Pantani

245

Comments

  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    adeyboy wrote:
    Staggering level of Hypocrisy here. Pantani was a druggie. Confirmed cheat. Caught. His duels with Armstrong or anyone else should be stricken from the record books.
    adeyboy wrote:
    Look, I used to love Pantani - I remember willing him up the Ventoux in 2000 (I think that was the year) but he turned out to be a cheat damn it! I also read the biography Rendell wrote and found it desperately sad...
    .

    Forums are fuelled on hypocrisy. Hardly anyone is immune from it.
    Without it, all would be in accord.
    Here's you, joining in.
    Pantani never actually failed a dope test, just a "health " test. :wink:
    So, technically not guilty, just like "that other guy".
    No traces of an illegal substance, here.
    Matt Rendell's account is credible, but David Walsh's books are not.

    See how this lopsided viewpoint works?

    You believe or disbelieve one, you have to follow through with the others.

    There is a lot of talk about lifetime bans for dopers. Well, Pantani's already been condemned by some, for eternity.

    Perhaps that's why many are prepared to cut him some slack and just remember how he added a huge splash of colour and panache, to a sport that has become rather stereotypical, in recent years.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • le_patron
    le_patron Posts: 494
    Totally off topic, sorry, but as it relates to my last point, some interesting power stats here

    http://www.velonews.com/article/87814/s ... s-from-the
  • Murr X
    Murr X Posts: 258
    aurelio wrote:
    adeyboy wrote:
    KKspeeder wrote:
    ...Lance and the other top dogs are blood doping with their own blood. Lance is a super-responder to a high hematocrit and he gains a lot of power from it compared to most guys. His body is talented at blood doping. "Lance" has the sponsorship and power within the industry to basically own everyone.

    ...The difference doping makes is absolutely startling. Lance would never crack 390 watts for his 30 minute sustainable power totally clean. Like 370 for his FTP at best. Fully doped he could do over 490 watts. Maybe over 500.

    Lance doesnt have a huge "ceiling" for aerobic power. An 81.2 VO2 max is good for a Pro but not super. Not something that would normally get a guy in the top 50 places in the world that is... Unless you a super responder to drug-therepy and have killer doping doctor Ferrari....
    That's all very impressive. How do you know these things and how can I belive them from you?
    I might be wrong but I think KKspeeder might well be 'RealGains' from the CuttingEdgeMuscle doping forum. I don't know his real name but from what other posters on that site who do seem to know him personally say, he appears to be an American professional cyclist. If he is who I think he is he has ridden as a team mate of Pharmstrong so he should know what he is talking about. :wink:

    Yup.

    I doubt if it is RG but undoubtebly its someone that thinks the sun shines out of his ass and quotes him to make himself look knowledgeable and way more intellegent, grown up and advanced than the rest of us on here. :wink: But maybe he is.

    If RG told KKspeeder to drink his own pi$$ to go faster he would probably believe it. :lol:

    BTW no offense meant to KKspeeder, I'm just fooling around here as this bloody recession has given me nothing better to do. :x

    About the VO2 thing, mine was tested at 66 while at 61KG a few years back however my FTP at my best was 330W at 62KG (SRM) so how does this tie into you're theory? Unless the machine was faulty at the time and showing too low a reading (bearing in mind that I only had it tested once).

    Howdy.

    RIP Pantani.
  • warrior4life
    warrior4life Posts: 925
    RIP pantani...
    i dont care if he took drugs, he still deserves respect
  • NJK
    NJK Posts: 194
    adeyboy wrote:
    neeb wrote:
    but this guy cannot be put up as a hero by the same people who are castigating Armstrong in other threads; it just doesn't make sense.
    I agree, but cheating is relative. I know some people will strongly disagree with that, but it's true. In a culture where everyone was taking EPO to get their haemocrit to 49 exactly (as they were in 1998) it's not the same. Pantani was a victim.

    Pantani was a victim? Bullshit! He was a cheat and he let me and all his other fans down.
    The victims were the honest riders who's win money he took.

    Who did he cheat in that era? 1994-2000.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    I think Pantani retains a romantic attraction because of the way he rode, attacking solo up the Galibier. He went in search of results, he didn't play the percentages, nor tried to grind down his rivals with a strong team and extra-terrestrial time trials, he flew up the mountains and provided some of the most stunning moments of TV cycling.

    But this is the romantic vision, if you watch one of the Giros, the year when he was ejected, he was on such a level above everyone that the race was a farce, it was clear he was just pushing the boundaries of healthy and pharmacology.

    He does seem to be a victim, but off the bike, the people surrounding him were not so keen for him to seek treatment but wanted him back on the bike so they could continue cashing in. But until his huge substance abuse problems came to dominate his life, he was simply doing what most other top riders were doing, paying huge amounts to Ferrari/Conconi/Fuentes/Cecchini etc and not asking too many questions.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    le patron wrote:
    I can do a good realgains impression if I copy and paste from the cutting edge muscle forum. :wink:

    Not that I'm necessarily saying all those facts and figures aren't accurate. They do get to the heart of the issue....what power output is being generated for how long by a rider weighing how much.

