Anybody not wear a helmet? Discuss....

greg66_tri_v2.0

WGWarburton wrote:

Hi,
No-one seems to have mentioned what seems to me to be a fundamental point:

Cycling isn't dangerous.

Nor's driving a racing car.

It's the crashing that's dangerous.

il_principe

Greg66 wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

It's funny how there is never this debate over skiing and helmets. I go far faster on skis than I do on a bike, so do many people, yet how many skiers do you see wearing helmets? Not many and I certainly don't - yet I reckon I'm more likely to fall on skis than I am on the bike...

Greg66 wrote:

Hold on. I *know* you've skied in Canada, so I know you must have seen a lot of helmeted skiers. In Whistler, the non-helmeted skiers are pretty rare now. Ditto snowboarders.

not back in '99

Greg66 wrote:

I started wearing a helmet skiing for precisely the reason you cite (and to avoid arguments with the kids over them wearing helmet if I didn't; which was unnecessary as they're mandatory at ski school in W). And since then I've had at least three *big* hits which have left me feeling very happy to have been wearing a helmet.

I'm pretty sure than Austria imposed mandatory helmets for all skiers under 14 only last month, following a fatal accident. I would guess they didn't impose a blanket measure for fear of being at a disadvantage to Switzerland & France.

You're a lawyer though, I'm cynical about this sort of knee jerk response... fear of being sued do you think?

Greg66 wrote:

Seriously jash, if you ski fast, you really should consider a helmet. They're not hot, heavy or crap. You can get bluetooth earpieces built into them. I'd never go out without mine now.

No can do, I'm helmet averse. Can honestly say though that in the 20 years I've been skiing for I've never had a crash that's made me think a helmet would help. Mind you I haven't fallen on piste for 6 years now - absurdly proud of that stat!

verloren

_Brun_ - Am I to understand that you're smart enough to see and avoid problems while cycling, but not smart enough to know not to rely on the additional margin of error that a helmet gives you?

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I also don't wear a helmet snowboarding. Nobody ever bugs me about that.

Step over here, young lady. I have a finger that's itching to do some wagging...

Yeah yeah... :roll:

I have never had an accident snowboarding that I felt would have been less painful had I been wearing a helmet. And I've had a fair few accidents, mostly due to excessive speed on unsuitable surfaces or excessive confidence in my landing skills. Most of the time there's that 'oh c0ck' moment that allows me time to shield my head.

Mind you, like Jash I haven't fallen over on-piste for 15 months. I also haven't been snowboarding since last December (2007).

il_principe

verloren wrote:

_Brun_ - Am I to understand that you're smart enough to see and avoid problems while cycling, but not smart enough to know not to rely on the additional margin of error that a helmet gives you?

This is exactly the attitude of so many helmet wearers. "Ooohhh look at me in my helmet and yellow jackets and 3 million flashy lights, I can jump this red light/cycle like a c0ck because I'm safer than you, because I have a helmet."

This quote sums it up for me:

I love cycling. Some people may have noticed this. I love the freedom, the pain, (perhaps more particularly, the sensation when the pain stops at the top of a climb), the speed and the countryside. I love having to think about what I’m doing in traffic. I love the great feeling of being alive that comes from a good cycle ride. There are two kinds of people: those who love cycling and those who are wrong.Walking helmet

I don’t love plastic hats, yet a tedious number of people who risk their lives by eating too much for their sedentary lifestyles, by not exercising enough or by stressing about other people’s wellbeing, seem to think that I and other cyclists am stupid for wearing a stylish cycling cap (well, I think it’s stylish) to keep the sun out of my eyes (at the moment the sun seems to be wet and forming puddles), rather than a plastic hat to act as some form of talisman.

http://www.shrimper.org.uk/sport/cycling/2008/07/09/do-you-wear-a-walking-helmet

Tempestas

I crashed the first time I wore one of the Polystyrene lids and was glad I changed from the old leather type, I crashed on a descent at around 40mph and apparently rolled and rolled and hit my head about 4 or 5 times. My bike was found about 10m's away from me and the only thing salvageable was the rear hub, even the brake callipers had been bent!! I suffered a dislocated shoulder and lost the skin on my front from the right nipple to my right knee, my left leg had another riders fork blade stuck in it, so it was a nasty crash My head however had a small cut where my sunglasses had cut me above my right eye and that was it, but once removed the helmet was inspected and they found lots of indentations under the plastic cover and a lot of cracks. I had a headache, but no other injuries, although the ones I did receive on my body took me a long time to recover from. The worst thing was it was a week before the national road race and I was absolutely flying at the time

wgwarburton

Greg66 writes:

> Nor's driving a racing car.
> It's the crashing that's dangerous.

