Showing your appreciation

teagar

How many of you have gone to see a pro race and found yourself receivng very hostile looks from everyone in the crowd for booing and jeering your favourite villans?! Worse, have you found yourself cheering for people you'd otherwise slate on say, a forum?


I was at the TDF 2007 prologue in London and was told off by various people around me after I was booing the discovery riders. Apparantly, it wasn't "british" or something like that.

Then at stage one of the Tour of Britain I naturally booed and jeered the rock racing lot. Nothing too rude, just lots of "lay off the jungle juice" "where's your twin?" to Hamilton etc. - I got an awful lot of bad looks! Didn't go down well with others nearby.

I was dissapointed to be honest. I thought if there was one thing that'd get a crowd here going is having a load of ex dopers in the race!

It's come to my attention given the "interesting" rider selection in the TOC this year...

Your views?

whyamihere

Problem is, many of the people in the crowds in this country won't know their stuff regarding cycling. Had it been a knowledgeable crowd, you may have got different reactions.

aurelio_-_banned

teagar wrote:

How many of you have gone to see a pro race and found yourself receivng very hostile looks from everyone in the crowd for booing and jeering your favourite villans?

This has never happened to me because, rather than going to events and shouting abuse at the 'villans', I have ‘boycotted’ pro races for a number of years now. After the excellent work of Patrice Clerc in relation to the Tour last year I was all set to see the TdF in the Alps this year. As you might have guessed I won't be bothering now!

'Voting with ones feet' by staying away is perhaps the best thing followers of cycling can do. In my experience many others are doing the same. I can recall seeing the Tour 20-odd years ago in the Alps and I am certain that the crowds then were much bigger than they are today, even though more people now travel from outside France to see the race.

It's much the same story with regards TV audiences.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/ ... s/tour.php

Of those who still watch the Tour in France itself, 22% do so to see the scenery, 7% out of nostalgia, 16% for the doping scandals and only 16% for the racing itself!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 232269.ece

iainf72

I had plans on 07 at the Tour prologue to yell "scab" at Cavendish but fortunately didn't see him (he'd annoyed me tremendously by signing McQuaids commitment thingy)

Di Luca at the ToB last year was worth a cheer because despite being dodgier than a 3 speed walking stick, he's still pretty exciting.

But I'd never go out of my way to say anything to someone coming back from a ban or with a "reputation"

disgruntledgoat

I'm going to St. Jean De Maurienne for the stages starting and finishing there. I had a thought of getting some photos taken with some comeback guys who don't speak english... In a t-shirt reading "i'm with the massive cheat".

moray_gub

aurelio wrote:

teagar wrote:

How many of you have gone to see a pro race and found yourself receivng very hostile looks from everyone in the crowd for booing and jeering your favourite villans?

This has never happened to me because, rather than going to events and shouting abuse at the 'villans', I have ‘boycotted’ pro races for a number of years now. After the excellent work of Patrice Clerc in relation to the Tour last year I was all set to see the TdF in the Alps this year. As you might have guessed I won't be bothering now!

'Voting with ones feet' by staying away is perhaps the best thing followers of cycling can do. In my experience many others are doing the same. I can recall seeing the Tour 20-odd years ago in the Alps and I am certain that the crowds then were much bigger than they are today, even though more people now travel from outside France to see the race.

It's much the same story with regards TV audiences.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/ ... s/tour.php

Of those who still watch the Tour in France itself, 22% do so to see the scenery, 7% out of nostalgia, 16% for the doping scandals and only 16% for the racing itself!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 232269.ece

You have a strange attitude for someone who wants to see improvement. I sometimes get the impression youd like the pro cycling scene to fold altogether and become some kind of crowd less televison free zone where riders got the train and rival fans leave nails on the road a kind of cycling utopia if you like, each to their own but this is my sport staying away or switching off is the last thing id ever consider

In my experince crowds arev as big as ever i was at Plouay in 2002 and the time trail around Lorient for the TT and last year i around Cholet for the TT and then Hautacam and the crowds last year were much much bigger than previous years ok one was a mountain stage but the others were comparable.

seems a few nations tv figures are on the up for this race in 2007

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... fer=europe

Also the crowds at last years spring classics looked as big as ever as well espeially Roubaix if folks are staying away nobody told them.


