What difference do tyres actually make?

Cantdosleepy

So I've just been noodling around on the internet reading various bits including a review of my bike. One of the cons is that apparently the 'Tyres are slow' and the reviewer said s/he stuck on some quicker ones, "if only for quicker acceleration from the lights to beat all the Bromptons."

Now this might be crazy talk, but I can't imagine tyres making that big a difference. Going from knobbly huge MTB ones to pro racing slicks must make a large difference, but is there really that big a performance boost going from one more-or-less treadless tyre to an even-more treadless model?

How significant an actual gain do you get from moving to a faster tyre? Have you noticed a significant improvement in speed with new tyres? Did you convince yourself that you had?

alfablue

I think light weight tyres can give much better acceleration - the mass is on the outside of the rim and the heavier the tyre the more effort is required to get that weight up to speed. Once on the move, any speed differences will be more to do with the rolling resistance of the tyre, and maybe its aero properties.

zanes

Yes, they can make a huge difference. Going from no name (slick) tyres to conti gp4000's and vittoria rubino pros on my road bike made a huge difference, bike is now more eager, better handling and faster all around.

Rich158

Mass makes a huge difference especially when it's at the rim. What also makes a difference is the suppleness of the tyre. A very stiff tyre will give a harsher ride due to it's inability to deflect over small bumps, potholes and ridges in the road, this also has the effect of slowing you down as the wheel has to efectively move up and over the obstacle, which includes moving you and the bike. A more supple tyre has the ability to deflect over any minor imperfections in the road surface, thus maintaining your momentum.

The rubber compound also plays a part, a softer rubber will give more grip due to increased friction, but will also roll slower and wear faster than a hard one. Most manufacturers now make at least one high end tyre with different compounds on the edges and the centre section to get arround this problem, however there can be a marked transition between little grip, and then grip when leaning into a corner that puts some people, including myself, off this approach.

Cantdosleepy

What do you mean by 'eager'?

ednino

Put on some supersonic Continental race kings and you'll see the difference for yourself

MrChuck

Also cheaper tyres might have steel beads so they'll be significantly heavier than folding ones, and as others have said it's at exactly the point where it counts the most.

Bassjunkieuk

I'm currently on my third different set of tyres on my road bike that I use for the commute. It came with Michelin Dynamics which seemed to work well, until I was visited by the PF several times on one week!

I then switched over to Schwalbe Marathon +'s and can't remember really noticing any difference in the ride (as I commented on here when I got them about 7 months ago) I was aware they where heavy tyres but as I was on a fairly low end bike and wasn't an experienced rider I didn't think it would matter much........

Having been a good boy this year I thought it was time to start upgrading and got some new wheels for Xmas (thanks to the wife!) Not wanting to re-use the SM+'s as the rear was looking quite bald (it was practically a slick down the middle for anyone aware of these tyres so rather worn!) I had a read about tyres on here and choose some Conti Gator Skins after some good recommendations for there price and performance on a commute machine.

Boy was I surprised by the difference! Now I can't say how much of this is down to the tyres and what is down to the new, slightly lighter and better quality wheel (Mavic Aksiums) but the difference in acceleration and ride feel was astounding. By comparision the ride of the SM+'s felt rather dead, probably due to the puncture resistance strip on the central area of the tyre. Getting the bike up to 30mph on the flat now seems a lot easier and I'd almost fallen back in love with the bike thanks to the lively ride! I have yet to put the tyres grip to the test as I don't feel like crashing but I'm gradually building up my cornering speeds :-)

il_principe

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

Having been a good boy this year I thought it was time to start upgrading and got some new wheels for Xmas (thanks to the wife!) Not wanting to re-use the SM+'s as the rear was looking quite bald (it was practically a slick down the middle for anyone aware of these tyres so rather worn!) I had a read about tyres on here and choose some Conti Gator Skins after some good recommendations for there price and performance on a commute machine.

Boy was I surprised by the difference! Now I can't say how much of this is down to the tyres and what is down to the new, slightly lighter and better quality wheel (Mavic Aksiums) but the difference in acceleration and ride feel was astounding. By comparision the ride of the SM+'s felt rather dead, probably due to the puncture resistance strip on the central area of the tyre. Getting the bike up to 30mph on the flat now seems a lot easier and I'd almost fallen back in love with the bike thanks to the lively ride! I have yet to put the tyres grip to the test as I don't feel like crashing but I'm gradually building up my cornering speeds :-)

Interesting - I've always thought the gatorskins were a bit heavy. If you ever try any Conti GP4000S' or Michelin Pro Race 2's or 3's I'd be interested to hear what the difference is.