Is crashing a racing car dangerous? I havn't looked into it, though I'm aware that it's got a lot safer over the last few decades.

I don't think it's particularly relevant, though... Crashing a bike is either not very common, not very dangerous or both, or many more cyclists would be KSI'd.

It's also worth bearing in mind when looking at the stats that they include all the eejits you see jumping red lights, riding without lights and generally acting the fool, as well as ignorant newbies who are riding "dangerously" without even knowing it...

Cheers,
W.

verloren

jashburnham wrote:

This is exactly the attitude of so many helmet wearers. "Ooohhh look at me in my helmet and yellow jackets and 3 million flashy lights, I can jump this red light/cycle like a c0ck because I'm safer than you, because I have a helmet."

I agree entirely. How does that make a helmet less valuable for you?

greg66_tri_v2.0

jashburnham wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Hold on. I *know* you've skied in Canada, so I know you must have seen a lot of helmeted skiers. In Whistler, the non-helmeted skiers are pretty rare now. Ditto snowboarders.

not back in '99

Go back there now. You can't move for helmets. Hell, even the pro bumps skiers I sometimes ski with wear them.

jashburnham wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

I started wearing a helmet skiing for precisely the reason you cite (and to avoid arguments with the kids over them wearing helmet if I didn't; which was unnecessary as they're mandatory at ski school in W). And since then I've had at least three *big* hits which have left me feeling very happy to have been wearing a helmet.

I'm pretty sure than Austria imposed mandatory helmets for all skiers under 14 only last month, following a fatal accident. I would guess they didn't impose a blanket measure for fear of being at a disadvantage to Switzerland & France.

You're a lawyer though, I'm cynical about this sort of knee jerk response... fear of being sued do you think?

Maybe in part. But maybe because they'd really rather have people not die on their slopes.

The story I was thinking of is here

jashburham wrote:

Can honestly say though that in the 20 years I've been skiing for I've never had a crash that's made me think a helmet would help. Mind you I haven't fallen on piste for 6 years now - absurdly proud of that stat!

Well thinking back, one of mine was on a dual GS course - I caught an edge on a rut on the apex of the turn, basically tripped and flipped outwards onto my shoulder and head, skidded across onto the parallel course to receive my competitor's boot in the back of my head at high speed. Not nice. Another was getting caught out at speed by a ridge in fog that I didn't see. 20m flight resulting in a real yard sale. Took a really hard smack on the right front quarter of my head. Also not nice. MrsG came over a lip in a bumps field to find a river bed had opened up - in she went head first.

So yes, staying upright on the piste will protect your head just fine, but I'll bet you pretty much any sum you like that you don't stay on the piste all day every day...

il_principe

Because it's a horrid invention that I don't want to spoil my enjoyment of pootling around London. And because I don't want to be dictated to by sanctimonious know it alls, and because I've been riding for 8 years and only had 2 crashes (both while wearing a helemt and neither of which involved my head impacting with anything.)

il_principe

I take your point Greg, but I stand by my stats, 20 years and never any need of a helmet. As for off piste - I'll take a guide if doing it but in reality I'm an on piste carving speed merchant.

When I did my instructors course back in 99 no-one on the course wore a helmet, there wasn't even mention of one in the literature in those days. 110 a8 year olds for 3 months and we had no crashes that resulted in head injuries although on guy did manage to impale his cheek on a ski tip, missing his eye by a few mil, we were banned from the really big jumps after that but still no mention of helmets. I'm sure people are just more worried about things than they used to be.

walkernomore

Seriously jash, if you ski fast, you really should consider a helmet. They're not hot, heavy or crap. [bYou can get bluetooth earpieces built into them.[/b] I'd never go out without mine now.[/quote]


Sorry, and this is not aimed at the author personally, but isnt the hypocritical bollocks that attaches to this debate brought out perfectly in the above paragraph?

always_tyred

Another interesting repeat occurrence in these threads is the link between helmet wearing and complacency. i.e. You wear a helmet, you feel safer, you take more risks.

That is such a strange construct.

Why not - you are paranoid and fearful, you wear a helmet. You think you are invincible and are able to anticipate danger, so you don't bother to wear a helmet. That seems more logical to me.