MG

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

I had plans on 07 at the Tour prologue to yell "scab" at Cavendish but fortunately didn't see him (he'd annoyed me tremendously by signing McQuaids commitment thingy)

As someone who stood on many a picket line in Fife and one infamous day at Orgreave Coking Plant in the summer of 84 and shouted the "scab" word in its more common use i am mystified as to why you would use such a word to a young and upcoming cyclist purely becuase he signed a naff document...........explain please ?


MG

aurelio_-_banned

Moray Gub wrote:

In my experince crowds arev as big as ever i was at Plouay in 2002...

2002? Recent history! I first followed the Tour live in 1978!

Even though TV viewing figures are still relatively high in many European countries it remains the case that these days many viewers and not die-hard cycling fans, watching the coverage for the scenery and so on. Also, that report you linked to does not discuss the huge fall in viewing figures in Germany over the last few years, nor the decline in France.

I have seen many stage finishes on Alpe d'Huez over the decades and am certain that the crowds are fewer now than, for example, in the early 80's. I also recall reading back in the early 1970's how one third of the French population only worked for two third of the time during the Tour period because they were taking unofficial time off to watch the race, and calculations were even done to estimate how much Tour related absences from work cost the French economy each year. Those days are long gone!

Another big difference I have noticed is how it is often difficult to find a bar showing live coverage of the Tour these days, even on mountain stages, and even then you probably find the few watching are Brit's on holiday! I certainly never experienced anything like this when watching the Tour 20-30 years ago.

off the back

Have to say this is not just something the fans do ....

At Tour of Qinghai Lake, Hamilton told one of the leading riders that he was very strong and riding really well - to which the rider told him f-off ....f-kers like you should be in prison.

leguape

aurelio wrote:

Another big difference I have noticed is how it is often difficult to find a bar showing live coverage of the Tour these days, even on mountain stages, and even then you probably find the few watching are Brit's on holiday! I certainly never experienced anything like this when watching the Tour 20-30 years ago.

French state television had a monopoly on television broadcasting until 1981. There were three channels. Currently it is shown on France 2 and 3, both of which are public broadcasters available on all analogue and digital platforms.

In every year that I have either been living in or visiting France in the last eleven I've had no problem finding a bar showing it in everywhere from Marseille to Paris and even tiny one bar towns in the heart of the Massif Central.

aurelio_-_banned

leguape wrote:

In every year that I have either been living in or visiting France in the last eleven I've had no problem finding a bar showing it...

Perhaps 'finding' is the key word here. I can recall the time when you didn't have to 'find' a bar showing the Tour, you just went into the nearest one and it would be on!

moray_gub

aurelio wrote:

leguape wrote:

In every year that I have either been living in or visiting France in the last eleven I've had no problem finding a bar showing it...

Perhaps 'finding' is the key word here. I can recall the time when you didn't have to 'find' a bar showing the Tour, you just went into the nearest one and it would be on!

In my experience thats still the case certainly 2000-2008 ive been in France every year in July on those years and every time i walked into a bar in the afternoon (which is often) the race has been on.Maybe its just the kinda bars you frequent .Anyway what about other races the spring classic for example........crowds at last year at Paris Roubaix were huge.

MG

dave_1

aurelio wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

In my experince crowds arev as big as ever i was at Plouay in 2002...

2002? Recent history! I first followed the Tour live in 1978!

Even though TV viewing figures are still relatively high in many European countries it remains the case that these days many viewers and not die-hard cycling fans, watching the coverage for the scenery and so on. Also, that report you linked to does not discuss the huge fall in viewing figures in Germany over the last few years, nor the decline in France.

I have seen many stage finishes on Alpe d'Huez over the decades and am certain that the crowds are fewer now than, for example, in the early 80's. I also recall reading back in the early 1970's how one third of the French population only worked for two third of the time during the Tour period because they were taking unofficial time off to watch the race, and calculations were even done to estimate how much Tour related absences from work cost the French economy each year. Those days are long gone!