Bassjunkieuk

jashburnham wrote:

Interesting - I've always thought the gatorskins were a bit heavy. If you ever try any Conti GP4000S' or Michelin Pro Race 2's or 3's I'd be interested to hear what the difference is.

I think quoted weight was around the 280/300g mark according to wiggle, compared to the 800g, so I'm saving about half a kilo by using the GS!

Once I wear out the GS's or when I get a summer bike I'd love to give those tyres a try (I was thinking about the Pro Races, only because I could get Red/Black to match my bike!) but for a commute machine on my budget the GS where ideal.

batch78

I think quoted weight was around the 280/300g mark according to wiggle, compared to the 800g, so I'm saving about half a kilo by using the GS!

300g - 25c Gators
320g - 28c

580g - 25c Marathan +
800g - 32c

Have you used a smaller tyre aswell now?

Just interested as in my experiance, narrower tyres are quicker but less comfortable, you seem to say this is not the case with Gatorskins?

Might consider some 4000s for the summer, 115g per tyre saving over my Blizzards.

roger_merriman

the M+'s are rather stiff so i'd imagine most tires are more comftable.

linsen

I find tyres make a massive difference - terribly rough ride without them

vorsprung

batch78 wrote:

Just interested as in my experiance, narrower tyres are quicker but less comfortable

You are of course correct but the reasons are quite complicated

If there was a mythical tyre that was two different widths but the same weight etc then for the same tyre pressure the rolling resistance would be the same. This is because the weight being born by the tyre would be on the same area. The area would be a different shape for the two tyres. Some people think that the shape of the load bearing area touching the road is better on the wider tyres and has a slightly lower rolling resistance. At over 25mph there might be a tiny wind resistance saving for the narrower one.

However, what usually happens is that wider tyres are heavier, have a lower max pressure that they can take and use a slower compound than narrow tyres. It is a composite effect of these factors and the weight which make narrower tyres seem faster.

If you can find a wide-ish tyre that has a good compound and low weight and will take the pressure you would be using regardless then it isn't really too bad,

I like to ride 28mm tyres as they are more comfortable. There isn't much choice of kevlar beaded tyres with a reasonably good compound. If only there were 28mm michellin pro race (there aren't)

spen666

Is that what that Smiths song was about
"What Difference does it make"


I never realised it was about your bike tyres

Bassjunkieuk

batch78 wrote:

I think quoted weight was around the 280/300g mark according to wiggle, compared to the 800g, so I'm saving about half a kilo by using the GS!

300g - 25c Gators
320g - 28c

580g - 25c Marathan +
800g - 32c

Have you used a smaller tyre aswell now?

Just interested as in my experiance, narrower tyres are quicker but less comfortable, you seem to say this is not the case with Gatorskins?

Might consider some 4000s for the summer, 115g per tyre saving over my Blizzards.

I've been using 25c tyre's so I was at 1060g for the M+'s and now 600g for the GS, so not quite as big a saving as I originally estimated but still a good saving :-)
As I said tho the new tyres went on with new wheels (replacing the stock Alex DA22 rims) but from what I've managed to find online about wheel weights (the DA's are a custom build for Giant so Alex don't have a quoted full wheel weight, luckily I found an old post of someone replacing them who weighed them when removed) I don't think I was saving much on the new wheels weight wise.

The ride certainly seems more lively, having come from 6 months on the M+'s and having a chance to take the new tyres/wheels over familiar routes they feel much nicer :-)

zanes

Cantdosleepy wrote:

What do you mean by 'eager'?

My bike now accelerates with less effort, and is easier to maintain "high" (22+mph) speeds for longer on my commute.

Bassjunkieuk

zanes wrote:

Cantdosleepy wrote:

What do you mean by 'eager'?

My bike now accelerates with less effort, and is easier to maintain "high" (22+mph) speeds for longer on my commute.

I'd certainly say I've experienced that, this evening I got a very fortunate run of lights on my way home and maintained 25+mph along the first half mile or so, twas huge fun :-D

fossyant

Stick Pro Race or GP4000 / Schwalbe Ultremo on...... oh you'll notice the difference over any other tyre...... believe you me.....but not exactly ideal for commuting..

I use Pro Race - excellent, like the others, grippy, fast, comfy...... but not the thickest, although I've been pretty 'hole' free with them......

