as well as on the saddle? What do you do? I've got into the habit of just staying on the saddle for hours, even on the hardest hills, without ever standing up.

Comments

  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,715
    Same muscles, but in different proportions.

    Climbing in the saddle uses the thighs obviously, but also the calves, as you will probably find yourself 'ankling' to generate more power. I believe the lower back muscles are brought into play more as well, but don't quote me on that one.

    Climbing out of the saddle uses the calves less as the ankles are more locked in position, but the thighs and core muscles more as they're required to support your weight in addition to putting the power down.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Sprinting requires more use of upper body muscles as that helps provide the additional leverage
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  • mclarent
    mclarent Posts: 784
    I've had the same experience - been training to do seated climbs for the last few months, raced at the weekend and really felt the burn when attacking the climb. consequently, I did some hills standing on Sunday, and I found I feel it more at the tops of my thighs when climbing out of the saddle, probably the top third most of all?

    At a guess, I would say that I'm using the bottom (or front when sitting) of my thighs more when seated, and the top (or back) when standing.

    Plus what everyone else said as well... :wink:
    "And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
    - eccolafilosofiadelpedale
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    every so often its a good idea just to knock it down a couple of gears and ride out of the saddle for a while during a ride - partly because it trains a slightly different combination of muscles and partly because it also gives your ar$e a rest....
  • Bhima
    Bhima Posts: 2,145
    softlad wrote:
    it trains a slightly different combination of muscles

    Yes, I thought so. :) I guess this is why I always die on hills if I stand up - I never stand up so the muscles don't get trained enough!
  • dave milne
    dave milne Posts: 703
    I try to mix it up a bit more now as it's supposed to leave you fresher. Don't know how true that is.
  • sportbilly1976
    sportbilly1976 Posts: 524
    well my current practise is to use a MTB on my commute and to stand on some of the climbs and to keep it in a relatively high gear (so no easy peddaling)...

    ...the when I come to using the road bike I feel both the benefit from the slicker tryes and weight difference but i also have some extra power on climbs from being either seated or out of the saddle.

    effectively work the muscles harder most days than truly necessary to get the benefit on club rides / sportives.
  • ARob
    ARob Posts: 143
    i think that out of the saddle is less efficient - but there is more power. pretty much the same muscles but working harder. however since you get up the hill slightly quicker not working for so long. but overall it takes more out of the tank so use tactically or for strength training.

    obviously the faster you go the greater the drop in efficiency since standing increases wind resistance. hence at speeds over say 8 -10mph out of the saddle is going to hurt..
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    ARob wrote:
    obviously the faster you go the greater the drop in efficiency since standing increases wind resistance. hence at speeds over say 8 -10mph out of the saddle is going to hurt..

    Use the drops and keep your arms bent while standing then.
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  • ARob
    ARob Posts: 143
    redddraggon wrote:
    ARob wrote:
    obviously the faster you go the greater the drop in efficiency since standing increases wind resistance. hence at speeds over say 8 -10mph out of the saddle is going to hurt..

    Use the drops and keep your arms bent while standing then.

    that sounds logical but part of the benefit of standing is to ease the flow of air to the lungs. keeping stright is part of the point. but as you say this is a good tactic if you want the 'power boost' but at speed, e.g. a sprint. personally i'm not going at 15-25 moh+ up hills...
  • mclarent
    mclarent Posts: 784
    you also get a freebie when standing as your weight takes care of the downstroke. Well, mine does anyway... I'm no Contador... :wink:
    "And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
    - eccolafilosofiadelpedale
  • Shezzer
    Shezzer Posts: 229
    I try and stay seated as long as possible while maintaining a decent cadence. I only get out of the saddle to alleviate the lactic build up that invariably strikes. I've measured my pace and HR up a long hill using different techniques and staying seated with an upright torso is by far the most efficient ... I don't know why but guess it's cos you can generate power throughout more of the pedal revolution while seated than you can when standing. Also, I guess your legs aren't supporting your body weight either.

    I just wish I was fit enough to stay in the saddle all the way up hills but the painful truth is I aint. :cry:
  • galaxyboy
    galaxyboy Posts: 168
    I went on a ride with a group today and noticed that they were leaving me well behind on the hills. They were standing (some of them in in large cog) and i was sitting and dropping my gears as normal, i think it is down to fitness/strength/technique - that's why i was at the back.
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,064
    Does anyone else have pain in the lower back when out of the saddle? such a bitch because I enjoy a full on standing stomp up the hills :(
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  • Bhima
    Bhima Posts: 2,145
    Sometimes, the gradient is so steep that you're forced to get up - not because of your fitness, but because you're on the lowest possible gear and you're pedalling too slow - you need to stand up to keep going!
  • Bhima
    Bhima Posts: 2,145
    itboffin wrote:
    Does anyone else have pain in the lower back when out of the saddle? such a ***** because I enjoy a full on standing stomp up the hills :(

    Used to get it when I bent over too far forward. Try keeping your back straight - by centering your weight over the pedals and stretching your arms out fully - look at Alberto Contador - he's almost vertical!

    DV484987.jpg

    DV484986.jpg
  • eh
    eh Posts: 4,854
    I just wish I was fit enough to stay in the saddle all the way up hills but the painful truth is I aint.

    Fitness has nothing to do with it, eveyone should be able to climb out of the saddle if required as it is a valuable tool for attacking if racing or just varying position when out riding.

    It really is hard to stay with someone if you stay sitting down and they attack aggressivly out of the saddle.
  • DomPro
    DomPro Posts: 321
    Judging by the positions used by these cyclists, theres no proper sprint position. It looks as though the more of your body that is utilised, the faster your sprint!

    U23-sprint-1.jpg

    As you can see, the guy in the bottom right is doing it all wrong.
    Shazam !!
  • mclarent
    mclarent Posts: 784
    :shock: :D

    I think with sprinting, you want to be as aero as possible, but getting the power down is the main point.

    I'd like to see how many others he cleaned out with that inopportune fall!
    "And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
    - eccolafilosofiadelpedale
  • Bhima
    Bhima Posts: 2,145
    Sprinting and climbing are different. I guess the usual rules about keeping your back/arms straight/etc don't apply in a sprint, especially as it's something you do for a very short period of time and is at the end of the race, where running out of energy afterwards is not a problem. If you're climbing, however, it's best to get as comfortable as possible so you can keep going for 4/5 minutes (or 15, if you're Contador).

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