Feltup

I've had one head injury from skiing and snowboarding but a helmet wouldn't have saved me unless perhaps it was a full face helmet as I broke my jaw with my knee.

A lady in the resort managed to scalp herself with a branch. The doctor said he had never seen anyone remove the top of their head so effectively and confessed he was unsure what he was going to do to reattach it. A helmet would have helped her.

lost_in_thought

Feltup wrote:

I broke my jaw with my knee.

A lady in the resort managed to scalp herself with a branch.

Now those are some mad skills. Seriously. Wow.

Out of curiosity, was the knee-jaw-breaker incident on skis or a snowboard?

greg66_tri_v2.0

jashburnham wrote:

I take your point Greg, but I stand by my stats, 20 years and never any need of a helmet. As for off piste - I'll take a guide if doing it but in reality I'm an on piste carving speed merchant.

When I did my instructors course back in 99 no-one on the course wore a helmet, there wasn't even mention of one in the literature in those days. 110 a8 year olds for 3 months and we had no crashes that resulted in head injuries although on guy did manage to impale his cheek on a ski tip, missing his eye by a few mil, we were banned from the really big jumps after that but still no mention of helmets. I'm sure people are just more worried about things than they used to be.

Things have changed big time. I did my instructors in 2005 and they were all over helmets like a rash.

Actually, that's a lie. Well, the last bit is. There was no mention of helmets in any of the course materials (except, I think, making sure kids wore them). And a couple of my mates did their level 1 last season and nothing had changed about recommending helmets to adults (although I see that at least they sell them on the CSIA website).

FWIW, I used much prefer riding and skiing without a helmet. And I've only once, in 18 years of riding, come off. Maybe I won't in the future. Who knows? But now I do wear them, I'd never go back to not wearing them. Although I would be around to feel bad about it, I would feel bad (if you see what I mean) if my family was left thinking "he'd have been ok if he'd had a helmet on".

In the end, its always your call. I just think back to the blancmange and the dribbling

il_principe

lost_in_thought wrote:

Feltup wrote:

I broke my jaw with my knee.

A lady in the resort managed to scalp herself with a branch.

Now those are some mad skills. Seriously. Wow.

Out of curiosity, was the knee-jaw-breaker incident on skis or a snowboard?

"Gnarly moguls man"

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

I take your point Greg, but I stand by my stats, 20 years and never any need of a helmet. As for off piste - I'll take a guide if doing it but in reality I'm an on piste carving speed merchant.

When I did my instructors course back in 99 no-one on the course wore a helmet, there wasn't even mention of one in the literature in those days. 110 a8 year olds for 3 months and we had no crashes that resulted in head injuries although on guy did manage to impale his cheek on a ski tip, missing his eye by a few mil, we were banned from the really big jumps after that but still no mention of helmets. I'm sure people are just more worried about things than they used to be.

Things have changed big time. I did my instructors in 2005 and they were all over helmets like a rash.

When I did my SSBS instructors (snowboard) in Switzerland in 2002, there was no mention made of helmets. The people who were on the halfpipe or the big kickers often wear them, but rarely the others.

However, interestingly as a reflection of different cultures, I went to that awful indoor slope thing in milton keynes a couple of years ago and was told I wasn't allowed to go over the 2foot kicker because I didn't have a helmet.

FFS.

lost_in_thought

jashburnham wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Feltup wrote:

I broke my jaw with my knee.

A lady in the resort managed to scalp herself with a branch.

Now those are some mad skills. Seriously. Wow.

Out of curiosity, was the knee-jaw-breaker incident on skis or a snowboard?

"Gnarly moguls man"

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

il_principe

Health and Safety Britain.

Let's all stay indoors and eat pies.

always_tyred

LiT = Europe
JB and Greg66 = North America.

Hello? May contain traces of nuts, contents may be hot?

prawny

jashburnham wrote:

I take your point Greg, but I stand by my stats, 20 years and never any need of a helmet.

Hmm that does remind me of the famous dale earnheart(sp?) quote something along the lines of I don't need to wear a HANS device I've racing for x number of years and I've never had a brain stem seperation. I can't find the original quote.