Conti Gators might be the fast/commuter tyre...but won't quite compete.

A crap tyre makes a huge difference to how the bike feels - I've tried all sorts over the years, but the best tyres make your bike feel alive. Comfort is there as they flex more as well.

simon_e

Cantdosleepy wrote:

So I've just been noodling around on the internet reading various bits including a review of my bike.

This is not always a good idea.

apparently the 'Tyres are slow'

Everything in life is relative, and don't believe everything you read on t'internet.

If you don't mind the tyres (inanimate objects) being "slow" then just keep riding on them until they wear out. Lighter tyres with e.g. higher TPI will be more supple and roll better, but you may not notice or even care. There's no obligation to follow the 'must upgrade' mantra.

I put heavier tyres on my SCR, but that's because I care more about puncture resistance than light weight when commuting. I really don't want to be sitting on the roadside at 8:30 in 2 degree drizzle with the traffic passing by and me cursing a thorn. This is what I'm (not) missing. I have some Rubino Pro IIs waiting for the spring. I'm hoping they will feel lighter and therefore somehow quicker but I won't cry if I can't really tell. Still, a pair cost me less than Pro 3s and 4000s cost each

Some people can't sleep worrying about their tyre pressures. In the summer I did the local 10 mile TTs on these heavy tyres with only 40 psi on board. Pumped them up to 85 the following week but I actually went slower! I don't think the extra pressure *made* me slower but equally it didn't set my bike on fire either.

I have no issue with people spending what they wish to upgrade their bike, I just don't like the assertion that it's necessary for us all to shun perfectly acceptable gear and purchase stuff that is shinier, lighter, faster, blingier(?)... In the end the bike's only as quick as the rider.

DonDaddyD

I went from the stock Kenda tyres that came with the '08 (Giant) SCR 3 and upgraded them to Conti GP4000s.

The improvement was noticeable the moment I jumped on the bike. I had no basis or expectation of what the improvement might be:

The tyres offered far more puncture resistance (I'm 'heavy' - 14/15stone - so one puncture in 6months of commuting and social rides is incredibly impressive).

It's easier to achieve high speeds - this should never be overlooked - it's not just the weight, its the rolling resistance and increased grip you get from quality tyres.

My ability roll faster for longer makes going longer distances easier meaning I can go further and ride longer.

The amount of grip whether wet or dry is astonishing. Obviously if the weather is greasy or icy the grip is diminished but still very grippy.

Arguably the best upgrade I made for commuting by bike and single biggest thing that got me so interested in road bikes.

always_tyred

The differences in weight are generally over stated, in my experience. Not when you are comparing 28c's weight 400g and 23c's weighing 190g, obviously, but I honestly don't think that mere mortals can tell the difference between 20g on your tyres, or whether or not you have foldable or wire beads. I mean, do you notice that you get faster as they wear out? Of course not.

The differences you feel when riding are more to do with how supple and grippy they are, imo. There are "training" tyres that have a bit more rubber and a hard compund that weigh more or less the same as, for example, GP4000's - Michelin Lithions? I can't remember - anyway, one makes my road bike feel like a road bike, the other makes it feel like a bone shaker commuter.

Cantdosleepy

Thanks for all the advice, guys!

Sewinman

Simon E wrote:

I have no issue with people spending what they wish to upgrade their bike, I just don't like the assertion that it's necessary for us all to shun perfectly acceptable gear and purchase stuff that is shinier, lighter, faster, blingier(?)... In the end the bike's only as quick as the rider.

+1000

zanes

Sewinman wrote:

Simon E wrote:

I have no issue with people spending what they wish to upgrade their bike, I just don't like the assertion that it's necessary for us all to shun perfectly acceptable gear and purchase stuff that is shinier, lighter, faster, blingier(?)... In the end the bike's only as quick as the rider.

+1000

Normally, I'd agree with that (I ride a £400 roadie) except on this occasion I don't, for two main reasons.

1. What's the difference in price between a cheap tyre, and a more "premium" one (no, not the difference between the cheapest one on crc, and the most expensive one on wiggle)? iirc I'd have saved about £10-15 per wheel by buying cheaper tyres than my GP4000's I run atm. Not alot in the great scheme of biking (a jersey per pair max?)

2. Tyres are your only point of contact with the road. Without tyres, you having nothing. No brakes, no acceleration, no cornering. With this in mind, I'd rather not save a little on purchase price, and come to regret it later.