    This is essentially what Lemond wanted and if measured against a baseline would go a long way to showing whether performances are unassisted or not.

    Don't think we'll ever get those though.


    Holy hell that forum is scary...
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Who wouldn't say they enjoyed those unbelievably exciting stages with Pantani and the other juiced riders (or not) in the mountains? I can't remember feeling the same excitement as I did then.

    I still crave the inhuman efforts and accelerations. I enjoyed the days when we lived in ignorance! Not so sure all those riders who died of doping-related problems did mind...

    It's not the same now that with every quality effort you think "he's juiced", or "that's literally ubelievable" - and you're usually spot on.

    First stage I ever watched was Pantani up the Galibier and I was hooked immediately. Is ingrained (engrained?) on my brain...

    Love it.

    Kleber's spot on.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    Me? No way! Cutting Edge Muscle is an excellent training forum, not scary at all. Click on the Base Miles thread.

    Gustof Larsson’s FTP is 410 watts, his averaged 530 and he only got 38th!

    Now thats F-d up! Can you say "blood refills!" Maybe the guy who stole Lance's bike will 'dump his blood refills down the sink!'

    Lance would never get passed 475 watts for 5 minutes totally clean, EVEN if he could hold 132% of FTP for 5 minute strait!
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    Murr X wrote:
    aurelio wrote:
    adeyboy wrote:
    KKspeeder wrote:
    ...Lance and the other top dogs are blood doping with their own blood. Lance is a super-responder to a high hematocrit and he gains a lot of power from it compared to most guys. His body is talented at blood doping. "Lance" has the sponsorship and power within the industry to basically own everyone.

    ...The difference doping makes is absolutely startling. Lance would never crack 390 watts for his 30 minute sustainable power totally clean. Like 370 for his FTP at best. Fully doped he could do over 490 watts. Maybe over 500.

    Lance doesnt have a huge "ceiling" for aerobic power. An 81.2 VO2 max is good for a Pro but not super. Not something that would normally get a guy in the top 50 places in the world that is... Unless you a super responder to drug-therepy and have killer doping doctor Ferrari....
    That's all very impressive. How do you know these things and how can I belive them from you?
    I might be wrong but I think KKspeeder might well be 'RealGains' from the CuttingEdgeMuscle doping forum. I don't know his real name but from what other posters on that site who do seem to know him personally say, he appears to be an American professional cyclist. If he is who I think he is he has ridden as a team mate of Pharmstrong so he should know what he is talking about. :wink:

    Yup.

    I doubt if it is RG but undoubtebly its someone that thinks the sun shines out of his ass and quotes him to make himself look knowledgeable and way more intellegent, grown up and advanced than the rest of us on here. :wink: But maybe he is.

    If RG told KKspeeder to drink his own pi$$ to go faster he would probably believe it. :lol:

    BTW no offense meant to KKspeeder, I'm just fooling around here as this bloody recession has given me nothing better to do. :x

    About the VO2 thing, mine was tested at 66 while at 61KG a few years back however my FTP at my best was 330W at 62KG (SRM) so how does this tie into you're theory? Unless the machine was faulty at the time and showing too low a reading (bearing in mind that I only had it tested once).

    Howdy.

    RIP Pantani.

    Your VO2 max test was not at the same time period of your highest ever FTP!
    YOu could have been a little bit out of form for the VO2 max test. Fully-trained you no doubt have atleast an 80 VO2 max.

    You do not list your maximal aerobic power at the time of the VO2 max test. What wattage did the incremental test bring you to? How many watts could you hold for 6-8 minutes around the time of the VO2 max test?
  • le_patron
    le_patron Posts: 494
    Larsson's power output on stage 1 looked very ordinary.

    http://www.velonews.com/article/87950/p ... on-s-power
  • roadrider84
    roadrider84 Posts: 335
    RIP Marco. The book, The Death of Marco Pantani, is a great read. Despite its revelations, Marco was one of the main reasons I got into cycling and for that I will always be grateful.
    Trek Madone 5.1

    Bianchi Via Nirone
  • Murr X
    Murr X Posts: 258
    KKspeeder wrote:
    Your VO2 max test was not at the same time period of your highest ever FTP!
    YOu could have been a little bit out of form for the VO2 max test. Fully-trained you no doubt have atleast an 80 VO2 max.

    You do not list your maximal aerobic power at the time of the VO2 max test. What wattage did the incremental test bring you to? How many watts could you hold for 6-8 minutes around the time of the VO2 max test?

    KKsp, I did not train by power at the time of the VO2 test but I would guess I could hold about 340W for 6-8 mins, admittedly not up to what I was later on but I didn't think VO2 could increase that much as was not a bad rider at the time and at a good weight. From memory I hit about 375W at the end of the VO2 test.

