Is it bad manners to freebee a sportive?
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Would you go to the swimming baths and say, before I pay can I just have a dip in the pool just to check that its ok. If you want to experience of riding in a group organise something yourself or join a club. Most club's will let you tag along to give them a try. If everyone thought I won't bother paying I'll just tag along, organisers would lose money. Losing money would probably result in event not being run following year. No events to ride in and your back riding on your own again. I've participated in several sports and got to a reasonable level in all of them. One of them was football where we had to pay for referee's, pitches, changing rooms etc. I've got to say cyclists are some of the tightest I've ever come across. Yes they will spend hundreds and in some cases thousands on equipment and then winge about paying £20 - £30 to ride an event. Come on guys if you don't want to pay then don't play.0
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In France again they have a different mentality; for a start their events are enormous; with the exception of L'Etape I don't think any fill up. And if you don't have a number they won't let you onto the course, no idea if they have a legal right to do so that's just the way it is and everyone respects it.
Audaxes are very rarely pirated; for a start if you haven't entered you're unlikely to have a route sheet; and the entry fees are so ridiculously cheap it's often cheaper to enter than make youe own arrangements for food and drink around the route. And IMO the route sheet is part of the fun; I've often struck up happy riding partnerships by conversing with other riders about where the next turn is; plus it gives you a chance to fiddle about with a GPS.
There seems to be some resentment of sportive organisers; as if they are ripping all us cyclists off so we have every right to snub their entry fee and just ride the course. If they were more open about where the money went there might be less of this feeling? does it really cost £2-3000 to stage a sportive?0 -
redddraggon wrote:I've never even had a driving lesson....
ARAF! That means youve never had the pleasure of getting serious road rage at a group of foreign cyclists in wales! Just think, you would be able to mow them all down and they would never return to you precious local roads.0 -
redddraggon wrote:Anyone not local is a foreigner......so someone from Wrexham is a foreigner.....it's not a derogatory term.
as a matter of interest, how far does your 'locale' extend..?? 5 miles, 10 miles..? What about someone who was born locally, but now lives outside of your 'borders' - are they foreigners too..?
Another question - how are these foreigners recognised - is there some kind of badge that identifies them..?0 -
zoomcp wrote:
There seems to be some resentment of sportive organisers; as if they are ripping all us cyclists off so we have every right to snub their entry fee and just ride the course. If they were more open about where the money went there might be less of this feeling? does it really cost £2-3000 to stage a sportive?
There is very little resentment towards organisers...only a few on here...so don't include the vast majority as 'us'.
And its as simple as this...if you don't want to pay £20-£40 for a sportive then dont! Vote with your feet rather than whinge on here...and if you just turn up and ride the event then your just a selfish git IMO and have no regards for cycling promotion in the UK at all.....sportives have encouraged so many into cycling....just like other events....reliabilty tuns, TTs,Audaxes etc...so all should be wholely supported as at the ed of the day its getting more UK chaps on the bikes....
And in 90% of the cases (as Ive already stated) the money goes to well worthy causes...and if it goes into there own pocket then why is that a problem?....especially if they are providing a great experience for cyclists?.....
dont like it = dont do it.0 -
softlad wrote:redddraggon wrote:Anyone not local is a foreigner......so someone from Wrexham is a foreigner.....it's not a derogatory term.
as a matter of interest, how far does your 'locale' extend..?? 5 miles, 10 miles..? What about someone who was born locally, but now lives outside of your 'borders' - are they foreigners too..?
Another question - how are these foreigners recognised - is there some kind of badge that identifies them..?
...No but they just won't have sheep wool around their nether reigons.
Sorry about me.0 -
RICHYBOYcp wrote:zoomcp wrote:
There seems to be some resentment of sportive organisers; as if they are ripping all us cyclists off so we have every right to snub their entry fee and just ride the course. If they were more open about where the money went there might be less of this feeling? does it really cost £2-3000 to stage a sportive?
There is very little resentment towards organisers...only a few on here...so don't include the vast majority as 'us'.
and if it goes into there own pocket then why is that a problem?....especially if they are providing a great experience for cyclists?.....