It's like my new wheels. Do I have enough performance to justify them? Probably not. Could I have saved money by buying a cheaper pair from the LBS? Probably. Did I want a pair that I will be happy with, can run without thinking "Do they need adjusting, is the front out of true, what's that noise?". Yes, absolutely. I had the money, so I treated myself. Did I buy the most expensive carbon, ceramic racing pair I could find? No! But, they should last well.

Having said this, I only bought the tyres and wheels because the old ones were wearing out/knackered (having a flat because the tyre has worn a hole is *not* fun, trust me)

always_tyred

There is an unfortunate general inverse relationship between how nice a tyre feels to ride (including grip) and longevity.

Do NOT go for ultralights like Conti-supersonics. They are truly supersonic, but they are worn out cycling to the end of your driveway.

But all of the other £20-£25 a pop tyres are somewhat comparable. I'm a personal fan of Conti's - Attack/Force are pretty good value as a pair. Some places give you a marginal discount for buying a pair.

You get better life if you switch the front and rear tyres when you start to see a flatish track on the rear tyre (not too flat, obviously, because you will feel it when you corner once installed on the front).

ride_whenever

AT, the tyre swapping advice is not too sensible. Your best bet it to run the rear tyre into the ground, then replace the front and move the old front tyre to the rear.

The rest of the post is quite good though. There are a few grippy tyre compounds that have a bit better life than the length of the driveway! But I can't think of any off the top of my head.

DonDaddyD

Always Tyred wrote:

The differences in weight are generally over stated, in my experience. Not when you are comparing 28c's weight 400g and 23c's weighing 190g, obviously, but I honestly don't think that mere mortals can tell the difference between 20g on your tyres, or whether or not you have foldable or wire beads. I mean, do you notice that you get faster as they wear out? Of course not.

The differences you feel when riding are more to do with how supple and grippy they are, imo. There are "training" tyres that have a bit more rubber and a hard compund that weigh more or less the same as, for example, GP4000's - Michelin Lithions? I can't remember - anyway, one makes my road bike feel like a road bike, the other makes it feel like a bone shaker commuter.

Hasn't this (and weight is a part of this) got to do with how much surface of the tyre is designed to be in contact with the road - this is also tied to rolling resistance.

Cheaper, hearvier tyres have more flat surface area in contact with the road, more surface area in contact with the road = more friction, less rolling resistance and ultimately more weight. = Slower tyres

Less surface area in contact with the road, less friction, higher rolling resistance and less weight. = Faster tyres.

always_tyred

ride_whenever wrote:

AT, the tyre swapping advice is not too sensible. Your best bet it to run the rear tyre into the ground, then replace the front and move the old front tyre to the rear.

The rest of the post is quite good though. There are a few grippy tyre compounds that have a bit better life than the length of the driveway! But I can't think of any off the top of my head.

That works too, but not if you are buying in pairs.

I've ridden some pretty ropey flat spotted tyres and never honestly felt the flat spot when cornering. But some people are bothered by this - or the thought of this.

In practise, I find that I run the rear right into the ground, get a spate of punctures which tell me that I'm close to the carcass, and realise that it will be a short time before my front tyre is in the same state and replace them both.

DonDaddyD

ride_whenever wrote:

AT, the tyre swapping advice is not too sensible. Your best bet it to run the rear tyre into the ground, then replace the front and move the old front tyre to the rear.

I don't know if either suggestion is beneficial in Attack/Force's case (I also don't think Attack/Force is an upgrade that should be taken lightly).

The front tyre is thinner than the back tyre and they've been purposely designed that way. So if you have 2 Force tyres or 2 attack tyres on your bike - you're not really getting the benefits of Attack/Force (they are two different tyres one designed for the back wheel and the other designed for the front to maximise performance).

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

ride_whenever wrote:

AT, the tyre swapping advice is not too sensible. Your best bet it to run the rear tyre into the ground, then replace the front and move the old front tyre to the rear.

I don't know if either suggestion is beneficial in Attack/Force's case (I also don't think Attack/Force is an upgrade that should be taken lightly).

The front tyre is thinner than the back tyre and they've been purposely designed that way. So if you have 2 Force tyres or 2 attack tyres on your bike - you're not really getting the benefits of Attack/Force (they are two different tyres one designed for the back wheel and the other designed for the front to maximise performance).

Yep, they're even diff widths 22 at the front and 24 at the back.