Armstrong and Catlin terminate programme
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From a man we are told constantly has things like editorial power over Lequipe this is an unmitigated PR disaster. As BS said he has lied to the cycling world and given his many knockers ammunition to lob in the night. That said he is still subjected to the testing regime that other Astana riders are subjected to so make of that what you will.
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
No wonder he had a hissy fit and not answered your question in that interview.iainf72 wrote:
Not much of a surprise really that the testing program was ditched.
Funny how at the TDU he announced that the program was underway and a sample had already been provided and according to Catlin in that article he didn't get anything from Armstrong.0 -
There was never an "anti-doping" ; "program." There never will be. OCC blood values; un-important.
The power gains come from blood refilling right before the races. Like in the final 45 minutes before the start. And killer oxygen transport PEDs not yet on the banned list. Michele Ferrari knows all about gene therepy... and masking methodology that no one knows about.... Still in the game.... heck yeah he is.
Well, ALL OF YOU will tune into the Amgen (r-EPO) Tour of California and give them your ratings. And buy all that expensive cycling equipment, feeding the corrupt, fake sport sponsored by a broken fraud industry.
Pro sports are all doped. Pro sports are all fixed to some degree. It is TV soap Opera. "Q ratings"; public opinion determines the saga's direction. Not positive tests. Not public confessions, and not former riders admissions. Jorg Jaschke insisted that 100% doped on ALL the teams he was on. Where is he now? Is he on a team? Has anyone supported him?0 -
We're getting the old lines trotted out. Cyclingnews runs this quote from his agent Bob Stapleton: "Lance is the most tested athlete in sports history and he is certainly the most tested cyclist in the world since his return to the sport last year evidenced by no fewer than 16 unannounced out-of-competition tests since August all over the world."
Why do cyclingnews publish the quote without a challenge or a demand for them to verify it? As we know, the "most tested athlete" claim is pure bull. As for the most tested cyclist, I doubt it, since I reckon several cyclo-cross riders alone this winter will have undergone more tests by virtue of standing on the podium many times, plus a few out of competition tests. It's spin and deceit like this that frustrate me, the use of hype only makes them look Armstrong and Stapleton look shifty.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:
On the contrary. I think much of the comment is measured and the criticism specific.Blazing Saddles wrote:"On the back of the Valverde-Fuentes link being solidified, it's hard to imagine a blacker day for the sport, given that it's only February."
A bit dramatic, no? Given the sport has had Festina, Puerto on the eve of the 06 Tour, Vino booted mid-Tour, the yellow jersey hoicked off the Tour etc.
I'm not a fan - my mind was made up long ago, by lots of other evidence. So what does this add, what does it do to change my opinion? It's like someone found out Saddam used to kick his cat.
It's a PR own goal, but if anything the big story here is the (presumed) deficiencies of the bio-passport for the sport in general. Since this is what is meant to be cleaning it up.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Richrd2205 wrote:The Bio-passport's question marks arise from McQuaid et al's response thereto: it's catching lots of folk, it really works; it's catching no-one, cycling's clean! Repeat ad naseum...
What's its basis? Who's monitoring it? What're the boundaries? Where's the external scrutiny? etc etc. Might be starter questions for 10 for the bio-passport. As it stands, it's a concept with few, if any, firm parameters. Did it identify Ricco, Piepoli et al?
At best, it's in its infancy....
Cycling is only in big trouble if it has more positives. An apparently valid scheme with huge holes sorts this, no?
Please excuse my cycnicism, but the UCI haven't exactly been at the cutting edge of anti-doping have they?
I don't recall McQuaid talking about the bio-passport in those terms. As to how it works and how it is scrutinised, there are plenty of articles out there.
It didn't catch Ricco and Piepoli, as it wasn't up and running by that point. But do take the point that they were caught by target testing - either by a tip-off, or by someone studying their previous test results and seeing suspicious values, i.e. the same concept as the passport.
You sound like a politician trying to discredit something.
But you've made my point for me. Armstrong is signed up to the bio-passport, and if indeed there are flaws in this, it's a problem for every pro, not just him.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:I'm not a fan - my mind was made up long ago, by lots of other evidence. So what does this add, what does it do to change my opinion? It's like someone found out Saddam used to kick his cat.
The problem is he said things like "of course there were doubts" and this Catlin thing was supposed to help rid people of these doubts.
He wheeled Catlin out at the press conf announcing his comeback so it underpinned the whole thing. If I look at his answer to the question in Procycling he never intended to implement the pogramme at all
18/01/09
Armstrong confirmed Saturday that he and Catlin, the former chief of the UCLA anti-doping laboratory, had finally reached an agreement.