I did put the word "some" in my post; and wasn't necessarily directing even the "some" towards anybody on here.
As an Audax organiser I'm afraid I don't buy into organisers pocketing large amounts of dosh from entry fees (if indeed they even do), most people like me do it because that's the best way to keep popular events going and we ride many other events organised by like minded people so it's only fair to put something back.0 -
Isn't this question really simple? If you happen to get mixed up in a sportive /audax route by mistake or by chance then that's fine, but if you turn up at the start (or just round the corner from the start) with the intention of riding along with everyone else to the finish (or ducking out just before the finish) then that is taking the p*ss.
It is really a question of how you view your own self importance over others, if you don't give a damn about others you won't understand, if you do then you will.0 -
There is a bit of a difference between getting mixed up by mistake and tagging along when you know there is an event taking place. Many events have shorter routes available so if your not sure how you would cope on a longer route you can always try one of the shorter routes. At the end of the day most events are around the £20 - £30 mark. So if you don't want to pay stay away. If there was a cycle race going on would you tagg along to see if you fancied racing or if there was a marathon taking place would you join in just to give it a try, no I don't think so. If you want to be a tight a**e then ride on your own.0
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It is really a question of how you view your own self importance over others, if you don't give a damn about others you won't understand, if you do then you will.
But the selfishness/self importance thing cuts both ways, doesn't it? You're saying that anyone who rides a sportive without paying is selfish, and maybe they are. But to my mind it's also rather selfish and self-important to say that because you're doing some event, other cyclists should stay away from those completely open public roads (roads which are likely to be in a particularly pleasant part of the country, and particularly popular with cyclists).
FWIW I've quite happily paid £40 for this year's FWC (and I'd pay more if I had to); I don't think they're a con at all and harbour no grudge whatsoever against their organisers. I just can't imagine that, if I were to come across them, I'd be at all bothered about someone riding the route without a little number on the front. If they're on a bike and enjoying themselves then good luck to them. I think the argument what 'if everyone freebied sportives - there'd be no sportives left' is completely specious too. Everyone knows what they are and aren't paying for when they enter a sportive, so there's obviously an awful lot of people out there (me included), that think it's worth paying to do a sportive 'officially' at current prices. So in this case the 'what if' is demonstrably never going to happen; if it was going to then surely it would have done already?0 -
Kléber wrote:People take the time to signpost the course, to get permission from the police and so much more. And no one is making money from running the event. So don't abuse the efforts made, support them.
You're right. These events don't just appear out of nowhere. People are involved in setting them up way before the start and even after it's over, there are still things to be done. Here in the states a small percentage of people always "bandit" these rides. Poor form? Yes, but hard to prevent. A lot of the rides now use colored wrist bands(if you pay) and you can't get food or water without them.
Dennis Noward0 -
There is a major difference between finding oneself sharing part of a route where a sportive is happening, and deliberately setting out to ride the sportive route on the day.
If you set out to ride the sportive without paying you are sharing in the atmosphere, signposting, cameraderie etc without contributing anything.
Yes you are within your rights to do so, but morally and ethically it seems wrong to me. I'm guessing that it is likely to be something more than a coincidence if you happen to ride the entire sportive route on the same day as the event takes place. To claim otherwise seems pretty hypocritical!
If you wish to ride the whole route, do it on another day!
As far as the police and general public are concerned if you are riding the sportive route with other sportive riders then they will regard you as a participant, and hold the organisers responsible if anything goes wrong. There are good reasons why the number of entrants is limited. By freeloading you are potentially endangering the future of such events.0 -
Whats all this "riding round with 1000 other riders?
The most I have ever managed to ride with was in the dragon and that was about 20 at one point but then did last 60 miles with one other guy, that happened twice. Almost every other sportive I have done Iin UK with one or two riders and 6 at most.
The lonliest was Tour of Pembroke, did 200k with only company for first 15km (with 1st cat rider who dropped me) then with one or two riders for short strecthes for a few km in middle.