Another big difference I have noticed is how it is often difficult to find a bar showing live coverage of the Tour these days, even on mountain stages, and even then you probably find the few watching are Brit's on holiday! I certainly never experienced anything like this when watching the Tour 20-30 years ago.

watching overhead cam footage of the Alpe DHuez stage it is hard to tell...but they put barriers up in the final 5km starting 1989 cause the columbian Parra had his attacks blocked by motorbikes-blocked by crowds. i suppose that could be cause more motos, but also poss more crowds. have watched on Alpe twice too...2004 looked just insane from TV..no room for riders

around 8-9 minutes

e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHhWf6B ... 1&index=20

cougie

off the back wrote:

Have to say this is not just something the fans do ....

At Tour of Qinghai Lake, Hamilton told one of the leading riders that he was very strong and riding really well - to which the rider told him f-off ....f-kers like you should be in prison.

I like it - thats the attitude !

Kléber

You still get crowds but the attitude is different. Many go for the show - often the race passes through areas where nothing happens all year - and to collect freebies from the caravan ahead of the race.

A former colleague works in France and the race passed right by his office and many colleagues sloped off to watch the finish but he was suprised that most people were there to see the riders as freakshow participants, they loved the race and what the Tour represented but feel very removed from the riders, too many tales of doping and cheating, they just can't relate to it. One of the French newspapers had a similar article a while ago, that factory workers, truck drivers and racing cyclists would take a stimulant to help them get through a long shift in the past, today's doping sees abusing stolem chemotherapy medicines in secret and TV images of police raids on hotels. No one can relate to the riders any more and almost all the riders get tarred with this image.

Certainly in France and many riders do get booed. I saw the Dauphine Libere a while back and it was just after Liberty Seguros had seen Manolo Saiz busted. When Vinokourov emerged from the team bus he was surrounded by hecklers and journalists alike although of course many were not saying anything.

Armstrong himself complained during his last Tour that he was frequently taunted but this happens to many riders, even those at the back of the field.

terongi

teagar wrote:

I was at the TDF 2007 prologue in London and was told off by various people around me after I was booing the discovery riders. Apparantly, it wasn't "british" or something like that.

Then at stage one of the Tour of Britain I naturally booed and jeered the rock racing lot. Nothing too rude, just lots of "lay off the jungle juice" "where's your twin?" to Hamilton etc. - I got an awful lot of bad looks! Didn't go down well with others nearby.

I was dissapointed to be honest. I thought if there was one thing that'd get a crowd here going is having a load of ex dopers in the race!

I agree with the people who gave you dirty looks. One of the reasons I like to follow pro cycling as a sport in the UK is becauise it does not have the thug/hooligan mentality of football.

I don't want to attend a sporting event (with or without my kids) where people are hurling verbal obscenities (or worse) at the sportsmen.

Every UK pro cycling event I have been to (TdF in London, Tour of Britain, Premier Calendar etc) has been good natured with a great festival atmosphere. I would not want to lose that to booing and jeering and swearing.

Of course there is a doping problem and of course it's deplorable and needs to be sorted out. But booing and swearing at people won't solve it. The riders who are not doping (I know there are some conspiracy paranoiacs on this forum who think that a non-doping pro doesn't exist) deserve better.

I know that the French and Belgian and Iltalian and Dutch fans have been booing at riders and each other for years, but I am happy that (for the moment) it is not "British" to do that. The euro-booing has had very little to do with doping (Bartali-Coppi - Anquetil-Poulidor). Those riders may have doped but they weren't booed for that.

Do you really think Tyler Hamilton or Floyd Landis are going to pack up and go home because someone booed at them? Are their DSs going to sack them for that? Are their sponsors going to withdraw funding? Are the TV stations going to switch to celebrity underwater darts instead?

Get real.

Leave your conspiracies at home and have a nice day out. You might even enjoy it.

aurelio_-_banned

Kleber is spot on with his analysis. Whatever the road-side or TV viewing figures may be, the relationship between the riders and the spectators is very different to what it was when I first followed the Tour. (I have already linked to a story about how more people watch the Tour on TV these days to see the scenery than to watch the racing, and how 90% of French Tour followers agree with the statement 'Doping has destroyed everything, I feel betrayed').