"It's underway and formalized," said Armstrong, who has been tested twice in Adelaide and a dozen times in the last few months by other entities. "If anyone has questions about performance this year, it can hopefully answer those questions."
According to a press release from Armstrong's Astana team, he will be tested every three days and Catlin will "issue reports" on an ongoing basis.
11/02/09
Don Catlin, the prominent antidoping scientist who was supposed to run Armstrong’s program, said Wednesday that they had decided earlier in the day to part ways, without Catlin’s analyzing a single blood or urine sample from Armstrong
What does underway mean?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
I cannot understand how some here are trying to justify Lance's actions, simply through forum sceptism over the internal testing programmes.
Surely, that's like saying Iain wields as more power in the cycling world, than Pat McQuaid.......
........OK, on second thoughts you may be right.......
He made a big PR show from a promise. A promise that after it had served it's purpose, was broken."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
He's posting the Damsgaard results
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... line-20366
But really, who gives a flying whatsit anymore.
”I have a lot of faith in Rasmus, and I am familiar with his system. I think it is an improvement, but I wouldn’t categorize it as being perfect or proof, than none of the riders are doped.” - Michael AshendenFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
The hematocrit results vary:
10/06/08 43.7%
10/16/08 39.3%
11/26/08 42.8%
12/03/08 41.9%
12/11/08 39.4%
12/18/08 42.1%
02/04/09 45.8%
I'm no expert but is this the expected natural variation? It would appear that Lance has been working hard over the winter months.0 -
I'm sure he's only doing it to wind the french up.0
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Those values look normal to me wasp707, but if they went any higher, then my eyebrows would be rising too.0
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I would imagine that it's convenient to have published evidence that your hematocrit level varies though.0
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Did someone say PR disaster? Looks like a 3 page thread on LA here that will keep going and going.....
As for testing, It's down to the sports governing body to eradicate the cheats, at least he tried and is in the process of setting up another 'simpler' testing system.
Taken from BR “Lance is the most tested athlete in sports history and he is certainly the most tested cyclist in the world since his return to the sport last year evidenced by no fewer than 16 unannounced out-of-competition tests since August all over the world. We will continue to do everything we can do to ensure transparency and honesty in his testing results.”
Personally I get fed up with all the BS that flies around about drugs in cycling, especially as most of the moaners are cyclists themselves. I am sure I read somewhere recently that if you totalled all the dopers in Cycling, athletics and swimming together it still falls short of the number of cheats caught in Rugby. Anyway I am off to Runners Radar and Swimming Radar to moan about the drugs in sport there......0 -
I quote from the Livestrong board under the online test results:
"Cold, hard proof of something I think we all knew
in our hearts to be true - Lance is amazing."
He certainly amazes me!___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Tempestas wrote:Did someone say PR disaster? Looks like a 3 page thread on LA here that will keep going and going.....
As for testing, It's down to the sports governing body to eradicate the cheats, at least he tried and is in the process of setting up another 'simpler' testing system.
Taken from BR “Lance is the most tested athlete in sports history and he is certainly the most tested cyclist in the world since his return to the sport last year evidenced by no fewer than 16 unannounced out-of-competition tests since August all over the world. We will continue to do everything we can do to ensure transparency and honesty in his testing results.”
Personally I get fed up with all the BS that flies around about drugs in cycling, especially as most of the moaners are cyclists themselves. I am sure I read somewhere recently that if you totalled all the dopers in Cycling, athletics and swimming together it still falls short of the number of cheats caught in Rugby. Anyway I am off to Runners Radar and Swimming Radar to moan about the drugs in sport there......
And to quote Iain... words fail me...___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Just read from Lance to Landis by Walsh- a surprisingly good, well argued read. It left me feeling in doubt that things are not all as they seem. Or actually maybe they are!When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells0
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What's the real reason for this?
Is it that it was all PR puff and he never intended to go through with it anyway?
Or is it just that the logistics turned out to be more difficult than envisaged?
Did Catlin prove to be less compliant than expected?
Or is it that after the TdU Lance isn't quite so confident of doing it clean?0 -
im speechless, I'm a lance fan but i really dont know what to think.
If it was me and i could clear my name and help my reputation and i was the face of a huge cancer charity then cost and logistics wouldnt be an issue.
Lance had the chance to buy back some integrity and to silence the doubters.
I dont understand why he wouldnt have his 99 samples tested again and i really dont understand this....
I guess that means he'll be winning the tour again then! :evil:0 -
are you all trying to say that if LA and Caitlin had progressed a system and posted the results online, then LA won the Giro and TDF you would have all changed from your catagoric view he doped to thinking he is clean rider.
absolute nonsense - you would all be of the view that he has in some way engineered Caitlin to lie.