This is because UK events have smaller group starts and not massed starts like the continent so it is much harder to ride in large groups over here due to different abilities.
In the Eurpopean ones I found that after climbs and decents, groups of simialr ability always form.
So in the UK I do not fancy paying over £25 to ride roads I can ride any time, alone most of the route.0 -
So ride them on your own oldwelshman. I've ridden plenty of sportives in large groups. The original poster asked if it was ok to tag along without paying. Simple answer is nobody can stop you, but its not really in the spirit of things. I got the impression he/she wanted to see what it would be like riding in a sportive. Well chances are if they are quite new to cycling it will be no different to riding on your own as they probably won't be able to keep up anyway. The main difference is the support you get i.e. signage, feed stations, sag wagon, marshalls. There are some events that only charge £8, I've entered one at the end of May that's only £10. So if this person really wanted to give it a try, don't be a tight a**e and pay your way.0
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Pretty much spot on.Nickwill wrote:There is a major difference between finding oneself sharing part of a route where a sportive is happening, and deliberately setting out to ride the sportive route on the day.
If your ride happens to co-incide with some of the route of an organised event you are perfectly within your rights to be on the road, but joining in for the full event is just plain selfish and taking the P.0 -
Noticed one other thing, the original poster has not responded to any of the posts answering his question.0
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Chubby on a compact wrote:So ride them on your own oldwelshman. I've ridden plenty of sportives in large groups. The original poster asked if it was ok to tag along without paying. Simple answer is nobody can stop you, but its not really in the spirit of things. I got the impression he/she wanted to see what it would be like riding in a sportive. Well chances are if they are quite new to cycling it will be no different to riding on your own as they probably won't be able to keep up anyway. The main difference is the support you get i.e. signage, feed stations, sag wagon, marshalls. There are some events that only charge £8, I've entered one at the end of May that's only £10. So if this person really wanted to give it a try, don't be a tight a**e and pay your way.
I rode a few on my own, thats why I now shoose not to. I can ride any route I like on my own so why pay £30 to do so? You cannot tell me I get £30 worth of food!! Some events were better marshalled than others, some with showers some without. But nione massed starts.
This is why I choose not to ride them as they do not offer same value to me personally as foereign sportives, but that my choice. If people are prepared to pay this money to ride mediocre UK events then that is purely up to them.
To be honest I find the reliability rides better but they are only pre season and just finished in Herts/Beds.0 -
Nobody is saying you can't ride any route you like. The original poster asked if it was ok to tag along in a sportive. As I said nobody can stop you from doing this but its not really in the spirit of things. I've also ridden some sportives on my own as well as in groups and found them enjoyable either way. Its not just the food you pay for its the organisation, signage, marshalls, sag wagon. Each to their own. Like I said before the original poster has not posted any replies to any of the responses, so what does that tell you? We have enough free loaders already in this country.0
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Here in Belgium I hear similar 'discussions' already mentioned here - we have many of these organised events every weekend for both road & MTB enthusiasts and there are certainly many events with large numbers of participants (>1000 riders).
The unofficial participants are known as 'black riders'
As mentioned I think it's perfectly normal to accept sharing the roads with others - it's really the difference between sharing the odd stretch of road versus taking in the whole event without paying.
As an additonal point, the Friday before the Tour of Flanders sportive is now really quite busy (busier than many sportives when they are actually taking place!) due to the locals wanting to ride the route outside of the official recreational due to either dispute over the price (ToF sportive is 4 times more expensive than a regular sportive) or that they don't want to suffer the crowds on the climbs that sometimes make the narrow ascents quite impossible.0 -
Thanks for all of the input into this interesting topic, I've been away in hospital recently, and away from the computer(and bike).
Would like to say that I am a proper cyclist, and have been in clubs and raced etc, although not too recently.
Have thought about doing a sportive, but have been surprised that some charge so much.
I would agree that it is wrong to turn up at the startline, at the same time, and scoff all the food en route(surely this is theft...), and ride through the finishing line(after timing myself). Yes, this would be very naughty.