With regards road-side spectators at the Tour, of course a lot of people still watch the Tour, even if this is only because it is a day out for the kids rather than because they 'believe' in the racing, and you will still get TV-friendly pockets of enthusiastic fans. But as someone who has followed many stages of the Tour and have learnt some of the best vantage points over the years, it has at times shocked me how you can now often turn up 20 minutes before the race comes though and get a prime spot that you would have had to claim and 'defend' for 2 or 3 hours in the past.

Plenty of others have made similar observations. For example:

---

...the Tour de France no longer grips France quite the way that it did. The Tour organisers deny it. Reliable, independent figures are impossible to come by. None the less, visits over the years suggest that the roadside crowds are not so large as they were a decade ago; not so joyous; and not so reverent.

Officially, the Tour still attracts 10 million spectators - some say 15 million - as it pedals for three weeks around France. This makes it the most watched live sporting event in the world.

I rode in the Tour myself nine years ago (admittedly in the back of an official roads ministry truck, taking nothing more stimulating than Coca-Cola). The crowds were overwhelming. They lined the entire 130-mile stage up to 10 rows deep in the villages and towns across lower Normandy and Brittany.

This week in Pau, you could find a place to lean on a barrier within a kilometre of the finish line five minutes before the race leaders came by.

..."It's an afternoon's fun for the kids. Kids love a parade. We won't even wait for the bicycles to go by. I used to follow the Tour, as a race, when I was younger but..." He spread his hands dismissively. "It means nothing to me now. I hardly know the name of two or three riders. If they want to dope themselves, fine. Let them take that risk. But don't keep telling us it's clean when everyone knows it is not. Who are we supposed to believe? Who are our heroes supposed to be?"

A little further away from the finish line, Robert Saliou, 74, a retired factory worker, was waiting for his "20th or 30th Tour, I can't remember". (Pau is a near-permanent fixture on the Tour schedule.)

"Ah no, it's not the same. Not the same at all. I remember when I was young, the whole town would take the day off. The factories would close. There would be buses to bring in people from the villages. There was a sense of a feast day, a holiday. There's not that excitement now."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 08039.html

aurelio_-_banned

Moray Gub wrote:

this is my sport staying away or switching off is the last thing id ever consider

Well, if you want to give your tacit approval to the dopers by turning up to their little circus, cheering them on and making the road-side crowds look just a little more impressive for the TV cameras, that's your choice. I can't help feeling though, that as long as the 'fans' continue to give such support regardless of all the doping scandals, the sponsors and others involved will be unlikely to see a need to clean up the racing and to give us something that we can really believe in once more.

eh

The relationship between sportsmen and the public changed with the stupid amounts of money involved not doping.

As for booing at races errr no thanks you can leave that type of attitude at home. All it does is ruin the day for others and achieve nothing.

I tend to find pro cycling too depressing to watch now, not because of the drugs as such but because the winner on the day is often not the winner several months and court cases later, now WTF wants that stupid situation? I've still no idea who won the 2006 TDF

aurelio_-_banned

terongi wrote:

Do you really think Tyler Hamilton or Floyd Landis are going to pack up and go home because someone booed at them? Are their DSs going to sack them for that? Are their sponsors going to withdraw funding? Are the TV stations going to switch to celebrity underwater darts instead?

No, they will only do that when people stop turning up to shout their support for the meaningless 'sports entertainment' circus that pro cycling has become.

timoid.

Surely part of the reason the French are less enthusiastic is that there hasn't been a top drawer French rider to shout about for a decade and no Tour contender for two (I don't count Virenque).

dennisn

teagar wrote:

How many of you have gone to see a pro race and found yourself receivng very hostile looks from everyone in the crowd for booing and jeering your favourite villans?! Worse, have you found yourself cheering for people you'd otherwise slate on say, a forum?


I was at the TDF 2007 prologue in London and was told off by various people around me after I was booing the discovery riders. Apparantly, it wasn't "british" or something like that.