He cannot win. I am not a fan by the way just looking at it objectively thats all0 -
I don't think anyone is saying that Camerone. His actions this year don't have any bearing on past years. Anyone could race clean in 2009 but behave differently a decade ago.
The point is that the comeback announcement promised this scheme as a key part of the return. It was designed to buy him a lot of goodwill and to silence any skeptics. Now that he's dropped this, it gives a truckload of ammunition to the doubters. Once again it looks like he's taking these things lightly, playing with them for media consumption.0 -
Kléber wrote:I don't think anyone is saying that Camerone. His actions this year don't have any bearing on past years. Anyone could race clean in 2009 but behave differently a decade ago.
The point is that the comeback announcement promised this scheme as a key part of the return. It was designed to buy him a lot of goodwill and to silence any skeptics. Now that he's dropped this, it gives a truckload of ammunition to the doubters. Once again it looks like he's taking these things lightly, playing with them for media consumption.
I entirely agree with your second paragraph. there are though two ways of looking at it 1)he made statements in good faith and it couldnt be inplemented practically 2) it was manufactured from outset to be good old LA spin... either way its not done him any favours - although as a previous post mentioned it nevertheless is PR - good or bad seems to work for him...
Reference first paragraph - If he was signed up with Caitlin and won TDF 2009 would you believe he was clean in 2009?
btw how do you quote part of a previous post I am such a useless IT ar5e...0 -
But HCT values vary with how hydrated you are, to get under the 50% rule saline drips were all you needed.
I honestly don't know where Pro cycling goes from here especially if Valverde is banned as well. No longer do we watch and enjoy bike racing, instead we have all become experts on pharam products and the soap oprea of who has/hasn't been caught this week.
Bring back old pre-1995 racing, it may have been a bit WWF but at least it was entertaining, this has he, hasn't it is just depressing and is ruining riders lives in a way drugs never did.0 -
eh wrote:But HCT values vary with how hydrated you are, to get under the 50% rule saline drips were all you needed.
I honestly don't know where Pro cycling goes from here especially if Valverde is banned as well. No longer do we watch and enjoy bike racing, instead we have all become experts on pharam [sic] products and the soap oprea of who has/hasn't been caught this week.
Bring back old pre-1995 racing, it may have been a bit WWF but at least it was entertaining, this has he, hasn't it is just depressing and is ruining riders lives in a way drugs never did.
Really? I've seen about 3 posters on this forum who know what they're talking about in that field.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
...straying from the point a bit....but the mess you allude to is of cycling's own making...0
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Kléber wrote:Those values look normal to me wasp707, but if they went any higher, then my eyebrows would be rising too.
Sept/Oct to February
LA's hematocrit varies by 6.5% (from a low of 39.3 to a high of 45.8 )
Basso's levels vary by 2.4% (from a low of 41.4 to a high of 43.8 )
His peak right after the TDU, which is raced virtually all at sea level, tends to make one wonder why the laymen/altitude comment should be given any credence.
If the TDU was anything more than light training, I would have expected to see the Feb 4th reading, not to be his highest."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
You three times. ;-)
It was pretty hot during the TdU. I'm just saying.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Kléber wrote:Those values look normal to me wasp707, but if they went any higher, then my eyebrows would be rising too.
Sept/Oct to February
LA's hematocrit varies by 6.5% (from a low of 39.3 to a high of 45.8 )
Basso's levels vary by 2.4% (from a low of 41.4 to a high of 43.8 )
His peak right after the TDU, which is raced virtually all at sea level, tends to make one wonder why the laymen/altitude comment should be given any credence.
If the TDU was anything more than light training, I would have expected to see the Feb 4th reading, not to be his highest.
... and this sort of comment is the reason that LA and others might regret putting test results online. What are your qualifications to make judgements about complex medical matters?
It is noticeable that the anti LA brigade still outnumbers those who respond to the probability that Valverde is likely to get his comeuppance.
The vitriol towards Armstrong is ridiculous. He's just a bike rider for god's sake! At worst he has been as guilty as all of the leading riders of his generation. At best he might just be clean.
Let's just get all of this into perspective. I don't see thread after thread castigating Mercx, or Anquetil.0 -
I don't see Merckx promising one thing to win over skeptics and then dumping it once he's got his comeback underway. But I see threads bemoaning doping, from Armstrong to Ricco to many, many more.Nickwill wrote:I don't see thread after thread castigating Mercx, or Anquetil.
And there will be plenty more once the bio passport prosecutions emerge soon.0