What I might have done, is share the public roads, with the event, to see how they work, and view turnout etc.
I would be very annoyed if I was told that I couldn't ride the same roads if I wanted to. Whose doing the sportive haven't bought the road for the day, its open to everyone to do as they please.0 -
Nobody is saying you can't ride on public roads, but to target certain routes when you know a sportive is taking place is very naughty as you put it. You already know what its like riding in a group having been a member of a club and raced so that won't be a new experience for you. What you are really saying is you want a piece of the cake without paying for it. If you want to experience a sportive do what the rest of us do and pay up instead of trying to get a free ride.0
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zoomcp wrote:There seems to be some resentment of sportive organisers; as if they are ripping all us cyclists off so we have every right to snub their entry fee and just ride the course. If they were more open about where the money went there might be less of this feeling? does it really cost £2-3000 to stage a sportive?
Get real. £2-3000 won't even get you started.
A few examples: my event, The White Rose Challenge is spending £3000 on food which we give away BEFORE AND AFTER as part of our entry fee. This does not include the cost of filling up the feed stations - say at least another £1.5k (water is not free either!).
Then signage - I'll need to spend on that this year - take a guess?
First Aid - because it's for charity I'm trying to negotiate a good price, but so far I've been quoted almost £2k.
Van hire - 2x transits for 3 days, do the maths.
HQ - a new all one with all facilities - not cheap.
Online event entry system - nowadays a must have and it's not free!
Event Insurance... and lot's more I could list...
My aim is to try and give a nice sum of what's left of the entry fee (£25 each) to the charity, but how much do you really think is going to be left over? my hope is riders will enter into the spirit of the event (like Lofty's FWC) and raise funds by individual sponsorship. Do you really feel I'm profiteering?
To be honest it is this kind of attitude which makes me question the work I and others put in. I know people like Lofty and Dave (Spud Riley Organiser) start organising the next one as soon as the current one finishes and I can say from my own experience it is not easy. Thankfully there are enough of you out there who do make it all worthwhile.<b>Event Website:</b> http://www.whiteroseclassic.co.uk0 -
I'd never 'bandit' a sportif.
I really cant see that there are any 'Fatcat' race organisers who deserve to have their rides protested against - thats absolutely laughable, and just shows how naive some people are. These rides are a lot of work, and if there is no club to share it - then isnt it right that the organiser gets a wage for his efforts ?
I dont see anybody wanting to storm the opera house to protest against Fat Cat ballet promoters - or a Michael Jackson concert ? Personally i think footy is a waste of money - but I'm happy to let supporters spend their money.
Cyclists can be incredibly selfish and stingey with money. I know my club - people would pay thousands for bikes, hundreds on sunglasses and more hundreds on lycra, and then moan about £2 a month for subs - whilst not wanting to do any of the work themselves.
OK - if you're out on a sunday ride and you happen across a ride - I wouldnt avoid the route - but I'd not change my plans to ride with the riders.
Its great to see so many people riding bikes and encouraging to see so many sportives out there now - a few years back - there was nothing. Lets celebrate the boom - not whinge about it eh ?0 -
zoomcp wrote:As an Audax organiser I'm afraid I don't buy into organisers pocketing large amounts of dosh from entry fees (if indeed they even do), most people like me do it because that's the best way to keep popular events going and we ride many other events organised by like minded people so it's only fair to put something back.
I do take a little exception to that implication of "organisers pocketing large amounts of dosh from entry fees", as if it was somehow crooked or immoral. It's great that you organise Audax's and it's great to have different styles and levels of events to choose from, but please look at the bigger picture, consider what Sportive organisers are actually offering, what is involved in providing it, and whether there is anything wrong with making an income from that particular source as opposed to any other source (I presume you have a job or income source of some description to keep a roof over your head and food on your plate?)