    Larson is one hell of a TTer and he got well beaten by some US pros, I really wish they showed us Cancellara's power for that prologue. :shock:

    BTW KKsp, do you really think my VO2 could have been above 80 at 5.3w/kg?

    Cheers 8)
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    Murr X wrote:
    KKspeeder wrote:
    BTW KKsp, do you really think my VO2 could have been above 80 at 5.3w/kg?

    Cheers 8)

    F yeah!

    Atleast upper 70s low 80s. Your FTP for the VO2 max test was 300 tops.With 40 watts more at FTP your VO2 max at its peak is a lot higher. You basically need close to 410 ending power in a ramp test to get a 330 FTP!

    You do the math!
  • flattythehurdler
    flattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    Pantani vs Lance
    Art vs Science?
    Dan
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Conconi vs Ferrari
  • rockmount
    rockmount Posts: 761
    Guilty vs Innocent !
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Now... i'm just playing devils advocate here. But if you can point me to a time when either one of those athletes tested positive for a banned substance Rockmount, i'd be mightily grateful.

    If not, aren;t you applying a higher standard of proof to one than the other?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    One was convicted of sporting fraud, one was sued and lost his bonus for 5 tour wins due to evidence of using PEDs
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Timoid. wrote:
    One was convicted of sporting fraud, one was sued and lost his bonus for 5 tour wins due to evidence of using PEDs

    Yeah that was my thinking... I'm not sure where the black and white of innocent and guilty comes into it. Innocent of what? Doping? Theft? Driving offences? turning a blind eye to doping when you see it? witness intimidation? purchasing recreational drugs? whipping up xenophobia to promote an "us and them" view of yourself?

    There's more to a man than PEDs.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Timoid. wrote:
    One was convicted of sporting fraud, one was sued and lost his bonus for 5 tour wins due to evidence of using PEDs

    Timoid, I though LA won his case... :? :?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    One was convicted of sporting fraud, one was sued and lost his bonus for 5 tour wins due to evidence of using PEDs
    Timoid, I though LA won his case...
    The case was actually settled out of court.

    SCA argued that they were in their rights to withhold payment given the amount of evidence around showing that Armstrong doped, just as a bookmaker is in their rights to refuse to pay out on a rigged race. However it was ruled that SCA had acted as an insurance company and that all the evidence in the world that Armstrong doped was irrelevant, as all that mattered was that Armstrong was the official winner.

    Apparently this ruling was made very early in the pre-trial hearings but Bob Hamman, the owner of SCA, knew that he was been shafted and carried on with the case, at the personal cost of a couple of million dollars, simply in order to ensure that the information which had been provided to him was not buried forever. (It was this hearing that saw the testimony of people like the Andreu’s reach the public arena, and although Armstrong claimed that they had given testimony becuase they 'hated' him, in reality they had to be subpoenaed to appear).

    By the way, you seem to have forgotten to answer my questions on the thread below...

    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... 0&start=60
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    One was convicted of sporting fraud, one was sued and lost his bonus for 5 tour wins due to evidence of using PEDs

    Timoid, I though LA won his case... :? :?


    Sorry. I thought there was some official settlement and that he didn't get his hands on the cash. Aurelio seems to know this better than me.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Timoid. wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    One was convicted of sporting fraud, one was sued and lost his bonus for 5 tour wins due to evidence of using PEDs

    Timoid, I though LA won his case... :? :?


    Sorry. I thought there was some official settlement and that he didn't get his hands on the cash. Aurelio seems to know this better than me.



    don't know.:? :? i thought this was the result.. http://velonews.com/article/10091
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Dave_1 wrote:
    i thought this was the result.. http://velonews.com/article/10091
    I.e. 'I thought that the following piece of spin from Armstrong represents the truth...' :roll:

    By the way, you haven't offered to any help Nigerian businessmen move money out of their country recently, have you? :wink:
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    aurelio wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    i thought this was the result.. http://velonews.com/article/10091
    I.e. 'I thought that the following piece of spin from Armstrong represents the truth...' :roll:

    By the way, you haven't offered to any help Nigerian businessmen move money out of their country recently, have you? :wink:
    :D did LA get 5 million quit plus another 2.5 million...not much spin in that...he either did or he didn't. Tell us if you know the answer Aurelio...there's hope yet for a nasty crash for livestrong anyway so keep your fingers crossed...wet roads there in cali
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    [

    don't know.:? :? i thought this was the result.. http://velonews.com/article/10091[/quote]


    its not unusual for history to be re written as the truth. All the major religions have and we know Arsepong is a god.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    seems he got 7.5 million from SCA ...who knows...who really cares

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Dave_1 wrote:
    did LA get 5 million quit plus another 2.5 million...not much spin in that...
    The spin all relates to exactly why he got the money...
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    aurelio wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    did LA get 5 million quit plus another 2.5 million...not much spin in that...
    The spin all relates to exactly why he got the money...

    ok, fair enough, Aurelio confirms LA did get the money...he's the master of spin...on the bike and off it
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player

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