Not lecturing though like you say each to there own. Just be wary of tempting fate she hangs around with the pxncture fairy, vicious cows :evil:

edit : Found it

Dale Earnhardt: HANS Device

Though many racing experts touted the HANS (head and neck safety) helmet-restraint system at the turn of the millennium, NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt was not among them.
"Earnhardt was pretty much the ringleader against it," racing journalist Ed Hinton recalled. "He once refered to the HANS device as, quote, 'that damned noose.' His commonsense told him if you wore straps around your helmet and you got in a crash it was going to hang you. So he refered to it as the noose because he thought it was going to kill him rather than save him...

"He sat right here in Indianapolis [in August 2000] and he looked me in the eye and, with a lot of people present, he said, 'I'm comfortable the way I've got my stuff rigged, and I have not pulled my brain stem loose and I've hit the wall many times.' I have not pulled my brain stem loose - his exact words... And I looked him back in the eye and my thought was, 'Yet.'"

Tragically, Dale Earnhardt died after hitting the wall during the Daytona 500 in February 2001. The cause of Earnhardt's death? "Basilar skull fracture from restrained torso, unrestrained head."

greg66_tri_v2.0

walkernomore wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Seriously jash, if you ski fast, you really should consider a helmet. They're not hot, heavy or crap. [bYou can get bluetooth earpieces built into them.[/b] I'd never go out without mine now.

Sorry, and this is not aimed at the author personally, but isnt the hypocritical bollocks that attaches to this debate brought out perfectly in the above paragraph?

Sorry, but the subtlety of your observation is a bit beyond me. Care to amplify?

Always Tyred wrote:

Another interesting repeat occurrence in these threads is the link between helmet wearing and complacency. i.e. You wear a helmet, you feel safer, you take more risks.

I'm not sure the third step follows.

Isn't the line: You have a risk, you wear a helmet, you do something to reduce the risk. The initial risk level may vary from person to person, obviously.

I'm not sure anyone has claimed that wearing a helmet has made them take more risks than they have taken previously.

il_principe

prawny wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

I take your point Greg, but I stand by my stats, 20 years and never any need of a helmet.

Hmm that does remind me of the famous dale earnheart(sp?) quote something along the lines of I don't need to wear a HANS device I've racing for x number of years and I've never had a brain stem seperation. I can't find the original quote.

Not lecturing though like you say each to there own. Just be wary of tempting fate she hangs around with the pxncture fairy, vicious cows :evil:

I did my dissertation on hubris, don't worry fella I know what I'm doing.

lost_in_thought

Always Tyred wrote:

LiT = Europe
JB and Greg66 = North America.

Hello? May contain traces of nuts, contents may be hot?

True true...

If only you could ski in the deep south....

'Hold my beer and watch this'

lost_in_thought

jashburnham wrote:

Health and Safety Britain.

Let's all stay indoors and eat pies.

Mmmmm pie.

il_principe

Always Tyred wrote:

LiT = Europe
JB and Greg66 = North America.

Hello? May contain traces of nuts, contents may be hot?

Well Canada actually

TBH I'm usually to be found in Europe, mostly in Zermatt.

mmm Zermatt....

I wanna go skiing now!

:evil:

_Brun_

lost_in_thought wrote:

If only you could ski in the deep south....

'Hold my beer and watch this'

I'm pretty confident those exact words were spoken in parts of Sussex and Kent earlier this week.

prawny

jashburnham wrote:

prawny wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

I take your point Greg, but I stand by my stats, 20 years and never any need of a helmet.

Hmm that does remind me of the famous dale earnheart(sp?) quote something along the lines of I don't need to wear a HANS device I've racing for x number of years and I've never had a brain stem seperation. I can't find the original quote.

Not lecturing though like you say each to there own. Just be wary of tempting fate she hangs around with the pxncture fairy, vicious cows :evil:

I did my dissertation on hubris, don't worry fella I know what I'm doing.

Oh cool I was only thinking about hubris this morning - I was thinking I wonder what hubris actually means :oops: I shall look it up

walkernomore

Greg66 wrote:

walkernomore wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Seriously jash, if you ski fast, you really should consider a helmet. They're not hot, heavy or crap. [bYou can get bluetooth earpieces built into them.[/b] I'd never go out without mine now.

Sorry, and this is not aimed at the author personally, but isnt the hypocritical bollocks that attaches to this debate brought out perfectly in the above paragraph?

Sorry, but the subtlety of your observation is a bit beyond me. Care to amplify?


Sorry - people put a helmet on their head, but at the same time make the world a more dangerous place for both themselves and (the bit that IS my business) for others by rendering themselves deaf/hearing impaired with earphones.