No event should be expected to simply cover it's costs. Charity events must make as much for their cause as possible, even club events should put funds into the club coffers and help keep the club running. In my case, running cycle events is my job. Full time. We are a small (two man) business, we pay our taxes and we do not "pocket large amounts of dosh from entry fees"; we pay ourselves a wage (not a particularly big one, I might add), and provide part time work for our team of helpers on our event weekends. Aside from that, we run a business, which costs money! From the rent on our office, to running two vehicles, utility bills, a shed full of event kit, the new timing system we've just invested in, insurance, office equipment, web hosting, marketing costs.... anyone who's run their own business will know what's involved. And then of course you have to keep cash in the business just to keep it viable! It's hard work, it's not the best living I could make, but it's something I enjoy, get a great deal of satisfaction from and take pride in, and, sorry if I sound a bit ranty, but it does annoy and depress me when someone suggests that I am somehow ripping people off because I make a living organising cycle events!
Fine, if paying £20-£25 (or whatever - our sportives start at £14) to ride your bike isn't for you, if you're happier to sort yourself out that's up to you. But don't cast aspersions on something that a lot of people enjoy doing and consider perfectly good value. Not everyone enjoys DIY, some people would rather pay a builder. Not everyone wants to plan a route and ride alone all the time; some people would rather ride events. It's simple choice. Market forces will set the price and what you get for your money, but I really don't think £25 is too much to pay for your day out. Just take a look at the world beyond cycling and ask yourself what £25 really gets you these days.Martin
trailbreak.co.uk
southernsportive.com0 -
SS; I was replying to a post upthread "who cares if the organisers pocket some of the proceeds" and I stick by that, your situation as a person who makes a living from it is obviously completely different and nobody begrudges paying the entry fee to enable you do do your job and provide something that obvioulsy a lot of people want.
As I said; my only experience is of Audax events where nobody makes money from it (apart from maybe a small thank you gift for the volunteer and often non-cyclist helpers either), the "impression" and I reiterate that it's just an impression that sportives are overpriced comes from riders I know who don't ride them. The replies to this and the other thread have provided much evidence that they are indeed not overpriced considering what the overheads and also the overall product is, which cannot be compared to the Audax / Time trial etc type of event.
I repeat I'm absolutley not having a go at anybody on here; in fact respect to anybody who is prepared to have a go at what must be a very difficult undertaking to make one's living from.0 -
zoomcp: Thanks for clarifying that and sorry if I misinterpreted your earlier quote at all. It's not a bad way to make a living (there are many worse!)
and for the most part, people do accept it for what it is.
In fact my experience is that the people who enter events are generally happy with what they're paying and what they get. And that's fine. And the people who aren't into events or don't think they're worth the money generally organise their own rides instead or get involved with club or group rides, and that's fine too. But there seems to be a rather vocal minority that come to events (and frequent web forums) with a view that you should be laying everything on for them practically free, and they mystify me. You probably get them in all walks of life though.Martin
trailbreak.co.uk
southernsportive.com0 -
what amazes me is that even on my Audax event 3 or 4 people still turn up every year and ride round without paying (one usually enters just to get the route sheet so they can all follow him) this just beggars belief on a £5 entry fee :roll: but they do it every year so not much I can do about it.
I think you definitely do get more on a Sportive than an Audax; I'm not at all bothered about the extra touches like timing chips sag wagons signed routes etc but as 5 times as many people seem to enter 100km sportives than Audax events round my area they obviously think that it's worth the extra. And I have to say that a big field adds to the enjoyment of the ride; this what made the 2007 TdF sportive so unforgettable.0 -
It strikes me that the only facilities that sportif organisers provide that aren't linked to entry are way marking and the chance to ride with a load of other people
Everything else you are supposed to get like a timing chip, access to feed stations, medical support, massages, souvenir jerseys and photograhs would be easy to only give to real entrants
Do UK sportifs have massed starts that block the roads? I didn't think that this was the case. So the roads being "overwealmed" by freeloaders seems bogus
Bit of a non topic really. If you want to be a tightfisted semi-participant of a sportif then the people and the signs are there. But to get the full experience you have to enter0 -
I think it's bad form, but on the insurance front you can join BC and get cover for a year that way."And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
- eccolafilosofiadelpedale0