Then at stage one of the Tour of Britain I naturally booed and jeered the rock racing lot. Nothing too rude, just lots of "lay off the jungle juice" "where's your twin?" to Hamilton etc. - I got an awful lot of bad looks! Didn't go down well with others nearby.

I was dissapointed to be honest. I thought if there was one thing that'd get a crowd here going is having a load of ex dopers in the race!

It's come to my attention given the "interesting" rider selection in the TOC this year...

Your views?

So your main interest in going to races is to "get a crowd here going" by shouting at "ex dopers". Nice!!!! Great example for any children that happen to be around. Go back to your football where you can be a idiot and no one cares.

Dennis Noward

Kléber

Dennis, for the children I think the likes of Landis, Hamilton, Mancebo, Basso and many others are far worse examples than a few fans expressing their dislike for known cheats.

Personally I couldn't care less for the likes of Landis. I note in a recent interview session he refused to answer questions on his past. Why don't journalists play this game and refuse to ask him questions about his future? Because he can't control things, he needs to be available to talk about his mistakes.

So I'd go to the race but to give a cheer to the likes of Farrar, Tuft, Gadret, Hushovd or Hansen because these guys have spoken out about riding clean.

aurelio_-_banned

Timoid. wrote:

Surely part of the reason the French are less enthusiastic is that there hasn't been a top drawer French rider to shout about for a decade and no Tour contender for two (I don't count Virenque).

All the surveys show that doping is the real issue and that the French don't care that much about who wins as long as they can 'believe' in the result. Also just look who France's biggest cycling hero ever is - Raymond Poulidor - and the French loved him so much because he never won the Tour! All in all, the view that the only attraction of the Tour for the French is to see someone of the same nationality win the race is a rather narrow and 'Anglo-Saxon' one! Such a winner- centric view probably holds true for most American fans of the Tour though!

P.s You seem to have overlooked Moreau, who came 4th in 2000 against the likes of Armstrong and Ullrich, despite racing on 'nothing' and having a haemocrit of 39%.

aurelio_-_banned

P.s. We also need to remember that the dopers themselves regard those crowds who shout encouragement, irrespective of all the doping scandals, as validating their actions.

'you know, out of 100 people, did you have 10 people throwin’ shit at you, yellin’, ‘Dopé, dopé’? Yeah. But you had 90 goin’, ‘Allez Lance! Allez Lance!’ I can do the math on that. My approval rating is 90 percent. Fuckin’ A. I like that.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/featu ... rentPage=5

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

Dennis, for the children I think the likes of Landis, Hamilton, Mancebo, Basso and many others are far worse examples than a few fans expressing their dislike for known cheats.

Personally I couldn't care less for the likes of Landis. I note in a recent interview session he refused to answer questions on his past. Why don't journalists play this game and refuse to ask him questions about his future? Because he can't control things, he needs to be available to talk about his mistakes.

So I'd go to the race but to give a cheer to the likes of Farrar, Tuft, Gadret, Hushovd or Hansen because these guys have spoken out about riding clean.

Sounds to me like "teagar" is only out there to raise a little hell. You know, get drunk, maybe get in a fight, shout obsenities, things like that. Do you really think he cares about the racing and or doping or any rider in particular. He's just out there to be a rowdy more than likely.

Dennis Noward

LittleB0b

Then at stage one of the Tour of Britain I naturally booed and jeered the rock racing lot. Nothing too rude, just lots of "lay off the jungle juice" "where's your twin?" to Hamilton etc. - I got an awful lot of bad looks! Didn't go down well with others nearby.

My thoughts - it make you sound like a building site worker who thinks it's funny to shout "get your tits out" and "do you take it up the shitter" at any passing female under 50 - in short a bit of a twunt.

I'd be moving away if you were stood next to me.

disgruntledgoat

aurelio wrote:

P.s You seem to have overlooked Moreau, who came 4th in 2000 against the likes of Armstrong and Ullrich, despite racing on 'nothing' and having a haemocrit of 39%.

I can never tell if you're being sarcastic or not...

aurelio_-_banned

disgruntledgoat wrote:

aurelio wrote:

P.s You seem to have overlooked Moreau, who came 4th in 2000 against the likes of Armstrong and Ullrich, despite racing on 'nothing' and having a haemocrit of 39%.

I can never tell if you're being sarcastic or not...

No I'm not, at least here. But I must admit that it is ironic that Moreau was robbed of a Tour win by dopers when he himself was part of the whole Festina scandal. :shock:

---

Cyclevaughters: anyhow, i never can quite figure out why i don't just play along with the lance crowd - i mean shit it would make my life easier, eh? it's not like i never played with hotsauce, eh?

FDREU: I know, but in the end i don't think it comes back to bite you

FDREU: I play along, my wife does not, and Lance hates us both

FDREU: it's a no win situation, you know how he is. Once you leave the team or do soemthing wrong you forever banned

Cyclevaughters: i suppose - you know he tried to hire me back in 2001... he was nice to me... i just couldn't deal with that whole world

FDREU: I did not know that

FDREU: look at why everyone leaves, it's way to controlling

Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now all the teams got 25 injections every day

Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO

FDREU: you mean all the riders

Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole

FDREU: it's crazy

Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of shit when he'd say everyone was doing it

FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the Tour and lance but it's just playing the game

Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39%

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis ... ssage.html

timoid.

aurelio wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Surely part of the reason the French are less enthusiastic is that there hasn't been a top drawer French rider to shout about for a decade and no Tour contender for two (I don't count Virenque).

All the surveys show that doping is the real issue and that the French don't care that much about who wins as long as they can 'believe' in the result. Also just look who France's biggest cycling hero ever is - Raymond Poulidor - and the French loved him so much because he never won the Tour! All in all, the view that the only attraction of the Tour for the French is to see someone of the same nationality win the race is a rather narrow and 'Anglo-Saxon' one! Such a winner- centric view probably holds true for most American fans of the Tour though!

P.s You seem to have overlooked Moreau, who came 4th in 2000 against the likes of Armstrong and Ullrich, despite racing on 'nothing' and having a haemocrit of 39%.

Moreau was never in contention (@10 mins).

Poulidor was colossus. His Palmares knock the shit out any French rider since Hinault. Vuelta, Milan San-Remo, Fleche Wallone, Dauphine Libere, Paris Nice twice, 4 time world medalist, multiple Tour and Vuelta podiums. All this in the eras of Monsieur Chrono and the Cannibal.

Also if the French don't care what nationality the winner is what the fork happened to Merckx in 75?

leguape

aurelio wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Surely part of the reason the French are less enthusiastic is that there hasn't been a top drawer French rider to shout about for a decade and no Tour contender for two (I don't count Virenque).

All the surveys show that doping is the real issue and that the French don't care that much about who wins as long as they can 'believe' in the result. Also just look who France's biggest cycling hero ever is - Raymond Poulidor - and the French loved him so much because he never won the Tour! All in all, the view that the only attraction of the Tour for the French is to see someone of the same nationality win the race is a rather narrow and 'Anglo-Saxon' one! Such a winner- centric view probably holds true for most American fans of the Tour though!

P.s You seem to have overlooked Moreau, who came 4th in 2000 against the likes of Armstrong and Ullrich, despite racing on 'nothing' and having a haemocrit of 39%.

You've bought the myth on Poulidor then? The French loved him because the people writing about the Tour loved him out of spite for Anquetil about whom they couldn't write their florid prose. The eternal second was better copy and in an age when they heard the tour in the newspapers and radio, before television, that was an easier narrative to tell and a more attractive one for the scribes. Anquetil was booed because the writers demanded it as they couldn't write about the tactical nous and brilliance of his riding and sell copy
The key point about doping is that the disconnect happens when doping ceases to be something they can relate to (over-the-counter amphetamines, painkillers, suppositories and narcotics) and delved into the realm of Dr Frankenstein. They were quite happy to sustain a doped sport until it became about improving performance rather than masking the pain.

So it's not doping itself that is the issue but the type. It's a moral equivalence not an absolute.